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Air Changes | Developer Corner

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Hey Everyone! I am back this week to talk to you a bit about some changes we are making to air management and combat. The first thing I want to get out of the way is that this is not a “Man the Guns” style rework of combat and management systems. Our focus on air changes have mostly revolved around quality of life and balance changes to existing systems, while largely maintaining the structures people are familiar with (with a couple of exceptions). So, let's get into it!

Starting off with a QoL change I am very happy about: Simplified Wing Deployment. Anyone who has experience with managing air wings probably has some complaints about how deploying wings works. The live system requires three clicks in the best case (four if you include choosing a base) to deploy a single wing into an empty airbase. In the worst case this requires more clicks and doing some math for creating a large wing that can later be divided evenly. Now, we are adding quick deploy buttons to the air base UI to allow deployment of a wing in a single click. We are also keeping the old deployment menu for more advanced deployment options. Also, in this menu, we have simplified the flow for deploying single and multiple wings at once.

WIP UI design of simplified wing deployment tools. Note the art style here is not indicative of a change in art direction for our UI. In the first image we see the setup that can be done to select fast deploy options from any air base.
image2.png



In the second Image we see the newer version of quick deploy within the advanced deployment menu. You now have a set of filters to only show planes of a specific type, and you can now set the reinforce preference on all of the wings you are about to deploy, or individual ones.



image1.png


One of the most visible changes to air management, and hopefully a big quality of life improvement for most people, is the addition of Air Groups. The first thing I want to say is this is not Army Groups or Fleets. For now, and the foreseeable future, we are not adding Air Marshals or any sort of mechanical impact to using Air Groups. Air Groups are an organizational structure and nothing more. What it will do is enable the grouping and selection of multiple air wings across multiple locations bases for easier management. These groups will be displayed when in the air map mode so that you do not have to hunt down your wings on the map when you want to interact with them.

A very much WIP view of our current air groups
image3.png


Of the changes we are making, one of the most notable is moving to standardized/fixed wing sizes. This change comes with a loss of flexibility in some situations and makes managing smaller numbers of airplanes a bit more complicated. However, I think that real air combat in HoI4 is measured in thousands of airplanes and not dozens. We are currently looking at 100 sized wings for most aircraft, with size 10 wings for a few specific equipment types(scout plans, CV planes, ect). This allows us to streamline wing deployment and some other management stuff such as not having AI take up weird percentages of air bases. It also makes balance easier and fixes a few exploit cases. This may take some getting used to but I feel it improves the overall experience of managing large numbers of aircraft.

The final change I want to discuss today is an addition to the combat system. We are adding a new mechanic for intercepting planes in regions enroute to their target. In most cases, engaging planes in their target region will still be most effective. But in others, such as when range is a factor, the region being crossed has a bunch of engagement and spotting bonuses, and in a few other cases leaning into combat in an intermediary region can be a good idea.

Beyond these more concrete changes we are doing a balance pass on existing air combat mechanics. A lot of this is still too WIP to discuss, but I would like to highlight one of our objectives which is decoupling agility and speed with more impact given to speed in later air superiority fighter designs, but more on that at a later date.

As always, I wish you all the best and don't hesitate to tell us how these changes make you feel.

Until next time o7
 
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You now have a set of filters to only show planes of a specific type
THANK FORNICATION.

On a different note, when the BIG Air Overhaul comes in the future, will there be a "Bomber Escort" mission for fighters, instead of just Air Intercept and Air Superiority?
 
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I have a concern here, about modelling some of the earlier air battles in the war.

Specifically, the Winter War where the Finnish air force was significantly outnumbered but was able to hold its own.

And one of the iconic campaigns, the Battle of Britain, at the most intense, involved hundreds, not thousands of aircraft in the air simultaneously.

And RAF Bomber Command was only ever able to field just over 1000 heavies for any given night.

My concern is that mechanics that favour campaigns with thousands of aircraft might drastically change the ability of the game to model (model, not simulate) historical and close-alt-historical settings.
This is also a concern I have; it feels like a change that focuses solely on a handful of vanilla nations at the detriment of everyone else and I don't quite like the mindset.

Also in regards to fixed wing sizes, that is simply terrible and I hope the team cuts it ASAP. Leave that up to players/mods to decide. Also also Air Designer please :)
 
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View attachment 840453

Hey Everyone! I am back this week to talk to you a bit about some changes we are making to air management and combat. The first thing I want to get out of the way is that this is not a “Man the Guns” style rework of combat and management systems. Our focus on air changes have mostly revolved around quality of life and balance changes to existing systems, while largely maintaining the structures people are familiar with (with a couple of exceptions). So, let's get into it!

Starting off with a QoL change I am very happy about: Simplified Wing Deployment. Anyone who has experience with managing air wings probably has some complaints about how deploying wings works. The live system requires three clicks in the best case (four if you include choosing a base) to deploy a single wing into an empty airbase. In the worst case this requires more clicks and doing some math for creating a large wing that can later be divided evenly. Now, we are adding quick deploy buttons to the air base UI to allow deployment of a wing in a single click. We are also keeping the old deployment menu for more advanced deployment options. Also, in this menu, we have simplified the flow for deploying single and multiple wings at once.

WIP UI design of simplified wing deployment tools. Note the art style here is not indicative of a change in art direction for our UI. In the first image we see the setup that can be done to select fast deploy options from any air base.
View attachment 840448


In the second Image we see the newer version of quick deploy within the advanced deployment menu. You now have a set of filters to only show planes of a specific type, and you can now set the reinforce preference on all of the wings you are about to deploy, or individual ones.



View attachment 840449

One of the most visible changes to air management, and hopefully a big quality of life improvement for most people, is the addition of Air Groups. The first thing I want to say is this is not Army Groups or Fleets. For now, and the foreseeable future, we are not adding Air Marshals or any sort of mechanical impact to using Air Groups. Air Groups are an organizational structure and nothing more. What it will do is enable the grouping and selection of multiple air wings across multiple locations bases for easier management. These groups will be displayed when in the air map mode so that you do not have to hunt down your wings on the map when you want to interact with them.

A very much WIP view of our current air groups
View attachment 840450


Of the changes we are making, one of the most notable is moving to standardized/fixed wing sizes. This change comes with a loss of flexibility in some situations and makes managing smaller numbers of airplanes a bit more complicated. However, I think that real air combat in HoI4 is measured in thousands of airplanes and not dozens. We are currently looking at 100 sized wings for most aircraft, with size 10 wings for a few specific equipment types(scout plans, CV planes, ect). This allows us to streamline wing deployment and some other management stuff such as not having AI take up weird percentages of air bases. It also makes balance easier and fixes a few exploit cases. This may take some getting used to but I feel it improves the overall experience of managing large numbers of aircraft.

The final change I want to discuss today is an addition to the combat system. We are adding a new mechanic for intercepting planes in regions enroute to their target. In most cases, engaging planes in their target region will still be most effective. But in others, such as when range is a factor, the region being crossed has a bunch of engagement and spotting bonuses, and in a few other cases leaning into combat in an intermediary region can be a good idea.

Beyond these more concrete changes we are doing a balance pass on existing air combat mechanics. A lot of this is still too WIP to discuss, but I would like to highlight one of our objectives which is decoupling agility and speed with more impact given to speed in later air superiority fighter designs, but more on that at a later date.

As always, I wish you all the best and don't hesitate to tell us how these changes make you feel.

Until next time o7
Will you rework the oob of the Airforce to allow Regiments, Divisions and all ? And will there be support for historical regiment commanders and the many many fighter ace pilots ?
 
Cheers for the DD Bobby and the extra info from Arheo and C0RAX - air changes are afoot :) I really like the filter for different types in the air selection screen, and air wings as an organisation tool. I'm not sure how the fixed wing sizes are going to work out for smaller countries (incl. AI), but if it helps avoid exploits then that's a win too :)

The best planes, of course, are planes on ships, or planes taking off from ships - for a naval pic for this week, here's a pic of a Type 99 dive bomber taking off from Zuikaku on 5 Apr 1942 to strike Colombo, from Hans Lengerer's The Aircraft Carriers of the Imperial Japanese Navy and Army, Volume I.

1652914467677.jpeg
 
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Now we're talking! Yahooo!!!!
 
View attachment 840453

Hey Everyone! I am back this week to talk to you a bit about some changes we are making to air management and combat. The first thing I want to get out of the way is that this is not a “Man the Guns” style rework of combat and management systems. Our focus on air changes have mostly revolved around quality of life and balance changes to existing systems, while largely maintaining the structures people are familiar with (with a couple of exceptions). So, let's get into it!

Starting off with a QoL change I am very happy about: Simplified Wing Deployment. Anyone who has experience with managing air wings probably has some complaints about how deploying wings works. The live system requires three clicks in the best case (four if you include choosing a base) to deploy a single wing into an empty airbase. In the worst case this requires more clicks and doing some math for creating a large wing that can later be divided evenly. Now, we are adding quick deploy buttons to the air base UI to allow deployment of a wing in a single click. We are also keeping the old deployment menu for more advanced deployment options. Also, in this menu, we have simplified the flow for deploying single and multiple wings at once.

WIP UI design of simplified wing deployment tools. Note the art style here is not indicative of a change in art direction for our UI. In the first image we see the setup that can be done to select fast deploy options from any air base.
View attachment 840448


In the second Image we see the newer version of quick deploy within the advanced deployment menu. You now have a set of filters to only show planes of a specific type, and you can now set the reinforce preference on all of the wings you are about to deploy, or individual ones.



View attachment 840449

One of the most visible changes to air management, and hopefully a big quality of life improvement for most people, is the addition of Air Groups. The first thing I want to say is this is not Army Groups or Fleets. For now, and the foreseeable future, we are not adding Air Marshals or any sort of mechanical impact to using Air Groups. Air Groups are an organizational structure and nothing more. What it will do is enable the grouping and selection of multiple air wings across multiple locations bases for easier management. These groups will be displayed when in the air map mode so that you do not have to hunt down your wings on the map when you want to interact with them.

A very much WIP view of our current air groups
View attachment 840450


Of the changes we are making, one of the most notable is moving to standardized/fixed wing sizes. This change comes with a loss of flexibility in some situations and makes managing smaller numbers of airplanes a bit more complicated. However, I think that real air combat in HoI4 is measured in thousands of airplanes and not dozens. We are currently looking at 100 sized wings for most aircraft, with size 10 wings for a few specific equipment types(scout plans, CV planes, ect). This allows us to streamline wing deployment and some other management stuff such as not having AI take up weird percentages of air bases. It also makes balance easier and fixes a few exploit cases. This may take some getting used to but I feel it improves the overall experience of managing large numbers of aircraft.

The final change I want to discuss today is an addition to the combat system. We are adding a new mechanic for intercepting planes in regions enroute to their target. In most cases, engaging planes in their target region will still be most effective. But in others, such as when range is a factor, the region being crossed has a bunch of engagement and spotting bonuses, and in a few other cases leaning into combat in an intermediary region can be a good idea.

Beyond these more concrete changes we are doing a balance pass on existing air combat mechanics. A lot of this is still too WIP to discuss, but I would like to highlight one of our objectives which is decoupling agility and speed with more impact given to speed in later air superiority fighter designs, but more on that at a later date.

As always, I wish you all the best and don't hesitate to tell us how these changes make you feel.

Until next time o7
I have to say, I'm really hoping you make the fixed air wing sizes optional such as a start of playthrough option like "Fixed air wings: On/Off" because I have to say I feel that's a horrible design decision that is only really useful for multiplayer games. I'm speaking as someone that has been supporting Paradox since the very beginning with the original Europa Universalis and Hearts of Iron so I'm hoping my opinion will matter. Another hope is that you make an aircraft editor akin to what now exists for tanks and ships as it would be a logical move.
 
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Will pilots pool become a thing? There is no way to recreate battle of Britain, when RAF was limited by its pilots number and not equipment...

We can only hope. I think this is the key element that is sorely missing from Hoi4's air model.


The best planes, of course, are planes on ships

I'm not sure Nagumo would agree with you there, Axe.
 
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So with the rework of airwing sizes, the speed of which they can relocate, and presumably AA overhaul. Would this also mean that it won't be possible for players to win a naval war without ships? Currently you can have 400 naval bombers in the English Channel and wipe out the ENTIRE Royal Navy in a few hours, which is more than just a little unrealistic.
 
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hmm. I don't like the fixed wing sizes. I like to RP wing sizes, and do micro on carrier decks. Historically, Wing structure was a big part of warfare in WWII. For example, Japan used the Shotai-Chutai-Daitai structures predominantly while the America used "Finger-Four" formations.

Again my main issue is with the limited-size carrier squadrons, but having no option for "Historical" sizes of formations is very disappointing.

Guess I have to kiss my Chutais goodbye.
 
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The QoL and interception changes look great. I can't tell how the fixed air wing sizes will feel in practice, but they seem sensible enough.

I don't know what you're planning for air redeployment and basing, but I hope there are substantial changes to both. Getting short ranged aircraft to distant bases was a constant problem for the Allies in particular - see the repeated British attempts to transfer fighters to Malta via aircraft carrier - and islands could often only support very small air groups. Ideally, aircraft should only be able to "hop" from airbase to airbase; for airbases out of range, they should be forced to redeploy via the supply system, at least when distant airbases are overseas (e.g. supplied via ports). If ships (probably convoys rather than aircraft carriers for simplicity's sake) are intercepted while resupplying air wings with less 100% of their allotted planes, aircraft should be destroyed.

Just want to signal boost this suggestion about the difficulties of moving planes to distant airbases.

This would add interesting strategic depth to global supply chains. If Japan can capture American airbases in the pacific, or Germany effectively isolates the UK from surrounding air bases, they would effectively prevent air reinforcements to overseas possessions in an organic manner.

This could dovetail nicely with Arheo's stated intention to improve diplomacy because negotiating air base access via neutral powers would become very important.

Negotiated access to neutral country air bases could operate on a sliding scale
  1. Planes can transit through but not stop at neutral air bases. Host nations are merely a stepping stone to overseas airbases.
  2. Planes can stop and refit but not operate from the air base. Host nations are a resupply and repair base. Downed pilots may also land here and return to their home nation via the host nation.
  3. Planes can operate fully from the airbase. Host nations are, effectively, no longer neutral and would need to be part of the faction to grant this.
Edit. Personally I think that 1) is all that's needed to add the most strategic depth with minimal added complexity to the mechanics. 3) should be automatic when a nation joins a faction. 2) is a minor use case at the moment, but if Paradox adds a pool of trained pilots, then negotiating 2) with a neutral nation could increase the trickleback for downed pilots.
 
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As long as you're adding QoL to the air system, how about adding something to allow either...

(a) an air unit exiting training to remember its previous assignment [this could be an optional on-off toggle] so that air units being reconstituted could get back into action a player would not need to stress about forgetting to reassign a mission to the air unit; or...

(b) set it up so that an air unit without a mission assigned [regardless of why] will not join any air groups or allow itself to be assigned to an air zone or to an army until it is first given a mission [or several missions] to do once assigned; I can't count the number of times I've started my post-war clean up to note that several air wings I thought I was relying on had been doing nothing at all simply and I can only assume that they were at the bottom of the scroll list.

(c) I just thought of another idea - perhaps allow for a training group that front-line units can draw replacements from, with an option to decide whether or not the front-line units get to draw on replacements that are not fully trained should they fall below a critical strength threshold; I know you stated that you were not introducing any such mechanics but I feel this one mechanic may be welcomed and I know its been suggested before;

Regardless - I love the ideas you've presented to us! Definitely welcome.
 
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This is one of my biggest issues of HoI4's air war. I shouldn't need to produce and deploy thousands of bombers to get an impact on the war. I'd love to see planes be a bit more powerful and pack more of punch so that you don't need to deploy so many to get an effect. Heck, looking up the Doolittle Raid, Dresden Bombing, and Rotterdam Bombing (some of more notable Air Bombings of the war) had, at most, nations deploy half the strength needed in HoI4 to achieve the effects that were desired. Strategic Bombing and Tactical Bombing really need to be more impactful and devestating. As I've noted above, I shouldn't need to deploy thousands of planes simply start to see an effect.

If this is the direction that HoI4 is moving, these smaller squadrons need to be effective enough on their own to have impact so that there is value for investing in the Air War.
1000% Agree. Most air combat is in the hundreds or even just dozens of aircraft. We only see the exceptionally large formations very late war or in very specific air operations and not on a daily basis.

There are other occasions where wing sizes are quite small; Flying boats, based out of docks and harbors, (like PBYs, H6Ks, H8Ks, Sunderlands) would never be deployed in dozens, let alone hundreds.

The largest air unit of WWII is the Eighth Air Force (Note is a Numbered AIr Force, a similar size to a Army Group.) Often deploying 2000 bombers and 1000 fighters at a time consisting of MANY air groups. It only reached this peak in mid-1944. However most Medium and Light Bombardment Groups, the largest bombardment groups by number of aircraft assigned to them, typically only had around 96 aircraft assigned.

So the "Air Groups" in-game are less "Air Group" and more "Air Force". Hell, the cap for "Air Groups" in-game shouldn't be 1000 it should be 100. Somebody misplaced a zero.
 
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hmm. I don't like the fixed wing sizes. I like to RP wing sizes, and do micro on carrier decks. Historically, Wing structure was a big part of warfare in WWII. For example, Japan used the Shotai-Chutai-Daitai structures predominantly while the America used "Finger-Four" formations.

Again my main issue is with the limited-size carrier squadrons, but having no option for "Historical" sizes of formations is very disappointing.

Guess I have to kiss my Chutais goodbye.
I completely agree there, that's why I'm hoping they make it optional at playthrough start. Like that it can please both sides of the coin so to speak.
 
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However, I think that real air combat in HoI4 is measured in thousands of airplanes and not dozens. We are currently looking at 100 sized wings for most aircraft, with size 10 wings for a few specific equipment types(scout plans, CV planes, ect).

How will this affect air volunteers? Most air volunteers are somewhere between a few dozen to a couple hundred. Will we also be able to send at least 100 aircraft and up to a few hundred more?
 
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