CK2 Dev Diary #33: Let's Talk About Sects

[Orion Winterfire]

Speaking of superstition, I'm reminded of the old MS-DOS game - Darklands.


Not really, I'd cite Phillip IV and Clement V's cooperation in suppressing the Knights Templar in 1307 which hardly qualifies as "late Renaissance" Of course, Phillip IV's real reason was the fact he was deeply in debt to the Knights Templar and most likely lusted after their rumored riches. Didn't hurt there was a great deal of rumors about the Templars' alleged dabblings in the supernatural to ground his charges against that order.

I'd recommend "Dungeon Fire and Sword" by John J. Robinson for reading. It covers the entire history of the Templars in 1052 all the way to their final dissolution in 1314. It's a surprisingly good read by the way.

I imagine most such rumors began in just such a way.

 

[Turbofjes]

Immortality is perfectly doable, if you adopt capitalism and get learning and legalism over 9000. Even then it's a long shot. It's simply ahistorical, it can not happen.

I can make it go away by ending the event chain though, so it's fine. And if the AI suddenly is a god I'll consider ridding the world of such ungodly delusions a cool challenge. Bonus points if middle eastern.

 

[Orion Winterfire]

I agree that it would be nice to have a more fine-tune control over such events, but as it stands it doesn't bother me anywhere near enough to ask for the development team to put work into it at this point in the game's life cycle.

 

[Turbofjes]

Idea for monks and mystics, or mod thereof: your immediate family forms a secret society and take turns being the God-Emperor, and then make it a heresy of the character's religion not to be appalled at the idea.

 

[Kanaric]

Yeah, it seems Paradox can't make up their minds if they want a fantasy game or a historical game, lately.

My theory is that the devs desperately want to make a medieval-fantasy game with witches, dragons and magic, but don't have the time/ressources to do it, so they are just polluting their existing medieval historical game with completely irrelevant fantasy elements...

"supernatural events" yes/no - option exists in the game

 

[Kanaric]

So why don't you? Because like I said eidetic memory I know that I am not wrong.

IDK if you are aware but talking like this makes you look like a child.

 

[TheDungen]

You forgot the Robin Hood event chain. Also is Hellmouth the one with the hole in the ground? If not then you miss that one too.
I also have the feeling I'm forgetting one.

Oh yeah I had forgotten about that one, I haven't seen it in ages, does it still happen?
And yeah that's the one I refer to as hellmouth.
The only other one I can think of the the jean d'arc one, got to admit I've never even seen that fire though.

IDK if you are aware but talking like this makes you look like a child.

I have responded to that and any other concern you may have had with that post in the 6 pages since that comment thank you very much. Let's not drag it up again.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

On the topic of "devil summoning" something bubbled up to the top of my brain last night (yay wine).

I think there are a few examples in penitential manuals of people "consorting" with Demons, making barbarians, taking familiars etc. I can't remember anyone actually summoning a Demon, though.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

On the contrary the idea of demon deals and demon summoning is a late Renaissance thing.

The non-canonical tradition of Solomon as binder and commander of demons seems undoubtedly pre-medieval: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/divinity/rt/otp/guestlectures/harding/

This is, to my knowledge, the earliest known original latin grimoire (from 14th cnt.), it does deal with demonology: http://www.esotericarchives.com/juratus/juratus.htm

 

[Jorlem]

And if you don't like magic events, turn them off - it shouldn't be a problem.

I'd like to second what @Wagonlitz said, I'd like to have the option to turn off magic events without also turning off the supernatural events that my character would believe to be magic. I really hope that you won't rule out the possibility of adding this game rule, punishing all of us who would like it just because of the actions/behavior of one of those who wants it.

Worship, not summoning. That's what the devil does in the bible try to get people to worship him instead of god, and hence why most other religious figures are equal to the devil in christian doctrine, because they constitute a breech of that first commandment.

Fun fact, it doesn't. That commandment (the second commandment, not the first) doesn't forbid the worship of other gods, it forbids the worship of other gods "before me". Under the ten commandments, worship of other gods is completely permissible, so long as none of them is given precedence over God.

 

[Urzhail64]

I want to point out that ultimately....that CK2...it's the owner's prerogative do as he/she pleases with the game. If the player wants demons and Satanic worship in his/her game...well more power to the player cause I'm not the one who paid for his game in the first place. Savescum ? Use Ruler Designer ? That's the player's choice. That's all there is to it. I personally don't give a hoot what each indivual player does with his copy of CK2 as long as he/she is enjoying it..that's all that's really important.

 

[Karlingid]

Worship, not summoning. That's what the devil does in the bible try to get people to worship him instead of god, and hence why most other religious figures are equal to the devil in christian doctrine, because they constitute a breech of that first commandment.

'tis ironic, because in Jewish tradition, the role of Satan ("Adversary") is to lure people all the same, but with the intention of testing their faith, rather than properly trying to lure them. He works with God, rather than against him.

I'd like to second what @Wagonlitz said, I'd like to have the option to turn off magic events without also turning off the supernatural events that my character would believe to be magic. I really hope that you won't rule out the possibility of adding this game rule, punishing all of us who would like it just because of the actions/behavior of one of those who wants it.


Fun fact, it doesn't. That commandment (the second commandment, not the first) doesn't forbid the worship of other gods, it forbids the worship of other gods "before me". Under the ten commandments, worship of other gods is completely permissible, so long as none of them is given precedence over God.

It's fun, because my grandfather (who is a kohen) and I have discussed this particular thing a lot. The general historical consensus is that the law encourages monolatry, which is what was practiced as the state religion of the unified Kingdom of Israel. True monotheism didn't really come around until the Roman Era. Within Israel was plenty of worship of Asherah in the North, which was generally tolerated, and Ba'al in the South (split into 3 groups: Baalist Canaanites, the Edomite Qos who is generally considered a cognate deity, and the cult of Yahweh stemming from the Midians/Nabataeans who had adapted Ba'al into a more Arabic format. The Jews in the south [as compared to Israelites of the North] adopted the cult of Yahweh and re-canaanized it by blending it with 'El, the national god of the Israelites and basically the Canaanite equivalent of Zeus, and basically resulting in Yahweh becoming mostly Ba'al again.)

Point is that the ancient Hebrews were split between a few deities in general, and they just pretended it was all the same whilst recognizing the inherent differences between them. Complicated, but yeah, the law promotes monolatry and not monotheism. You are absolutely right on this point, and my kohenic grandfather would agree with you as he has done with me.

 

[TheDungen]

I'd like to second what @Wagonlitz said, I'd like to have the option to turn off magic events without also turning off the supernatural events that my character would believe to be magic. I really hope that you won't rule out the possibility of adding this game rule, punishing all of us who would like it just because of the actions/behavior of one of those who wants it.


Fun fact, it doesn't. That commandment (the second commandment, not the first) doesn't forbid the worship of other gods, it forbids the worship of other gods "before me". Under the ten commandments, worship of other gods is completely permissible, so long as none of them is given precedence over God.

First and that's not the general interpretation of it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Commandment

The non-canonical tradition of Solomon as binder and commander of demons seems undoubtedly pre-medieval: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/divinity/rt/otp/guestlectures/harding/

This is, to my knowledge, the earliest known original latin grimoire (from 14th cnt.), it does deal with demonology: http://www.esotericarchives.com/juratus/juratus.htm

Oh yeah in eastern mythology it's a thing. But it's and idea that's not imported to the west until quite late. And I don't think there's an association between demon and hell until a lot later either. Not sure if the bible even mentions hell until revelations.

 

[Red-XIII]

Or are you suggesting that reality has supernatural content?

Is someone suggesting it doesn't?

...because verifying something's non-existence is by all practical means impossible, while the other way around perfectly doable. See Russel's Teapot.

Seriously, the self-entitlement of modern materialism knows no bounds.

There are numerous eye witness reports and documents relating to events not explainable within the bounds of modern materialism. There's not a single documented case of monkey evolving into a human.

I'm not going to make fun of other people's ridiculous believes (such as big bang theory), but I'd appreciate it if they would get off from their high horses and took a good self criticizing look at their own provability before making claims about what does and doesn't exist.

I saw one of the symbols showed in a previous dev diary was related to Hermeticism.

Does that mean I can get to do magic without worshipping Satan?

Specifically - I'd like to be able to try to regrow body parts my idiot doctor lops off - please?

+1
While, to the best of my knowledge, it considered to be the same deal under a different name by religion IRL, we're thankfully not dealing with RL here. If there's to be supernatural in CK I'd rather see it sidestepping as far away from the religious god vs devil vector as possible.

All that said, I get the feeling that PI is stepping away from it's own established method of madness.
The way I've seen it - PI's been allowing 3 types of content in.
1) Historical bases. Such as starting conditions on maps or time-related singled-out events like the Viking age.
2) Logic-governed mechanics adapted to history alterations. Such as dejure drift, creation of custom empires, formation of trade republics, religious conversions etc.
3) Outright wonky content with no pretence of not being wonky from the outset. Such as sunset invasion.

Thing is - I'm worried about the number 2 part of this DLC. It'd be pretty weird to see every single character on the map somehow involved with some kind of society. People, especially rulers, have other things to do beside polishing membership cards and enjoying extracurricular activities. This needs some sort of mechanic in place to ensure that more elusive societies stay elusive and that the less elusive ones don't become all-inclusive.

Granted, no secret society would be a complete representation of the modern theoretically stereotypical and stereotypically theoretical conspiracy without at least some hands in some jars, but that doesn't mean that every jar has an excuse to have an eye drawn on it.

 

[Kapitalisti]

There's not a single documented case of monkey evolving into a human.

This is one of those statements that is so wrong on so many levels that it's pretty damn hard to refute it. Because you can't figure out where to even start...

 

[Orion Winterfire]

Is someone suggesting it doesn't?

Yes.

 

[TheDungen]

Is someone suggesting it doesn't?

Well truth be told yes, if something exists inside of the universe it's natural and not supernatural. So by definition something that is supernatural does not exist, or at the very least is separate from the universe. But of course at that point you'll have to start asking what's natural for a multiverse.

 

[Knotz]

Thing is - I'm worried about the number 2 part of this DLC. It'd be pretty weird to see every single character on the map somehow involved with some kind of society. People, especially rulers, have other things to do beside polishing membership cards and enjoying extracurricular activities. This needs some sort of mechanic in place to ensure that more elusive societies stay elusive and that the less elusive ones don't become all-inclusive.

I'd like to echo this, P'dox has a habit of making the primary point of their DLC a liiitle too common/OP so it'd be nice if membership in these societies wasn't hugely common. Specially the fringier ones like Satanism.

 

[Afinati]

I can see most people keep supernatural events turned on.

smh

 

[Afinati]

No they did not, the church considered any belief in witchcraft to be heretical. If you accused someone of witchcraft then you were more likely to be burned on the stake than they were.
The whole witch-hunt thing is revisionism and the actual witch-hunts much later to the point of barely being in the period of this game.

Yup.