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CK2 Dev Diary #40: Visiting the Cartographer

Greetings everyone!

Today I’m here to talk about one of my favorite parts of our games (a very important one too) and something I’ve been working on. I’m going to talk about the map.

Looking at the work @Trin Tragula does for the map on EU4, I started thinking. Why don’t we do something similar to CK2? So I went looking at the map for various possible improvements. I have not added anything new in terms of provinces or areas. Instead, I wanted to focus on improving the existing map and give it some needed polish.

The CK2 map is not perfect, so there are a quite a few places to look at. But I wanted to start with the terrain and topology. As there several places on the map that, frankly, look out of place. As such, I swooped the map of the most hideous offenders. Several lakes and most major rivers are now much smoother, avoiding ugly and sharp edges. The Ural Mountains are now mostly impassable.

Below you can see a few examples.

Ural mountains:
ck2_ural_mountains.jpg


Lake Baikal, old and new:
ck2_baikal_old.png

ck2_baikal_new.png


The Ganges, old and new:
ck2_ganges_old.png

ck2_ganges_new.png



I also took this opportunity to make some smaller de jure adjustments (I know that not everyone will agree with me on these). These are done for gameplay reasons and considerations. The largest change will be for the kingdom of Cumania. Which I broke off slightly by giving the duchies of Itil and Sarkel to Khazaria, along with Crimea and Cherson (so Taurica no longer holds any de jure land).

A small shift in the kingdoms of the ERE. Greece is a very large kingdom, so I made it slightly smaller by moving Samos and Cibyrrhaeot to Anatolia, and in turn, made Anatolia stay close to the same size by making the duchies of Trebizond and Armeniacon de jure to the kingdom of Trebizond.

ck2_updated_de_jure.png



Last, and definitely not least. Let’s take a look at Hungary and the Danube. The first thing I did was to redraw parts of the Danube to make it more accurate (as we all know, the old Danube was not quite where it was supposed to be). It now flows much closer to its actual location. The counties along the river have been adjusted accordingly. Pecs, for example, is now located on the correct side of it. The rest of Hungary has also been adjusted so that the kingdom is placed within the Carpathians.

Instead of taking my word for it, you can see for yourself in the screenshot below, in which you can see the updated coast of Croatia as well.

ck2_danube_new.png


ck2_danube_old.png


Does this make the map perfect? No. But I do think it’s a step in the right direction and an improvement over the previous one.

Let me know what you think!

- The Ural mountains are now impassable
- Removed the duplicate island of Kolguyev, in the Barents Sea
- The most northern part of the Onega is now properly filled with water
- The mountains in southern Abyssinia no longer stretches onto the frame of the map
- Fixed an issue in the lower part of the river Don, where the river bed would go above water level
- Removed a bunch of trees that were placed in major rivers
- The terrain around lake Balkhash has been smoothed, to avoid sharp/rough edges
- The terrain around lake Baikal has also been smoothed, no longer will the steep cliffs surround the lake
- The Indus and the Ganges have both been cleaned up:
- The terrain now matches the actual river
- Smaller rivers no longer flow so far into the major rivers
- The borders of the rivers has been made smoother to avoid sharp/rough edges
- The Danube has been redrawn, to better represent its actual location (!)
- The county of Constantinople is now only located on the western side of the Bosphorus, merging the eastern side into the county of Nikaea, connected with a strait
- The duchies of Samos and Cibyrrhaeot are now de jure part of the kingdom of Anatolia, rather than Greece
- The duchies of Trebizond and Armeniacon is now de jure part of the kingdom of Trebizond, rather than Anatolia
- Removed the kingdom of Taurica
- The duchy of Crimea is now de jure kingdom of Khazaria
- The duchy of Cherson is now de jure kingdom of Khazaria
- The coastal counties of Croatia and Serbia have been adjusted and moved slightly to better represent their actual locations
- The eastern counties of Hungary and the surrounding area has been moved and adjusted in order to properly place the kingdom within the Carpathian mountains
- Changed the name of b_mirabel to "Majdal Yaba"
- b_mirabel will be named "Mirabel" if ruled by most European cultures
- b_mirabel will be named "Antipatris" if ruled by Byzantine cultures
- The county of Tobruk is now only located along the coast
- Moved the northern part of c_dalarna to c_herjedalen
- Moved k_venice to de jure e_italy
 
i like the rivers being redrawn, and the wierd lake problems (which i never noticed but didn't look either)..Not sure i see the point in the picture of the northern Ural Wasteland being seperate from vaste wasteland north of it, it also doesn't really block anything off.
I don't know from a game play perspective that i'd like having Trebizond, I don't like really tiny 2 duchy kingdoms (which does also mean i despise Serbia) And if i was playing Byzantium, i woudn't especially care to form the thing, you loose a net of one direct vassal to forming or having it, (a reason i don't like Serbia... including the fact that only owning one (the 3 county one) duchy would be enough to form either kingdom. I also personally consider Bosnia more dejure Serbia than dejure Croatia, but whatever....This being said, I suppose it's easier to show them this way from a historical stand point.... (also don't like the duchy/Kingdom of Venice for similar reasons being one county)
Don't know that i like from a real historical standpoint that the Duchy of Samos was moved to Anatolia... of course i don't know how it was maintained government wise or thought of at the time either so "shrugs" i digress on that.

As for Venice, I don't know that I like the reasons behind the move, since it is likely then that anyone who forms the Empire of Italy will in turn just eat it... such as the HRE, and they're physically closer, and a player will want to eat them sooner rather than later as Byzantium anyway, since they would be a good area stepping stone to the rest of Italy if nothing else, an easier conquest than say... Lombardy, depending on the start date. Really only slows people down long enought to fabricate and determine their enemies in a possible war. Historically speaking Venice was Dejure Byzantine land, in the earliest start Dates, even if they did drift to Italy in later ones, although i am sure they saw themselves independent of any such enitity as Italy, until they were at least conquered by outside forces... Like Napoleon or Austria for instance.
 
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Greetings everyone!

Today I’m here to talk about one of my favorite parts of our games (a very important one too) and something I’ve been working on. I’m going to talk about the map.

Looking at the work @Trin Tragula does for the map on EU4, I started thinking. Why don’t we do something similar to CK2? So I went looking at the map for various possible improvements. I have not added anything new in terms of provinces or areas. Instead, I wanted to focus on improving the existing map and give it some needed polish.

The CK2 map is not perfect, so there are a quite a few places to look at. But I wanted to start with the terrain and topology. As there several places on the map that, frankly, look out of place. As such, I swooped the map of the most hideous offenders. Several lakes and most major rivers are now much smoother, avoiding ugly and sharp edges. The Ural Mountains are now mostly impassable.

Below you can see a few examples.

Ural mountains:
View attachment 239377

Lake Baikal, old and new:
View attachment 239378
View attachment 239379

The Ganges, old and new:
View attachment 239381
View attachment 239382


I also took this opportunity to make some smaller de jure adjustments (I know that not everyone will agree with me on these). These are done for gameplay reasons and considerations. The largest change will be for the kingdom of Cumania. Which I broke off slightly by giving the duchies of Itil and Sarkel to Khazaria, along with Crimea and Cherson (so Taurica no longer holds any de jure land).

A small shift in the kingdoms of the ERE. Greece is a very large kingdom, so I made it slightly smaller by moving Samos and Cibyrrhaeot to Anatolia, and in turn, made Anatolia stay close to the same size by making the duchies of Trebizond and Armeniacon de jure to the kingdom of Trebizond.

View attachment 239383


Last, and definitely not least. Let’s take a look at Hungary and the Danube. The first thing I did was to redraw parts of the Danube to make it more accurate (as we all know, the old Danube was not quite where it was supposed to be). It now flows much closer to its actual location. The counties along the river have been adjusted accordingly. Pecs, for example, is now located on the correct side of it. The rest of Hungary has also been adjusted so that the kingdom is placed within the Carpathians.

Instead of taking my word for it, you can see for yourself in the screenshot below, in which you can see the updated coast of Croatia as well.

View attachment 239386



Does this make the map perfect? No. But I do think it’s a step in the right direction and an improvement over the previous one.

Let me know what you think!

- The Ural mountains are now impassable
- Removed the duplicate island of Kolguyev, in the Barents Sea
- The most northern part of the Onega is now properly filled with water
- The mountains in southern Abyssinia no longer stretches onto the frame of the map
- Fixed an issue in the lower part of the river Don, where the river bed would go above water level
- Removed a bunch of trees that were placed in major rivers
- The terrain around lake Balkhash has been smoothed, to avoid sharp/rough edges
- The terrain around lake Baikal has also been smoothed, no longer will the steep cliffs surround the lake
- The Indus and the Ganges have both been cleaned up:
- The terrain now matches the actual river
- Smaller rivers no longer flow so far into the major rivers
- The borders of the rivers has been made smoother to avoid sharp/rough edges
- The Danube has been redrawn, to better represent its actual location (!)
- The county of Constantinople is now only located on the western side of the Bosphorus, merging the eastern side into the county of Nikaea, connected with a strait
- The duchies of Samos and Cibyrrhaeot are now de jure part of the kingdom of Anatolia, rather than Greece
- The duchies of Trebizond and Armeniacon is now de jure part of the kingdom of Trebizond, rather than Anatolia
- Removed the kingdom of Taurica
- The duchy of Crimea is now de jure kingdom of Khazaria
- The duchy of Cherson is now de jure kingdom of Khazaria
- The coastal counties of Croatia and Serbia have been adjusted and moved slightly to better represent their actual locations
- The eastern counties of Hungary and the surrounding area has been moved and adjusted in order to properly place the kingdom within the Carpathian mountains
- Changed the name of b_mirabel to "Majdal Yaba"
- b_mirabel will be named "Mirabel" if ruled by most European cultures
- b_mirabel will be named "Antipatris" if ruled by Byzantine cultures
- The county of Tobruk is now only located along the coast
- Moved the northern part of c_dalarna to c_herjedalen
- Moved k_venice to de jure e_italy
One big THANK YOU for fixing the Danube and other things.

Since in several of your replies in this thread you indicated that you might do something more in future, and since I have talked about this with your colleagues, do you think some other regions, which have been desperately neglected before, will be taken care of?

I would join the ranks of those asking for some nice touch to Persia, Dniester region, Germany or Bohemia. But frankly I believe there are also regions which are so poorly done, that they desperately need to be overhauled, if they are to look like part of a 21st century game. By this I mean North and West Africa and Syria. I'm ready to provide you what ever you need for their revision. Literaly whatever. I did help major CK2 mods to improve these regions, but I think it is the base game what needs to be improved in order to improve gaming experience for those who don't use mods.
I believe that CK2 players do deserve to play on a map which is pleasing to be looked at. For some inspiration, you can check this:

And what kind of help could we, as the CK2 community provide? I tried opening this thread where map suggestions could be collected, would that be fine?

Keep up the good work!
 
Why is Kingdom of Bohemia part of Germania at the 769 bookmark? I think it should be in Wendish Empire since bohemians are "wends" too (even Great Moravia is in Wendish Empire). Or it is part of Germania for any historical reasons? I would also like to see County of Znojmo beign part of Kingdom of Bohemia somehow :D

I agree, the map is still not perfect, but it's great that someone tries to help and rework some of the mistakes, you're doing great job, keep on going...
 
Love most of these changes, I'm not too sure about this however:

- Moved k_venice to de jure e_italy

I understand the gameplay reasons, but it seems a cheap way out of what should be a gameplay fix. Honestly k_venice shouldn't just be de jure ERE in the early start dates but de facto. I can see it being k_italy for later starts though.

Agreed, at the 769 start date Venice was still nominally a protectorate of the ERE
 
Nope. Please. The county of Znojmo is clearly in Lower Austria. It should just be renamed...
And...to what name?
Marchfeld? Or how should the northern half od Lower Austria be called?
 
And...to what name?
Marchfeld? Or how should the northern half od Lower Austria be called?
Kuenring, Weinviertel (current name, meh), Marchfeld maybe (not really fitting since that is only a small subregion).
Or another old city / castle in the region. Maybe https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gars_am_Kamp.
Znojmo is outside of the province borders so not really fitting.

Alternatively the Austrian counties' internal borders can be redrawn and Znojmo moved west and renamed to "Traungau".
 
Kuenring, Weinviertel (current name, meh), Marchfeld maybe (not really fitting since that is only a small subregion).
Or another old city / castle in the region. Maybe https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gars_am_Kamp.
Znojmo is outside of the province borders so not really fitting.

Alternatively the Austrian counties' internal borders can be redrawn and Znojmo moved west and renamed to "Traungau".
how accurate are the county borders to begin with, on the map on a whole (as an overview... i mean borders move after all and you can really show that in this game...)
 
how accurate are the county borders to begin with, on the map on a whole (as an overview... i mean borders move after all and you can really show that in this game...)
This coounty's northern and eastern border s pretty accurately match the borders of the duchy of Austria and even even today's borders.
I dislike the "borders change, no need to make them in any way accurate, everything's equally wrong" argument. Very, very much.
Mods like swmh show how nice a ck2 map can be.
 
Ehem... Anatolia in 1081:
Byzantium1081ADlightpurple-1-%2BAntioch.png

Ahem, you just proved my point. They still controlled the Eastern side of the Sea of Marmara+East of the Bosphorus. Unless I've missed something, for games with the new map changes, invasions of k_Anatolia will take everything red on the Eastern side of Marmara and the Aegean, including the area across the Bosphorus.
 
Ahem, you just proved my point. They still controlled the Eastern side of the Sea of Marmara+East of the Bosphorus. Unless I've missed something, for games with the new map changes, invasions of k_Anatolia will take everything red on the Eastern side of Marmara and the Aegean, including the area across the Bosphorus.

You are wrong. Just look at the map in the OP:

 
As has been pointed out, Anatolia looks weird now, as does Greece. I think it would be better to rename Anatolia to Ikonion (Rum or Konya for Turks, removing the need for a separate Kingdom of Rum), restore Greece to it's old borders, and split it into 2 kingdoms: Thessalonike and Nikaia. Maybe split Epirus and Morea from the former if you feel inclined.
 
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What needs fixing in Iran?

Everything. Cities and provinces are in the wrong places, the duchies make little sense accordingly (Shiraz, the traditional capital of Fars, is not in Fars, for example), there are no blocks around the Zagros or the deserts in the east, the border with Mesopotamia is just plain weird (they include a great big chunk of the Iraq-e Ajam in with Mesopotamia), the fact that the provinces are all weirdly shaped with ridiculous travel times, the fact that there is one huge kingdom and a few peripheral kingdoms without any rhyme or reason, the fact that "Persia" is an anachronistic and meaningless term for the period in question, and so on.
 
Honestly I think the best thing they could do with the map when they start making CK3 is to scrap the current one and start over. The provinces are massive and most of them aren't even the right shape or in the right place, same applies to geographical features. It didn't seem so bad until I used mods, now every time I go back to the vanilla map, it just burns my eyes. There are countless duplicate holdings, there are even duplicate provinces (e.g. Azov and Tana). The map we see before us is pretty much the CK1 map, just with more provinces. No sense polishing a turd.
 
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Everything. Cities and provinces are in the wrong places, the duchies make little sense accordingly (Shiraz, the traditional capital of Fars, is not in Fars, for example), there are no blocks around the Zagros or the deserts in the east, the border with Mesopotamia is just plain weird (they include a great big chunk of the Iraq-e Ajam in with Mesopotamia), the fact that the provinces are all weirdly shaped with ridiculous travel times, the fact that there is one huge kingdom and a few peripheral kingdoms without any rhyme or reason, the fact that "Persia" is an anachronistic and meaningless term for the period in question, and so on.
just like in fact the entire Middle East. The same goes for Syria, the Maghreb and even Egypt.
as for Persia, anything like this? - it's basicaly just re-painted vanilla Persia with provinces reshaped and changed dejure structure
 
You are wrong. Just look at the map in the OP:

That map is also wrong, in that it doesn't show the lands held by the Rubenids or Brachamios or the coastal Paphlagonia holdouts or the fortress of Choma-Sublaion or the fact that the ERE still held Attaleia. It's also not definite as far as I can tell from my reading that they even held much of the lands around the southern part of the Propontis, considering the Turks took most of it, like Cius, Cyzicus, and Adramyttium.