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CK2 Dev Diary #50: A Reason for War

Greetings!

The weather is slowly recovering from the chaotic mixture of snow/rain/hail/sun that has plagued the Swedish April and work is starting on the next, yet undisclosed, expansion! The next expansion is going to have a specific theme which most features will be focused around (we can unfortunately not go into any detail in this DD), though we also want to add some features that can be of use regardless of who or where you choose to play. One of these is planned to be a ‘Casus Belli Expansion’, where we want to add new and oft-requested CBs to the game. The Focus is going to be on CBs that enhance the early and late game (as well as a few more roleplay-focused CBs). While this is by no means a final list, it’s what we’ve made so far:


Forced Vassalization
This is a CB that can be used against neighboring realms to force them to become your vassal. To avoid making it too powerful it’s quite heavily limited, only realms that are of a lower tier, under 30 realm size and where the ruler is of either your culture group or religion are valid targets. It also has a direct cost (prestige). For example; this can allow England to, with time, extend ‘protection’ to the smaller Welsh and Irish realms.


De Jure Duchy Claim
This CB was added to try to avoid situations where massive realms would fight over one single county, essentially destroying their armies for near no gain. Players often think these types of wars aren’t worth fighting, and do not usually declare them themselves - instead they turn to Holy Wars or invite duchy claimants to expand in a more meaningful way. This CB provides interesting opportunity for conquest at the point where you form your first Kingdom or Empire. Any vassals present in conquered lands are preserved, and this CB also comes with a prestige cost.


Ducal County Conquest
At the very start of a game you might be stuck waiting for fabricated claims a very, very long time if you’re unlucky. This CB is available to Count and Duke tier characters, and allows you to go to war over any County that are part of a Duchy you hold land in, as long as the Duchy has no holder. The CB has a cost of prestige and gold, making it similar to a fabricated claim (as that’s essentially what it is). As an example, this gives count-tier characters in Ireland and the HRE an alternate way to claim a Duke-tier title, presuming that you can save up enough prestige and money.


Great Conquest
Unless you are playing as a Muslim, Nomad or Tribal-cultured ruler (who have access to invasions) you have no real way to expand in a meaningful way when you are playing as the ruler of a very large realm. While we still want expansion to be difficult, we also want to give players more static opportunities to expand. This CB is available to very powerful realms (at least 200 realm size) and can be used to claim an entire Kingdom from another character. Though the catch is that you have to fight someone that is as strong or stronger than you are, and using the CB itself costs a massive amount of prestige and piety.


Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).


Note that these CBs are by no means finished, and are currently being tested internally. Feel free to comment and feedback on them though, and also feel free to tell us what CBs you would like to see added!
 
Hopefully these CBs won't be locked behind the DLC, as they're some of the simpler additions that could be introduced to the game (and have been in a number of mods). These feel like patch features, rather than expansion features.
 
I'm mostly ok with these changes so long as they come at a significant enough cost to be limited. One part of the game that I actually really like is scheming for claims (whether through marrying someone with an intention of getting a claim in the next generation, or through inviting a claimant and going that way. I do hope that that remains the primary method of expansion for Christian rulers (as it's one of the fun and different parts of CK2).
You seem to be working off of the assumption that these CBs are meant to replace claims. In fact the old ways to expand (Marriage, inviting Claimants, Holy Wars, etc) are all supposed to be the superior ways to expand. Inviting a Duchy Claimant rather than using the De Jure Duchy CB has no associated extra cost, for example (and it also gives you a very loyal vassal, while vassals acquired via De Jure Duchy Claim might not be as thrilled...).

My other concern is the possibility that AI blobs will get even nastier (e.g. the ERE immediately launching duchy conquests on Croatia and Apulia; those starts are already precarious enough if you don't want to swear fealty to an empire on day 1).
Empires need to pay quite a hefty sum of prestige to use De Jure Duchy claims, and if they do decide to attack for an entire Duchy, any vassals within the targeted area will be preserved.

I'm probably going to be in the minority, but I really don't like most of the proposed CBs. Forcing Christian rulers to rely on claims to expand emphasizes the importance of the marriage game, which is one of CK2s most interesting features. Expanding the number and power of CBs will dilute the importance of the marriage game and reduce interest in the game's characters.

In general, I like the slowed rate of expansion. it encourages a relative level of stability Christiandom that serves to make even small changes to the map interesting. And I can always play a Muslim ruler if I want to play a game where expand rapidly.
The new CBs aim specifically to not de-emphasize the importance of marriages & claims. What they do aim for is to reduce the frustration when lady fortune seems to have abandoned you - it provides you with more options and more paths to take, though these alternate paths will be limited heavily by costs and specific requirements.

Might I suggest a Holy War, that will lead to forced conversion of the top holder?
We've been toying with this idea, but having it unrestricted risks being seriously overpowered. It would need a set of specific conditions, or a rare opportunity presented via event, to be feasible.

Would be great if it would possible to turn the more powerfull ones off with game rules.
Naturally, we tend to add game rules for features such as this. Such game rules wouldn't have to be limited to the new CB's either, I know people have been asking for a game rule to disable the super-powerful 'Invasion' CB's in general. I'm of the opinion that more rules are always better. :)

This primarily makes Christian/Zorastrian/Dharmic expansion much easier. While I don't have a problem with that, I believe they should eat a corresponding nerf to stability in exchange, just like how Muslims have Decadence, Pagans have Elective Gavelkind, and Nomads have unstable realms.

Games can get blobby enough as is, making it easier with these CBs without any corresponding nerf just makes christians even more powerful than they already are.

If we are to make expansion easier, we should make collapse easier as well. Christian superblobs are quite frankly more of a problem than Muslim or Pagan ones, as there is no real mechanic to permanently shatter a feudal realm.
I'm not entirely sure why you would think it'd be much easier - all of these CBs are significantly restricted and only work within specific niches. The point is to present alternatives that are slightly weaker than existing ways to expand, with an additional cost of one or more resources. If you're a ways into a game you will have plenty of better alternatives to choose from, i.e. by inviting Claimants, asking the Pope for Claims or Invasions (if Catholic) or waging Holy Wars.

The claim-system is what makes ck2 different. I can see no need for this unhistorical arcade-style changes. If you want to conquer large areas in a short time, you can already play as pagan or a mod or total war.
Again, I don't see the validity in this assumption. Why do you think it'd be a way to conquer large areas in a short time? As mentioned above, these CBs are all fairly limiting, both by requiring fairly specific conditions to be used, and by requiring a cost. Also, almost every way to expand already in the game is going to be more powerful (see examples above). These CBs aim only to reduce frustration and provide opportunity where before there was none
As an example, let's say that Byzantium loses an invasion of Anatolia. As it stands there's no equivalent of an 'invasion' style CB that could regain that territory for them, while Muslims have an invasion they can use for 1000 piety. All this adds is a way for such a war to be fought at all - and only if it is against an enemy much stronger than you, AND only if you pay a hefty price of prestige and piety.
 
Let me pile on to the Hostage CB not making a lot of sense as you described it.

I can understand the use of espionage/plotting to free someone, but as soon as you go to war for a hostage, the hostage should and would be executed. It needs to be clear that this CB is based on vengeance rather than a shot at freedom. I also think it should offer pretty limited and proportionate peace deal option (ie probably no land grabs, maybe the ability to kill a family member or three from whoever killed the hostage, or the hostage-taker himself).
 
Some of these CBs looks really nice, but I wonder if justice system could be improved in upcoming DLC? It is really frustrating that for example minor count can seduce wife of emperor's son or abduct and mutilate his kin and face no consequences.
 
Note that these CBs are by no means finished, and are currently being tested internally. Feel free to comment and feedback on them though, and also feel free to tell us what CBs you would like to see added!

As whole succession and inheritance is not represented in game by special mechanics or event chains leading to conflicts between potential legal successors and those less legal like:
  • Murdering oldest imbecile son by his two ambitious younger brothers
  • Very strong duke coming to power by disinheriting juvenile children of his liege
  • Queen rulling in name of heir, officially with title of regent but in reality with full authority
Then AT LEAST give us a special CB to unify land in gavelkind succession, allowing to attack your siblings. In other types of succession, Chancellor should get ability to fabricate CB against any landed ruler from your dynasty as long as his is at the same rank, allowing to unify family demesne (it should be possible to use this one against kinfolk from other realm, preventing our target liege from intervention).
 
Pacification - if you are tired by continuous rides of tribes, hordes, pagans or berbers, you can forcing them to give you peace. Defeated character (and his vassals) cannot do raids on your lands and created is Non-Aggression Pact. One relatively large battle gives 100% WS.
 
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What about a CB to destroy someone's top title (I am looking mostly at HRE and Abbasids)?
This is another idea we're toying with, like the previously mentioned force conversion CB that Wuddel mentioned it's something that can't be used lightly though. It would have to require extremely specific circumstances, or only be presented through a scripted opportunity of some sort. Have you got any ideas on when such a CB would feel fair to use?
 
With the Free Hostages CB, could there maybe be an event tied to it that enables it to be used in certain circumstances? Say if your heir is imprisoned for an extended period of time without being ransomed/released, you can possibly get an event where fever in your nation/court reaches the point where they want to go and rescue the heir which allows you to use the CB and maybe grants some extra troops? That way the target both has time to ransom/release or sacrifice their prisoner before the war to rescue them starts. Also, these wars shouldn't invalidate if the rescue target is killed for some reason, so that there isn't an easy way out of it and you can get vengeance instead.

Maybe something that let's you stop a country from raiding for an extended period of time as well? Mainly if there's only a few of them left or if you're just constantly being bothered by one place.
 
This is another idea we're toying with, like the previously mentioned force conversion CB that Wuddel mentioned it's something that can't be used lightly though. It would have to require extremely specific circumstances, or only be presented through a scripted opportunity of some sort. Have you got any ideas on when such a CB would feel fair to use?

This sounds like additional faction type.
 
This is another idea we're toying with, like the previously mentioned force conversion CB that Wuddel mentioned it's something that can't be used lightly though. It would have to require extremely specific circumstances, or only be presented through a scripted opportunity of some sort. Have you got any ideas on when such a CB would feel fair to use?

When you control more land of the title than they do. Or perhaps faction revolts.

Any thoughts on a Take Hostages CB ?
 
This is another idea we're toying with, like the previously mentioned force conversion CB that Wuddel mentioned it's something that can't be used lightly though. It would have to require extremely specific circumstances, or only be presented through a scripted opportunity of some sort. Have you got any ideas on when such a CB would feel fair to use?
Dismantle Empire/Kingdom? One option could be that they need to be below a specific threshold of Dejure land before you can use it (or it has to be titular). Another is that you have to be a different religion than the target and the target's Dejure vassals for that title will all join the war with their full strength. After the war is finished, the attacker gains a truce with all the released vassals in addition to the previous liege and all of them get a temporary CB to try and reunite the realm in the mean time.
 
I saw people talking about Crusades earlier. I'd be in full support for my own reasons- it'd give the Middle East a chance to actually be developed for the first time in basically ever. SoI is based on Islam, it adds as much flavor for Norwegians as it does for Bedouins. Some sort of way to represent raiding horse tribes of the desert, and especially the additions of non-Arabic cultures like Assyrians, Arameans, South Arabians, and Himyarites- mind, all of whom had noted presence in the first two start dates and, for all except Himyaritic, are present today.

A review of Egyptian culture might be nice as well- I love that it is based on Coptic (historically accurate!) but it is primarily Arabized Copic or Greek versions of Coptic names, rather than being Coptic in its own right. I also once made a suggestion for splitting the monolithic Berber culture into multiple tribal-style cultures like what happened to the Russians.

I've proposed these things before, but a Crusades-focused DLC actually would give them a chance to be relevant to the topic at hand. The Mideast needs a little love.
 
This is another idea we're toying with, like the previously mentioned force conversion CB that Wuddel mentioned it's something that can't be used lightly though. It would have to require extremely specific circumstances, or only be presented through a scripted opportunity of some sort. Have you got any ideas on when such a CB would feel fair to use?

We already have a game rule that causes titles to be destroyed on inheritance if their realm does not include any of the titile's de jure counties. Maybe a CB could to used for the same effect if the rule is disabled. But such a CB shouldn't be valid if the target holds even a single barony in the de jure kingdom.
 
This is another idea we're toying with, like the previously mentioned force conversion CB that Wuddel mentioned it's something that can't be used lightly though. It would have to require extremely specific circumstances, or only be presented through a scripted opportunity of some sort. Have you got any ideas on when such a CB would feel fair to use?

I'd say at either very high infamy or after the megablob conquers a bordering province. Something like "They are at our gates, could we contain such a monster?" and either yes and you declare a "total war" which would destroy all held titles of the highest tier that the character had or say no and lose the chance. The loss of such a war could lead to your own patrimony being damaged.
 
Is this still going to be the last "major" expansion?
M&M when it was released broke CKii record for the largest active monthly player base for the games lifespan, both cumulative and peak (which is amazing considering the game is almost old enough to have a childhood focus) and Paradox had very healthy Q1 fiscal results (despite not releasing any new titles) in part of that. So it wouldn't make sense to stop support of the game unless a super secret CKiii/Clausewitz 4 was nearing the PR/beta phase of it's development cycle.
 
Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).

I vote make it possible to rescue anyone from either your family or a vassal, with the risk that the hostage-holder may choose to execute their hostages when you declare war... leading to the war goal shifting to "vengeance" and executing the hostage-holder's family or self if you win.
 
Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).

Is this a CB that will invalidate if the target hostages die? If so, I'll just kill the hostages whenever this is used on me. :p

I do think that you should be able to declare war on someone who has hostages. However, if a hostage is executed as a result of your rashness, you should get a fat penalty with all of that hostage's relatives. Something like -25 across the dynasty. Of course if your ambitious brother with a strong claim on your titles is imprisoned, perhaps you go to war to free him, knowing that the enemy will take care of a future problem, for you. ;)
 
@rageair Will we be able to choose who to rescue as part of the CB. Much like who we choose whose claim to press. Or will it be an all inclusive rescue all captives in X's prison?
 
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