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CK3 Dev Diary #77 - Becoming a Polyglot

Greetings!

As you all know, one of the new Cultural Pillars each Culture has is their native Language. Now, what effect does language have? At its very core, Languages affect the Baseline acceptance between cultures - if two Cultures share the same Language Pillar, they’ll like each other better. But that’s not all, characters can also learn additional languages!

So, why do you want to learn a language? Knowing a language cuts the (rather hefty) opinion penalties for Different Culture in half, both for Characters and Counties. Planning on conquering a foreign kingdom? Start your conquest by mastering their language, making subsequent control of your new subjects just that much easier! The less accepted your culture is, the more impact learning a language will have.

Now for the more pertinent question, how do you learn another language? You learn new languages through scheming!
SchemeInteraction.png

[Image showing the Learn Language interaction]

LanguageSchemeStart.png

[Image showing the Start Scheme window]

‘Learn Language’ is a Learning-based scheme, where progress and chance of success are primarily derived from how scholarly your character is. This scheme is available to everyone, even young children (who have a vastly increased chance of success/progress, by virtue of being young, less tired, and having working brains). It targets someone who natively speaks the language, having you try to emulate them. While the exact target you choose is less important than in other types of schemes, you might still get opportunities to interact with them.

Now, learning languages takes quite some time. Though it’s possible to significantly speed up the process by employing a Court Tutor!
CourtTutor.png

[Image of a Court Tutor]

You will also find that bonuses for this scheme have been added throughout the existing Lifestyle trees. Some examples:
  • Adaptive Traditions - Unlocks an additional Learn Language Scheme
  • Embassies - Increases Scheme Power
  • Chains of Loyalty - Increases Scheme Power
  • Pedagogy - Increases Scheme Success Chance
  • Open-Minded - Increases the Language Limit
  • Smooth Operator - Increases the Language Limit

If the scheme is invalidated by, for example, the target dying, your progress is retained and you get the opportunity to choose a new target.
InvalidationEvent.png

[Image of Invalidation Event]

When we first talked about languages, we had some people (rightfully) point out that decreasing the chance of success the more languages you know isn’t very logical. We still needed a way to prevent characters from knowing all the languages in the world, and thus we introduced the concept of a Foreign Language Limit. This represents how many languages a character can comfortably remember.

KnownLanguages.png

[Image of Language Limit]

If a character exceeds their Foreign Language Limit, they will start getting events about feeling overwhelmed, giving you the choice between forgetting a language or gaining stress. In a sense, this system is very similar to how we handle characters having too many lovers.

Of course, a character can never forget the language that is native to their culture, and that language isn’t included in the limit (as you can see in the above screenshot, Telugu isn’t included in the limit as it is his native language).

The Foreign Language Limit is affected by many things, but primarily by a character’s Learning score, where every 5 attribute points increases the limit by one.

With this change, we’ve made it so that the more languages you know, the higher your success chance is for learning additional languages. You have the basics down already, after all.
LanguageSuccessChance.png

[Image of a success chance breakdown]

Now, the process of learning a language can be quite entertaining. There are many events that can happen along the way; being helped by friends or family, opposed by rivals, and so on. Here are a handful of examples of what can happen during the course of learning a language:

LearnLanguageEvent1.png

[Image of your Court Tutor helping you]

If you have a particularly good Court Tutor, they can guide your efforts along very speedily.

LearnLanguageEvent2.png

[Image of a rival ruining your notes]

Beware your rivals, lest they release ink-soaked birds in your study...

LearnLanguageEvent3.png

[Image of a very amorous misunderstanding]

Sometimes learning a language doesn’t result in what you’d expect...

LearnLanguageEvent4.png

[Image of the Byzantine Emperor with a “It’s just a prank, bro”-smile]

Sometimes your target might find your efforts laughable, and try to make fun of you.

LearnLanguageEvent5.png

[Image of a merchant offering you a book]

Of course, there is an opportunity to gain a trinket-slot item that’ll help your efforts along.

LearnLanguageEvent6.png

[Image of someone offering to help]

As learning a language isn’t secret, sometimes you’ll get offers from other rulers to help you… for a price.

When the scheme completes, you have a chance of success and failure. If you’re brave, you might even choose to test your new abilities right away by penning a letter to your target!
SuccessEvent.png

[Image of a successful scheme]

FailEvent.png

[Image of a failed scheme]

Of course, you might find that others are emulating you in their efforts to learn your language. This gives you the opportunity to praise their efforts, or perhaps you’d rather ridicule them?
SomeoneLearnedYourLanguage.png

[Image of someone learning your language]

That’s it for this week! Now, this isn’t the only way languages are used in the game… next week we will dive into another use for them, something which ties directly into the mechanics of the Royal Court!
 
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Actively forgetting languages sounds really unrealistic to me. Sure, you can forget languages that you are not actively using, but you will not forget those that you do and you don't need to take a special effort to remember things you use every day. Therefore actively used languages should neither be forgotten ever or count towards a language limit.

I suggest marking a language as actively used if it is spoken
  • By you (native tongue)
  • In your capital
  • In your clergy
  • In the court of your liege
  • In your bedroom (lovers, spouses,...)
 
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As almost anyone can be the target of the scheme, a strong bonus should be added if the target is in your court (and a weaker one if (s)he is in your realm). Learning a language from someone on the other side of the world can be much more difficult than from your spouse.

Extinct languages can be learned (Latin, Sanskrit etc.)? I could be a base to read (and write!) artifact books. In medieval Europe, almost all books are written in Latin or in another ancient language.
 
The word "hussy" was not in use during the Middle Ages. First known usage was in the 16th century I believe :)
 
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Is it possible for new languages to be formed, incorporating elements of the original two? There could be an achievement for mixing a certain amount: "Love and Esperanto!"
 
Perhaps it's me, but isn't forgetting a language by hand like super unrealistic?
no. i can tell you that if you don't use it, you lose it.
 
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OK, so at the moment we have personal schemes and hostile schemes. Is this new learning scheme going to be a third type of scheme or take a "slot" from the existing ones? As in, can I still seduce my sister and plot to murder my father while I learn Persian? Or was this answered already and I missed it?
 
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No, but if you try to learn the language of someone sharing your culture's heritage, you'll get a bonus. A lot of very similar languages are grouped together regardless (see the culture DevDiaries).
Please, for the love of God, reconsider this system. This would mean that a czech character would have to study as hard to learn croatian as he'd have to study to learn songhai or mongolic. The slavs are currently split up into three distinct heritage groups, despite their migrations occuring a mere 400-500 years ago! At the point of the earlier startdate, it could be argued that these represent different dialects rather than distinct languages.
I really hope distinctions such as "Lechitic" will at least be reserved for the 1066 start date, any earlier than that the smallest distinction you should make should be "West Slavic"
From wikipedia: "West Slavic as a group distinct from Common Slavic thus emerges during the 7th to 9th centuries. The Czech-Slovak in turn develops as a separate dialect continuum within West Slavic during roughly the 10th to 12th centuries, just predating the first written attestation of the language in the 13th to 14th centuries."

Some other examples of how atrocious this approach would be:
- Greek characters would have an easier time than persian characters learning the alan language , despite alan being an iranic language!
- Hausa is culturally grouped together with a lot of cultures which speak Nilo-Saharan languages such as the "Tubu" language metioned in the DD. But Hausa is an afro-asiatic language, giving hausa characters an easy time to learn a language which is ABSOLUTETLY UNRELATED to their language. (Greek and iranian are at least both indo-european)
- In fact, if you look at the Nilo-Saharan languages you see what you're missing out on by tying language relatedness to cultural heritage: The N-S languages encompass among others Songhai, Kanuri and Nubian. In CK3, these three cultures belong to three completely different regional cultural heritage groups. But nevertheless, they share a fascinating commonality in their language family. This could be an additional layer of relatedness which would greatly increase variety and immersion!

If you want to use this system, the cultural heritage groupings have to be reorganized!

One a positive note, the division into Shaz Turkic and (presumably) Oghur turkic is a very elegant and to my understanding a sensible split. I presume Oghur turkic will be spoken by the Chuvashs, Bolghars, Avars and possibly the Chazars.
 
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Please, for the love of God, reconsider this system. This would mean that a czech character would have to study as hard to learn croatian as he'd have to study to learn songhai or mongolic. The slavs are currently split up into three distinct heritage groups, despite their migrations occuring a mere 400-500 years ago! At the point of the earlier startdate, it could be argued that these represent different dialects rather than distinct languages.
I really hope distinctions such as "Lechitic" will at least be reserved for the 1066 start date, any earlier than that the smallest distinction you should make should be "West Slavic"
From wikipedia: "West Slavic as a group distinct from Common Slavic thus emerges during the 7th to 9th centuries. The Czech-Slovak in turn develops as a separate dialect continuum within West Slavic during roughly the 10th to 12th centuries, just predating the first written attestation of the language in the 13th to 14th centuries."

Some other examples of how atrocious this approach would be:
- Greek characters would have an easier time than persian characters learning the alan language , despite alan being an iranic language!
- Hausa is culturally grouped together with a lot of cultures which speak Nilo-Saharan languages such as the "Tubu" language metioned in the DD. But Hausa is an afro-asiatic language, giving hausa characters an easy time to learn a language which is ABSOLUTETLY UNRELATED to their language. (Greek and iranian are at least both indo-european)
- In fact, if you look at the Nilo-Saharan languages you see what you're missing out on by tying language relatedness to cultural heritage: The N-S languages encompass among others Songhai, Kanuri and Nubian. In CK3, these three cultures belong to three completely different regional cultural heritage groups. But nevertheless, they share a fascinating commonality in their language family. This could be an additional layer of relatedness which would greatly increase variety and immersion!

If you want to use this system, the cultural heritage groupings have to be reorganized!

One a positive note, the division into Shaz Turkic and (presumably) Oghur turkic is a very elegant and to my understanding a sensible split. I presume Oghur turkic will be spoken by the Chuvashs, Bolghars, Avars and possibly the Chazars.
Mirror Monkey made an excellent point, unless you consolidate Languages or Heritages further - which will not always be accurate AND dig into the gameplay quality in some areas - we will need a way to tie Languages beyond Heritage: Language Families.
 
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Perhaps it's me, but isn't forgetting a language by hand like super unrealistic?
Not instantanely as they want implement, but yeah. If you don't practice or use that language unless you keep studying eventually you'll not remember it, it's not like riding bicycle, specially if the languages has different "trees" like Latin and Slavic? If a person speaks from the branch of Latin andas native and learn slavic, unless she lives and uses everyday or keeps studying she won't master it, and eventually will forget it.
 
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I think it might be more scientific to introduce a forgetting curve on foreign languages, and add a significant penalty on forgetting when exceeding foreign language limit. Also, languages close to one's native language (like in same cultural group) should be easier to learn.
 
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Actual, its the other way around. The Anglo-Saxon mercenary brought from Northern Germany to England around 500 AD and brought their language to England.
Ah, true, I think what I meant to say was more along the lines of English and German having diverged from each other.

Just perusing Wikipedia real quick, it looks like Old English, Old Frisian, Old Dutch, and High German had all diverged from West Germanic by the time ck3 takes place, if I'm understanding the chronology correctly.
 
As almost anyone can be the target of the scheme, a strong bonus should be added if the target is in your court (and a weaker one if (s)he is in your realm). Learning a language from someone on the other side of the world can be much more difficult than from your spouse.
It sounds like you're not learning the language from the target - they aren't taking any active role in your studies. They're just like a nebulous inspiration for your efforts.
 
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Do the languages you already know affect the cap or the learning process itself for new languages?

Eg: May be if you know Spanish, it shouldn't be so hard to learn Catalan or Italian or French; or if you know Swedish, it should not be so difficult to learn Danish and Norwegian and may be these languages shouldn't count against your cap. But if you are German and try to learn, say Russian, it should be harder and it should definitely count against the cap.

And how are you handling languages such as Latin which most of the priesthood or royalty knew?
 
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Thank you for the link LAF1994 - it still seems to me that ’Englisc’ or ‘Ænglisc’ or ‘Anglisc’ (or even simply ‘Anglo-Saxon’ if modern names for the languages are being used) should be used as the name of the language spoken specifically by the Anglo-Saxon culture, assuming they have their own unique language in the game rather than one shared with the later ‘English’ culture and later ‘Scottish’ culture.

I say this on the basis that, as I understand it, Anglic languages are a group of languages (including later forms of English as well as Scots, which as I understand developed after the Norman Conquest from a form of Middle English, and several extinct Irish languages which also developed after the Norman Conquest from Middle English) rather than the name of any one particular language. From what I can see ‘Anglic’ is also a modern term.
 
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I don't see how Paradox could not have a team working on AI at all times. I mean, do you really expect them to say "Nah, Robert our sound engineer is the only one programming the AI for CK3" ?

Because they haven't mentioned any AI improvements or changes for this expansion that I've seen? Sure, they have an AI team making the AI work with the new expansion, but do they have one working on making the AI play more like the personality traits of the characters in game? I want a dev diary on what does the future of AI look like in CK3. What are they working on to improve?

I love this game, but to me the biggest jump in quality is when they can get the AI thinking and playing like their personality of a character.
 
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just on learning closely related languages, i doubt there'll be much incentive for the player to even do that.

since the point of the exercise is to remove 'different culture' penalties, the player is incentivised to try for a more 'distant' language rather than a 'closer' one.