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CK3 Dev Diary #77 - Becoming a Polyglot

Greetings!

As you all know, one of the new Cultural Pillars each Culture has is their native Language. Now, what effect does language have? At its very core, Languages affect the Baseline acceptance between cultures - if two Cultures share the same Language Pillar, they’ll like each other better. But that’s not all, characters can also learn additional languages!

So, why do you want to learn a language? Knowing a language cuts the (rather hefty) opinion penalties for Different Culture in half, both for Characters and Counties. Planning on conquering a foreign kingdom? Start your conquest by mastering their language, making subsequent control of your new subjects just that much easier! The less accepted your culture is, the more impact learning a language will have.

Now for the more pertinent question, how do you learn another language? You learn new languages through scheming!
SchemeInteraction.png

[Image showing the Learn Language interaction]

LanguageSchemeStart.png

[Image showing the Start Scheme window]

‘Learn Language’ is a Learning-based scheme, where progress and chance of success are primarily derived from how scholarly your character is. This scheme is available to everyone, even young children (who have a vastly increased chance of success/progress, by virtue of being young, less tired, and having working brains). It targets someone who natively speaks the language, having you try to emulate them. While the exact target you choose is less important than in other types of schemes, you might still get opportunities to interact with them.

Now, learning languages takes quite some time. Though it’s possible to significantly speed up the process by employing a Court Tutor!
CourtTutor.png

[Image of a Court Tutor]

You will also find that bonuses for this scheme have been added throughout the existing Lifestyle trees. Some examples:
  • Adaptive Traditions - Unlocks an additional Learn Language Scheme
  • Embassies - Increases Scheme Power
  • Chains of Loyalty - Increases Scheme Power
  • Pedagogy - Increases Scheme Success Chance
  • Open-Minded - Increases the Language Limit
  • Smooth Operator - Increases the Language Limit

If the scheme is invalidated by, for example, the target dying, your progress is retained and you get the opportunity to choose a new target.
InvalidationEvent.png

[Image of Invalidation Event]

When we first talked about languages, we had some people (rightfully) point out that decreasing the chance of success the more languages you know isn’t very logical. We still needed a way to prevent characters from knowing all the languages in the world, and thus we introduced the concept of a Foreign Language Limit. This represents how many languages a character can comfortably remember.

KnownLanguages.png

[Image of Language Limit]

If a character exceeds their Foreign Language Limit, they will start getting events about feeling overwhelmed, giving you the choice between forgetting a language or gaining stress. In a sense, this system is very similar to how we handle characters having too many lovers.

Of course, a character can never forget the language that is native to their culture, and that language isn’t included in the limit (as you can see in the above screenshot, Telugu isn’t included in the limit as it is his native language).

The Foreign Language Limit is affected by many things, but primarily by a character’s Learning score, where every 5 attribute points increases the limit by one.

With this change, we’ve made it so that the more languages you know, the higher your success chance is for learning additional languages. You have the basics down already, after all.
LanguageSuccessChance.png

[Image of a success chance breakdown]

Now, the process of learning a language can be quite entertaining. There are many events that can happen along the way; being helped by friends or family, opposed by rivals, and so on. Here are a handful of examples of what can happen during the course of learning a language:

LearnLanguageEvent1.png

[Image of your Court Tutor helping you]

If you have a particularly good Court Tutor, they can guide your efforts along very speedily.

LearnLanguageEvent2.png

[Image of a rival ruining your notes]

Beware your rivals, lest they release ink-soaked birds in your study...

LearnLanguageEvent3.png

[Image of a very amorous misunderstanding]

Sometimes learning a language doesn’t result in what you’d expect...

LearnLanguageEvent4.png

[Image of the Byzantine Emperor with a “It’s just a prank, bro”-smile]

Sometimes your target might find your efforts laughable, and try to make fun of you.

LearnLanguageEvent5.png

[Image of a merchant offering you a book]

Of course, there is an opportunity to gain a trinket-slot item that’ll help your efforts along.

LearnLanguageEvent6.png

[Image of someone offering to help]

As learning a language isn’t secret, sometimes you’ll get offers from other rulers to help you… for a price.

When the scheme completes, you have a chance of success and failure. If you’re brave, you might even choose to test your new abilities right away by penning a letter to your target!
SuccessEvent.png

[Image of a successful scheme]

FailEvent.png

[Image of a failed scheme]

Of course, you might find that others are emulating you in their efforts to learn your language. This gives you the opportunity to praise their efforts, or perhaps you’d rather ridicule them?
SomeoneLearnedYourLanguage.png

[Image of someone learning your language]

That’s it for this week! Now, this isn’t the only way languages are used in the game… next week we will dive into another use for them, something which ties directly into the mechanics of the Royal Court!
 
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It was never West Saxon, since it was formed by immigrant Saxon, Frisian, and Angle populations.
Think it was more Angle, Saxon and Jutes rather than Frisian?
 
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Its more that I find the mechanic of 'unlearning' a language wildly unrealistic. Where not every mechanic has to be entirely 100% accurate, this is definitely very very unrealistic to happen in practice.

Thats why my suggestion is to not have the option to unlearn languages, but only have the stress events from knowing too much. But making it -very- clear that that is the choice you are making as a player and that that is the consequence of said choice. (E.g. ultimate psijic path in Stellaris, its made -very- clear what taking that choice is going to do)

Gonna go out on a limb and say the point of CK is not to be a realistic medieval sim, its just a mechanic to manage this new way characters interact don't overthink it
 
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Nice system. Glad that it will take time and effort to learn a language, as opposed to something like "click button to spend 250 x to learn y language".
 
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It's not laziness or incompetence for a person whose job it is to be a content designer to know how to work the content scripting system but not the game engine. That's not a shortcoming of the person doing the work, that's just what their job is.
Sure, but somebody has to be assigned that job in the first place, they don't just randomly choose to do it, which brings me to my next point...

Right, I mean there's no reason for it to be a scheme in the first place, other than, presumably, this task was assigned to a content designer who knows how to write new script files but not how to implement new game engine mechanics.
I'm not sure how you can read this statement and not come away the impression that you believe that incompetence and laziness is why learning a new language is a scheme. Do you really think language learning was just handed to somebody and they were told to design it without additional input? Do you really think someone was told that it was the their job to implement characters learning a language from start to finish with no instructions from higher ups on the dev team? I find it hard to believe that there weren't brainstorming sessions where some number of devs tried to figure out the best way to implement learning languages and arrived at doing it as a scheme, for whatever reason, including time limitations.

I would hope that if we're going to get more learning schemes in the future, that'd it become to worth it to build the infrastructure to handle them well, rather than rely on shortcuts and shoe-horning.
What I'm saying is that it seems clear that we're getting a system has been designed around engine limitations, rather than a system that the engine was modified to support.
Really? Can you definitely prove that? Maybe there were other ideas that the devs had but the engine couldn't be modified to work with them so they decided to use scheme instead. You've just asserted that there is no logical reason for learning schemes to be schemes instead of just asking the devs why they learning a language is a scheme.
 
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Sure, but somebody has to be assigned that job in the first place, they don't just randomly choose to do it, which brings me to my next point...


I'm not sure how you can read this statement and not come away the impression that you believe that incompetence and laziness is why learning a new language is a scheme. Do you really think language learning was just handed to somebody and they were told to design it without additional input? Do you really think someone was told that it was the their job to implement characters learning a language from start to finish with no instructions from higher ups on the dev team? I find it hard to believe that there weren't brainstorming sessions where some number of devs tried to figure out the best way to implement learning languages and arrived at doing it as a scheme, for whatever reason, including time limitations.



Really? Can you definitely prove that? Maybe there were other ideas that the devs had but the engine couldn't be modified to work with them so they decided to use scheme instead. You've just asserted that there is no logical reason for learning schemes to be schemes instead of just asking the devs why they learning a language is a scheme.
I think that what happened is that, when work for the DLC was being divided up, they assigned the language system to a content designer, and as a result, the language system is implemented via the scripting system using the tools available. I think that this is just the natural result of dividing the dev team between content developers who work in the script system and engine developers. It's not a slight against the people who are content developers, they are not lazy or incompetent - they're creative and clever for finding a way to make this system work in a framework that wasn't designed for it.

Obviously I can't *prove* that - I'm only giving my opinion that I think it's what happened and that I think the evidence is clear. I don't buy that the "engine couldn't be modified" to support the simple process of learning a language. If they felt that was worth the effort, of *course* they could have done that. But they chose not to. And it seems to me that the likely reason is that they would have had to devote programmer time to it otherwise, and that time is needed for other more pressing work. Deciding how to allocate developer time is always going to be a tradeoff. I'm just making the point that I think the tradeoff choice here has resulting a stilted and awkward implementation where the seams really show.

But the idea that the task of learning a language is best represented as a plot in which you target someone who knows the language, and that that person is not really involved in your learning (they are not teaching you or anything, but they might show up in peripheral events), is incredibly contrived. I find it very hard to believe that someone whiteboarding the system would have come up with that approach unless they had already decided it had to be worked into an existing mechanic.
 
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Old English is though. Old English is already pretty distinct from Frisian and other Germanic languages by 867. It was often termed Ænglic, or Ænglicsh. It was never West Saxon, since it was formed by immigrant Saxon, Frisian, and Angle populations.
Old English ceased to be a ‘living’ language in about the 12th Century (when it merged with the Norman French) and is very similar to low German from the same period. Back to my original question, would have a English conqueror of a county or duchy in North Germany or Denmark a base line bonus compared to conquering a county or duchy in France (since they sharing languages that were very similar in that time period)? Since this is all about a game mechanic about language...
 
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Old English ceased to be a ‘living’ language in about the 12th Century (when it merged with the Norman French) and is very similar to low German from the same period. Back to my original question, would have a English conqueror of a county or duchy in North Germany or Denmark a base line bonus compared to conquering a county or duchy in France? Since this is all about a game mechanic about language...
Probably not since they already said that the language pillar is just the spoken language. They aren't grouped into their IRL families. Instead by the similarity of their pillars. Since language is just one, it depends on the other pillars too.
 
Instead of a limit, wouldn't it be better to make languages harder to learn when you get old and taking several years to master?
As you can only learn one language at the same time and as it limits your plot slots, I think it is already a good nerf.

Moreover, what about having to learn a language to be able to culture convert?
 
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Perhaps it's me, but isn't forgetting a language by hand like super unrealistic?

And I absolutely get that knowing too many languages will probably be OP so there has to be a downside. For this reason I have a few alternatives that are easy to implement:

1.Make going above the cap only increase stress and be very clear about this mechanic. (Red pop ups when learning more languages, like in Stellaris when choosing some decisions) Let us find other ways to get rid of said stress! Combine this with a 'sticking' cap, if you could learn four languages and you did that, your minimum cap will be 4 regardless of modifiers. If you could learn four languages and you did not than you'd still lose that slot.

2.Make the cap a hardcap, its atleast not as mind boggling as 'unlearing' a language.

3.Make each language you learn less effective if its above the cap, see it as confusing in words or grammar, you aren't mentally able to process all that kind of info. So you mix things up more?

Of these I'd probably say the first suggestion is best though followed by the second which is unrealistic but atleast more realistic than simply forgetting a language at will.
I personally don't see it as it being unlearnt. Rather that you're not maintaining your ability to speak it and so forget how to.
 
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Theres many things here im not sure about.

First of all, learning language being a scheme is a bit double edged sword I feel like. On the other hand it gives more uses to the mechanic, as you are often in a situation where swaying etc. anyone isn't really helpful, so you can use your scheme for learning a language intead. Actually, using the scheme mechanic for many different things would make it so you have always some sort of scheme going, and you would need to prioritize what you gonna do. So it could be really good actually. But on the other hand, learning a language does not feel like a scheme really, and in the long run the scheme mechanic could get quite messy. Also the tooltips really need updating I feel like, as it is strange to see learning language being affected by your targets "resistance to schemes".

Tutor giving bonus to learning language is good, but the bonus should not be that great unless the tutor knows the language too. Maybe the tutor too should learn the language as you do, as if he is gonna help you, he needs to study the language too. Maybe tutors could also do learn language schemes themselves to improve their professional knowledge.

Forgetting languages does not seem that realistic. Like of course it is possible and for example I studied German for years, but now I remember pretty much nothing grom it. Forgetting a language should somehow be connected to how much the character uses the language. Maybe for example if for some language you dont really have any counties, vassals, courtiers, friends etc. then that language would be the one to be forgotten. An alternative would be maybe to just have some sort of penalty while learning a language. It takes a lot of effort to learn a language, so maybe the actual learning process should give you stress and also give penalty to your other attributes, as learning the language takes your time away from other things.

Overall seems good, but I think some minor refinements should be made.
 
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hello, great diary !! Will a character adopting a culture in the middle of his life have to learn the language of the culture or will this happen instantly (which is cheated)? Other questions but which has no link with the dev diarry, will the languages be "static" or will they evolve over time? (creation of a new language by the games as time goes by, example: creation of "Franglais" for a hybrid "Franco-English" culture) (and if not, it will be possible to modify it) Thank you for your answers!!
 
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Is there any kind of bonus to learning the language of your parent that you don't share your native language with (e.g. You are of English culture and have and English father and French mother, do you get a bonus to learning French or have a chance to gain it growing up do to being exposed to it from a young age).

No, but if you try to learn the language of someone sharing your culture's heritage, you'll get a bonus. A lot of very similar languages are grouped together regardless (see the culture DevDiaries)
While I like the idea of a bonus to learning a language from someone you share a cultural heritage with. I was hoping language families (or really sub-families for a lot of languages, as Indo-European is a *little* too big to be used in game) would be added to one give other players an avenue to learn about them and also, I think for many cultures it could make a good high level grouping (and for language isolates it adds a bit of uniqueness).

So for instance, an Anglo-Saxon who knows Anglic might want to learn Norse (or whatever the language of the Norse will be called). From what is shown it seems that Anglo-Saxon and Norse character won't share a cultural heritage as based on the Bavarian reveal, I'm guessing one will have the West-Germanic heritage and the other will be North-Germanic. So despite both being relatively highly related languages, there will be no difference for Anglic speaker to learn Norse versus Chinese.

Plus language families could tie into the polyglot thing where a native Anglic speaker could get a bonus to learning Spanish if they already know French (assuming French and Spanish are separate languages in CK3 and both in the Romance language family, but you get the idea).

Now I probably wouldn't have language families have any direct benefit besides this boost to language learning to act as a more subtle bonus to improving relations between different certain cultures.
 
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