CO Word of the Week #5

[timfrombriz]

I don't want time to turn back.
I want answers.
I want to know why they released the game in this condition. Especially since they knew that the game was buggy and had problems with simulation.
I want to know what they were thinking when releasing such a game, nothing more. And I don't want to hear that they were guided by the good of the players.

You want? If your not satisfied, get a refund. If your seller wont issue a refund, then do what others are doing and come back later down the track.

The game has a solid foundation, a lot of the modders are really happy with what their discovering in the codebase, the game has a great foundation to build on. A lot of the limitation and restriction in the CS1 codebase arent there, theres really exciting pathways for modders to take this. Modders are already releasing some fantastic improvements, tackle that onto whats to come direct from CO, its going to be an exciting 2024.

It was a rocky release, its been highlighted, its been acknowledged, stop screaming like your owed something PERSONALLY and move on. Mistakes happen, the CEO of Colossal Order has repeatedly apologised for dissapointing you, case closed.

 

[unmerged(524934)]

I don't want time to turn back.
I want answers.
I want to know why they released the game in this condition. Especially since they knew that the game was buggy and had problems with simulation.
I want to know what they were thinking when releasing such a game, nothing more. And I don't want to hear that they were guided by the good of the players.

I'm very much with you on this but honestly, we're not going to get an answer. @co_martsu has already said that a) she believes that despite everything the game was in a good enough state to release (to us PC players obviously, because unlike consoles there are no certification programmes you have to adhere to so you can just shovel anything out the door if you were so minded); and that b) despite appearances seemingly to the contrary, she and the team were honest with the marketing. So, in a nice twist of irony, like failed city builder SimCity we won't really know what happened behind the scenes until much later.

To be fair, she has apologised for her Patrick Soderlund moment earlier this week so that was good.

 

[Otis Slayer]

You want? If your not satisfied, get a refund. If your seller wont issue a refund, then do what others are doing and come back later down the track.

The game has a solid foundation, a lot of the modders are really happy with what their discovering in the codebase, the game has a great foundation to build on. A lot of the limitation and restriction in the CS1 codebase arent there, theres really exciting pathways for modders to take this. Modders are already releasing some fantastic improvements, tackle that onto whats to come direct from CO, its going to be an exciting 2024.

It was a rocky release, its been highlighted, its been acknowledged, stop screaming like your owed something PERSONALLY and move on. Mistakes happen, the CEO of Colossal Order has repeatedly apologised for dissapointing you, case closed.

I won't issue a refund like many players because I've already exceeded 2 hours, so I have to wait for a better game.
But I didn't pay to play CSII later because it has problems. I don't buy a new graphics card that doesn't work on the day of release so that I can use it as a full-fledged product a year(?) later.
And yes, it's also my fault for buying this game so early. It's my fault for falling into their marketing trap. And I'm probably not the only one.

I don't understand players who try hard to defend games with problems (bugs, optimization, etc.). Do you really want every game to be released in this condition? In an unplayable state? This amounts to masochism.
Do you want another Cyberbug 2077? I don't. And I love The Witcher 3, and I also love Cities Skylines. But I can't look at what creators do with their next creations. If CSII looks like a premiere, how can we be sure that CSIII (maybe in 10 years, if it is created) won't be in even worse condition?
I am grateful to the developers for their games, but I cannot forgive them for making such mistakes. I don't want this to be standardized in the market.
It starts with one game, and then it will be like armor for a horse.

 

[DiNardo1910]

Those of us who are over 2 hours on Steam and want a refund, should be able to get one.

If your apology is real, please work with Steam to open up refunds.

I feel deceived and want my money back.

 

[MohawkWolfo98]

You want? If your not satisfied, get a refund. If your seller wont issue a refund, then do what others are doing and come back later down the track.

The game has a solid foundation, a lot of the modders are really happy with what their discovering in the codebase, the game has a great foundation to build on. A lot of the limitation and restriction in the CS1 codebase arent there, theres really exciting pathways for modders to take this. Modders are already releasing some fantastic improvements, tackle that onto whats to come direct from CO, its going to be an exciting 2024.

It was a rocky release, its been highlighted, its been acknowledged, stop screaming like your owed something PERSONALLY and move on. Mistakes happen, the CEO of Colossal Order has repeatedly apologised for dissapointing you, case closed.

It can be both. We can both accept that what is done is done, but also want answers as to why they released it in such a state, even though we won’t get one.

Mistakes do happen in development, but they have stated multiple times that they are satisfied with the games release and simulation, which to me is definitely not so. There is a clear mismatch between players and company which is concerning. CS2 is critically not a better game, and the playerbase agrees with there being almost the same number as CS1 then CS2.

 

[humorpalanta]

Okay, lets get a few things str8.
I am mad that a completely different thing was adverted than what I received.

I am also a terrible human being and bad communicator.

However I love CS1 and love the idea of what CS2 aimes to be.

I am mad at CO for what they did bit I don't want to hurt the people working there and I feel bad about all this backlash and negative comments on the forum.

I am also certain it was hard for @co_martsu as well. Simce handling this mess is heavy on a person. But I can support them if they stick to the promise and create and actual and working economy.

I don't want to hirt them. I want to support them. We wrote down everything already. We don't need to keep repeating it. We just need to give them time to act on it.

It is visible we will receive patches. Obviously small bugs are easier to fix. We accept these. But please make it clear you will attempt to create the game you promised.

 

[ifredn]

You want? If your not satisfied, get a refund. If your seller wont issue a refund, then do what others are doing and come back later down the track.

The game has a solid foundation, a lot of the modders are really happy with what their discovering in the codebase, the game has a great foundation to build on. A lot of the limitation and restriction in the CS1 codebase arent there, theres really exciting pathways for modders to take this. Modders are already releasing some fantastic improvements, tackle that onto whats to come direct from CO, its going to be an exciting 2024.

It was a rocky release, its been highlighted, its been acknowledged, stop screaming like your owed something PERSONALLY and move on. Mistakes happen, the CEO of Colossal Order has repeatedly apologised for dissapointing you, case closed.

That´s probably the short-sightest thing I have ever read.

We don´t know how half of the economy SHOULD work and are therefore not even able to provide qualified feedback instead of a stupid "doesnt work" and you are telling me to handle this "case closed".

I lol ´d. Loud.

Instead of doing "management by information hiding" we - and the "we" are the people that are still here, paid for the game and are more than willing to help - get enough information to provide qualified feedback. This would make life so much easier, for everyone who is in the same boat - the players, the testers, the developers.

400 Bugs. I´ll bet that 200 of them would be wiped out in no time if we know what is really going on under the hood.

 

[xagash]

Thank you. Please check the upcoming patch and keep the feedback coming!
We're working through all known issues and doing our best to improve the game so that you can enjoy it like you did the first one.

Hi,
I'm expecting to enjoy the sequel more than the first one and not as. Keep working guys and get the "indefectible love" steam's award in the future
Regards

 

[timfrombriz]

So much energy is being wasted in being angry and upset. I get the frustration, but it really doesnt get you or the community anywhere.

Theres definitely a large degree of people feeling invested in this game for this much frustration to be vented, and may I suggest it may be more worthwild to step over into the CS2 modding discord.

Theres already guides on all forms of modding, map creation etc. Players like you are there working it out 'together' on how to make this game better for everyone. Sharing information, writing guides, and releasing their work as they find ways to fix and improve CS2. Its a much better use of time then banging on the table demanding answers and being upset.

For example, you can already unlock the editor, load in heightmaps, and make maps, its all been worked out and done by the community. Its not polished, but its doable and as time goes on, the community will write tools to make this even more streamlined.

 

[ClemiMD]

I want to know why they released the game in this condition. Especially since they knew that the game was buggy and had problems with simulation.
I want to know what they were thinking when releasing such a game, nothing more. And I don't want to hear that they were guided by the good of the players.

Quite simply. They thought: Hey, we promise our customers an awesome product and deliberately deliver junk. That might ruin us and we might get a bad reputation, we might have to close the store and lay off our employees. But it's worth it to us because we love shitstorms and angry customers. Come on, let's really rip people off!

[irony off]

Anyone who believes they have purchased a defective product can make use of their warranty claims with the seller. Ultimately, everyone has the right to take legal action. It doesn't get any better just by complaining.

 

[vvilku]

So much energy is being wasted in being angry and upset. I get the frustration, but it really doesnt get you or the community anywhere.

There will soon be no community here anyway.

Theres definitely a large degree of people feeling invested in this game for this much frustration to be vented, and may I suggest it may be more worthwild to step over into the CS2 modding discord.

Why?

Theres already guides on all forms of modding, map creation etc. Players like you are there working it out 'together' on how to make this game better for everyone. Sharing information, writing guides, and releasing their work as they find ways to fix and improve CS2. Its a much better use of time then banging on the table demanding answers and being upset.

Why? why do you normalise underdelivery and low quality? Would you buy a car that needs a comunity to be even usable??? I don't think so.

For example, you can already unlock the editor, load in heightmaps, and make maps, its all been worked out and done by the community. Its not polished, but its doable and as time goes on, the community will write tools to make this even more streamlined.

Which is what should have been done BEFORE the release. Again: you wouldn't be happy if the car dealer told you, that the brakes will be installed in a public recall "as soon as possible"...

 

[Boonatix]

I don't want time to turn back.
I want answers.
I want to know why they released the game in this condition. Especially since they knew that the game was buggy and had problems with simulation.
I want to know what they were thinking when releasing such a game, nothing more. And I don't want to hear that they were guided by the good of the players.

Yeah we all wanna know so many things but... guess what? We are not entitled to know everything we want to know just because we WANT it or think we deserve it. Just because you bought a product does not entitle you to any special rights now if people could show such an engagement for truly troubling, global issues... woah, what a world it could be!

 

[co_martsu]

To everyone here: I get there's anger and disappointment, but I really need you to be respectful to each other. You and I are part of this community and we are the ones making the choices on how we want this experience to be. There is enough negativity in the world that we should at least try to make this community a positive experience by keeping the discussions, even the hard ones, constructive. We're not perfect, but let's be kind to each other.

Do you want another Cyberbug 2077? I don't. And I love The Witcher 3, and I also love Cities Skylines. But I can't look at what creators do with their next creations. If CSII looks like a premiere, how can we be sure that CSIII (maybe in 10 years, if it is created) won't be in even worse condition?
I am grateful to the developers for their games, but I cannot forgive them for making such mistakes. I don't want this to be standardized in the market.
It starts with one game, and then it will be like armor for a horse.

Trust is hard. After losing it, it will take time to rebuild. And we must now do the work. Mistakes have been made but I believe in learning and that growth both emotional and professional is possible, if there is will. So whatever the next title coming from this company is we are wiser both during the development phase and the release. However these words mean very little now, we will just have to prove ourselves with the next game we release. And first, I hope, we can focus on Cities: Skylines II for about a decade.

It can be both. We can both accept that what is done is done, but also want answers as to why they released it in such a state, even though we won’t get one.

Mistakes do happen in development, but they have stated multiple times that they are satisfied with the games release and simulation, which to me is definitely not so. I’m glad she apologised, but CO still seem to find the games simulation etc acceptable.

I believe there is greatness in the game. It's not translating to the players as we hoped it would and that is something we are working on to improve. I am proud for the work done and even if we did run out of time I know the the team and myself are working our hardest to improve game so the experience wouldn't be hindered by the issues. Performance is one thing, bugs another and then we have a wide variety of feedback to work through.

 

[arufasari]

All of these complaints about performance sound overblown. [profanity moderated out]

I'm a network engineer and app developer of almost 20 years. I'm still writing modern software in 8 different programming languages every year. I test dozens of games throughout the year on multiple PCs in my house. This game is one of those.

I played the original CS1 for over 15000 hours. I played Sim City 2013 for 7700 hours. Don't even get me started on Sim City 3000 or the AoE/AoM games.

On top of knowing exactly what it takes for this genre of game to be good, I know what it takes to build PCs and run software on them.


On a 7950X3D, 64GB DDR5, 4080 system on a high end Asus motherboard using a 2TB Samsung NVMe gen 4 drive, this game runs nearly flawless. I have small hiccups that occur when I rapidly try to zoom in or wiggle around in a small area a lot. Otherwise, this game runs 100% no issue at 1080p, 1440p and any other modes I set it to.

On a 5800X, 32GB DDR4, 6650 XT system on a MSI motherboard from early 2022 with a 2TB Silicon Power SSD, the performance is excellent, with slightly more instances of stuttering on zoomed out and zoomed in map movement. Otherwise, the game runs 98-99% at 1440p. No issues.

On a 2700x system with 64GB DDR4, a GTX 1050ti low profile using a 1TB Silicon Power SSD, I see about 80% performance. There's about 5% of my gameplay over 35 hours in CS2 on this machine where I can say you can see graphical issues like stuttering and lagginess. Otherwise, the game plays perfectly fine at 1080p.

So based on the above, truth be told, it sounds like maybe the problem is two things:

1. You support Intel which is already a crazy stupid decision for your CPU or

2. You should listen to the CEO. You wasted your money and this definitely isn't the game for you. It took almost 8 years to finish Cities Skylines 1 after they released it, and I bought that game in 2014.

You should have known what to expect. Maxis died because they couldn't release a product that progressed the genre or changed it in any way. Colossal Order has shown that they're willing to make significant strides to change the genre of city building games. I'd say the only reasonable option for anyone is it to give it time.

[rude parts moderated out]

 

[MenschLennart]

To everyone here: I get there's anger and disappointment, but I really need you to be respectful to each other. You and I are part of this community and we are the ones making the choices on how we want this experience to be. There is enough negativity in the world that we should at least try to make this community a positive experience by keeping the discussions, even the hard ones, constructive. We're not perfect, but let's be kind to each other.

Trust is hard. After losing it, it will take time to rebuild. And we must now do the work. Mistakes have been made but I believe in learning and that growth both emotional and professional is possible, if there is will. So whatever the next title coming from this company is we are wiser both during the development phase and the release. However these words mean very little now, we will just have to prove ourselves with the next game we release. And first, I hope, we can focus on Cities: Skylines II for about a decade.

I believe there is greatness in the game. It's not translating to the players as we hoped it would and that is something we are working on to improve. I am proud for the work done and even if we did run out of time I know the the team and myself are working our hardest to improve game so the experience wouldn't be hindered by the issues. Performance is one thing, bugs another and then we have a wide variety of feedback to work through.

I think one big reason beside the bugs in the simulation is, that many players don't really understand tasks behind the simulation.
As a modder I got insights in the code and know how certain simulation aspects work. Many of the calculations and tasks are not explained or not explained enough. I think for the regular player base it's not helpful leaving them alone with notification icons all over the place. "high rent".
There must be info regarding why something happens. This could be easily added to the game imo.

 

[vvilku]

I am proud for the work done and even if we did run out of time I know the the team and myself are working our hardest to improve game so the experience wouldn't be hindered by the issues. Performance is one thing, bugs another and then we have a wide variety of feedback to work through.

Just please answer these two questions:

1. Have you personally played the game before the release?
2. Did you have a say about wether to release the game in late Oct 23?

I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Otis Slayer]

So much energy is being wasted in being angry and upset. I get the frustration, but it really doesnt get you or the community anywhere.

Theres definitely a large degree of people feeling invested in this game for this much frustration to be vented, and may I suggest it may be more worthwild to step over into the CS2 modding discord.

Theres already guides on all forms of modding, map creation etc. Players like you are there working it out 'together' on how to make this game better for everyone. Sharing information, writing guides, and releasing their work as they find ways to fix and improve CS2. Its a much better use of time then banging on the table demanding answers and being upset.

For example, you can already unlock the editor, load in heightmaps, and make maps, its all been worked out and done by the community. Its not polished, but its doable and as time goes on, the community will write tools to make this even more streamlined.

I'm not interested in modifications. Only Vanilla.
And even if I were interested, it would probably only be those with "Polish" stores.

EDIT: I will also add that I am generally not interested in modifications in games. I had contact with Nexus for the first time during the premiere of Mount & Blade Bannerlord and Valheim. But these were small modifications.

 

[G315t]

I don't want time to turn back.
I want answers.
I want to know why they released the game in this condition. Especially since they knew that the game was buggy and had problems with simulation.
I want to know what they were thinking when releasing such a game, nothing more. And I don't want to hear that they were guided by the good of the players.

Let's assume they would give you the requested Information which they probaply won't ( pls remember PDX is public shared entity, there may also be legal reasons for why they or CO can not share interna) , what would you do with it? And would you believe their answer?

 

[curry684]

Those of us who are over 2 hours on Steam and want a refund, should be able to get one.

If your apology is real, please work with Steam to open up refunds.

I feel deceived and want my money back.

Stop making a fool of yourself. Here is an actual screenshot of my Steam:

I can still get a refund. You know why? Because I got a preorder months ago, and it took me 2 whole minutes to realize this game was an unplayable piece of crap at launch. It was the 2 minutes it took for my framerate in the menu to stabilize at 2 FPS on an i9 with 32GB RAM and an RTX 4070. I tried it out again on November 9th to check whether the patches had done anything useful, and whether the "recommended settings" made the game playable. Nope.

So ok, I started the game 3 times in total and spent 29 minutes in it. Less than 25% of the time allowed by Steam for me to decide whether I want to keep the game. I decided to keep it because I can see they are honestly trying to get their shit together, and I'll play it in the 3, 6 or 12 months they need to finish it. I could've opted for a refund but I know I'll love the game when it's in the state it should have been at launch. I made a choice.

Now you on the other hand, are making a total fool out of yourself. You knew within the same 2 minutes what I knew after 2 minutes. You could've taken 60 times as long to reach that conclusion. You didn't. You decided to keep playing. For hours. Knowing very well it would invalidate your 'warranty', and every right you had to demand anything with it.

You're like the guy who bought a new BMW, took it for a 2 week holiday abroad, drove 5000 kilometres in it, and then decided to try and get a refund because the color was ugly. You could and should have seen it when you got the car. Instead you kept going and used the product you bought. There are many words for people who try that shit. Most are offensive, none are friendly. You got yourself in this position, and you are still reading the CEO's Word of the Week. Accept what you did and stop blaming others for your own failing.

I'm lurking in these topics because I appreciate CO doing what I expected of them - to own up to their mistakes and try to right their wrongs. And when they've actually implemented basic stuff like occlusion culling and LoD I will start the game again and probably enjoy the same 90FPS on ultra settings I get in UE5 games. I made that choice by deciding not to refund. So did you. Now shut up and accept the consequences of your own actions.

 

[G315t]

I'm not interested in modifications. Only Vanilla.
And even if I were interested, it would probably only be those with "Polish" stores.

EDIT: I will also add that I am generally not interested in modifications in games. I had contact with Nexus for the first time during the premiere of Mount & Blade Bannerlord and Valheim. But these were small modifications.

I also only play without mods. (Well maybe some assets) that's why it is important for me that the game is as good as possible without having mods required to "fix" stuff in the simulation and games systems.