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Conclave Dev Diary #1

Hi folks, I hope you have all had a nice and relaxing holiday! However, just in case you didn’t, let me take the edge off your existential angst with some soothing talk about the next expansion for Crusader Kings II; a little thing we eventually decided to call Conclave...

As you know, most of CK2’s expansions have “widened” the gameplay by unlocking new regions of the map and making various religions playable. You can now start the game in widely different cultural spheres for a great variety of different experiences; “Fifty Shades of Dark”, if you will. Meanwhile, we have gradually improved the core gameplay in patches (e.g. the technology system), but rarely in any radical way. Whenever we did try to “deepen” the core gameplay in an expansion, it often turned out to be a mistake: The Retinue mechanic of Legacy of Rome should, for example, have been a part of the base game so we could have kept building upon it.

Even so, it is high time that we addressed some of the major shortcomings of the strategy game that underpins the RPG experience. In particular, CK2 suffers from a kind of inverse difficulty progression; it is hard in the beginning and easy in the mid-to-late game. This is a great shame, because one of the main points of the whole feudal hierarchy mechanic - the need to rely on vassals - was to make it hard to maintain stable large Realms. So, my first and foremost intention with Conclave was to increase the challenge of the mid-to-late game. This was the general plan of action:

  • Reduce the “positive opinion inflation” of vassals vs their liege. (We ended up cutting many important positive opinion modifiers in half.)
  • Highlight the most powerful vassals by making them strongly desire a Council seat.
  • Give the Council more power without reducing player agency. (You are free to disregard the Council’s suggestions, but this will have ramifications on Factions. More on this later...)
  • Introduce Infamy and Coalitions against aggressively expanding Realms.
  • Improve the alliance mechanic to make it a more intentional choice. (A royal marriage is now simply a non-aggression pact. Alliance is the second step, but still requires a marriage.)
  • Improve the diplomatic AI in order to contain “blobs” (with the help of the above Alliance and Coalition systems.)
  • Bring the military AI to a whole new level.
  • Make it harder to quickly win wars through one or two major engagements. (Hence, we reduced the bloodiness of battles overall, introduced “shattered retreats” and made armies reinforce in friendly territory.)
Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Obligations.jpg


Thus, the features of Conclave and the accompanying patch are a combination of internal and external measures to make blobbing harder. This intention had ripple effects on other mechanics. For example, malcontents now tend to gang up into fewer but more powerful Factions, and we reworked the Law Screen while we were adding the new Council Power laws.

Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Council.jpg


We also took this opportunity to address an unrelated weakness in the game, namely the education of children. If you have the expansion, that whole experience should now be more interesting…

That’s all for now, stay tuned for the details!
 
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Oh, forgot to mention: Does anyone else think, with "The Council" being capitalized and in a different font color, it feels as if it should be followed by an overly dramatic "Dun dun duuuun!"? Or perhaps a dramtic pause between the rest of the sentence and those words? "He expects to be on ... The Council. Dun dun duuuun!"

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Seriously, that tooltip just makes me chuckle.

I'll try and remember to add a sound effect for that :D
 
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Historical accurace? Well it's not needed but having heredetary council membership and the council voting the the emperor actually modells the post golden bull HRE better than kings voting, you can have any number of kings the council is like the electors a set number.

Well hereditary council membership often devolved in a honorific position with someone else representing them for the day to day business (the Hereditary Council Members were present at the Coronations and preformed their ceremonial roles). You're referring to the Golden Bull of 1356 issued by the Imperial Diet headed by Charles IV. It continues on the Declaration of Rhense of 1338. The theory was a bit older though, that already appeared in the Sachsenspiegel (around 1230) with the position of the ruler of Bohemia being controversial. It definitely wasn't an issue yet, when Henry VI had his Erbreichsplan (1196).
Before 1356 the Electoral College was formally responsible to organize the election, but slowly and gradually managed to exclude the other members of the Upper Nobility (first managed to do this in 1257 (during the Great Interregnum), but it wasn't fully accepted by others until 1308 at the earliest), OTOH some of them did feel they ought to be a member of the electoral college too (like duke Rudolf IV of Austria (with the Privilegium Maius of 1356 as his response).
For most of the game the game models the election fine though, it's only late game that a line elector = yes or elector = no would make sense (though elector = no might work to exclude Burgundian and Italian nobles from the election and at the same time making these kingdoms part of the HRE).
 
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Steward I always accept. Spymaster if I have ambitions, others only situationally.

My sneaky, deceitful 27 Intrigue Duke accepted an offer to become the King's Spymaster when he was under regency and again when he came of age. My plot power from me alone started at around 270% and has stayed there for the past 20 years.

Any time I want to . . .
 
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I'll try and remember to add a sound effect for that :D
Play the "war declared" sound effect whenever someone asks to be on the council.
 
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Well hereditary council membership often devolved in a honorific position with someone else representing them for the day to day business (the Hereditary Council Members were present at the Coronations and preformed their ceremonial roles)..
Yeah and why is this a problem? Do you seriously think your vassal kings and dukes actually do most of the stuff they do as councillors? Obviously they delegate.

I think there should be two options here, voting rights 1 tier below 2 tiers below and council only. And heredetary council membership.

The reason we won't get elecor = yes elector = no is that the ck2 team don't like non generic mechnics, they won't do specific HRE mechanics so you'll have to find a way to model the HRE's system with a more general approach. My idea has that, sure itäs not perfect but it's closer than "Kings can vote".

Also what's with the small wikipedia article I think we're all familiar with the concepts, if there's somethign you feel I have gotten wrong then point out the specific point.
 
I'll try and remember to add a sound effect for that :D
I reccomend the one from monty pythons spanish inquisition.
No one expects... the council!
 
Yeah and why is this a problem? Do you seriously think your vassal kings and dukes actually do most of the stuff they do as councillors? Obviously they delegate.

Yes yes, they delegate. But sadly the in the game mechanics the effectiveness of councilor actions are based on the stats of that councilor, not some abstract person to whom he delegates his duties.
 
Yes yes, they delegate. But sadly the in the game mechanics the effectiveness of councilor actions are based on the stats of that councilor, not some abstract person to whom he delegates his duties.
Well the talents of the councillor means he can can recognize talented individuals to help him in the task. I don't see the problem. Modelling it better would require way more characters which in turn would slow down the game.
 
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And I am happy for you, like I am for others who haven't gotten to the map painting stages yet.
And am happy that women players can now select equality without modding and other features I already have or had without the fancy UI.

Do you see me talk people down cause of there wishes? I am genuine happy for those new players that they approach the map painting stages with a sense of challenge.

I think I'm completely missing your point. Or you mine. Or we each others. I gathered that you don't see much worth in this DLC because you already have mods that give you a lot of the content or something similar and you disinterested in what else it offers. Now what does that have to do with new players? Or map painting? And what do new players and map painting have to with each other?
 
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People who measure their sense of self-worth in money will complain about their original purchase being disrespected.

I dont think a lot of people would care if an old and minor dlc such a LoR was made free and patched into the game if it allows the devs to build on the retinue system and make it more interesting and balanced.

Or they could do a new DLC that makes retinues better among other things and enable the feature for people who either own LoR or the new DLC.
 
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Yeah and why is this a problem? Do you seriously think your vassal kings and dukes actually do most of the stuff they do as councillors? Obviously they delegate.

I think there should be two options here, voting rights 1 tier below 2 tiers below and council only. And heredetary council membership.

The reason we won't get elecor = yes elector = no is that the ck2 team don't like non generic mechnics, they won't do specific HRE mechanics so you'll have to find a way to model the HRE's system with a more general approach. My idea has that, sure itäs not perfect but it's closer than "Kings can vote".

Also what's with the small wikipedia article I think we're all familiar with the concepts, if there's somethign you feel I have gotten wrong then point out the specific point.

IMHO my elector = yes/no is fairly generic too and it would address an issue the HRE has for most of the timeline too. Historically the king of Bohemia ended up being able to vote and during the period that the Electoral College wasn't set in stone yet, other theoretic kings (Frederick the Quarrelsome was offered a Royal Crown during negotiations, probably a tactical move, but it does show it wasn't impossible yet) might have been able to become a member too.

Your proposed mechanic should be in place for a start date not yet in the game (post 1337), before that see my previous post (#242). It might be a possible outcome after a certain date, but it shouldn't (fully) be in place yet.
 
IMHO my elector = yes/no is fairly generic too and it would address an issue the HRE has for most of the timeline too. Historically the king of Bohemia ended up being able to vote and during the period that the Electoral College wasn't set in stone yet, other theoretic kings (Frederick the Quarrelsome was offered a Royal Crown during negotiations, probably a tactical move, but it does show it wasn't impossible yet) might have been able to become a member too.

Your proposed mechanic should be in place for a start date not yet in the game (post 1337), before that see my previous post (#242). It might be a possible outcome after a certain date, but it shouldn't (fully) be in place yet.
I was more thinking that a powerful council would fsction for their positions to become heredetary and for them alone to vote for the ruler in an electoral system, with large realms (like the HRE) needing to rely more on the council to hold the realm togehter (and thus havign to give them greater concessions).

And since the golden bull happens after the last start date, how woudl you propose to implement it? By an event? I feel that is to much railroading.
 
I think I'm completely missing your point. Or you mine. Or we each others. I gathered that you don't see much worth in this DLC because you already have mods that give you a lot of the content or something similar and you disinterested in what else it offers. Now what does that have to do with new players? Or map painting? And what do new players and map painting have to with each other?

I am saying I am happy for the people that they incorpórate so much feature I play with. but if people really wanted those features they would have already modded those in or search for it.
And I am happy that Paradox finally decided to make those main stream for a lot of people.

But I am said from my personal perspectief there isn´t much new or new mechanics in this aside from a UI overlay. for me.
So that is the point I want to bring across for me.
Doesn´t mean I am not over joyed and happy for people who might benefit from these new features to them.
Especially since on steam daily tons of people who are new to this game and finally understanding the fun, so they don´t have to mod in equality between women and men.
Now it is just a toggle nobody game play is messed up, you don´t like equality among women or men in the middle ages.
Then don´t use it. you only want noble women to have same rights, cause it is your daughter. now it is also possible. but I already modded it in my games.

But still am happy for those who can´t mod that Paradox finally help those out too.
Don´t have a right to bring a personal issue with the DLC I will buy, cause am not worried about the money.
And I will try it, but I am happy if I don´t like it, I can go back and not update and disable it again. and stay on the pre DLC version.
 
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Not sure if I like the challenge or dislike the idea of my empires falling apart.

We should try it out, and back up your savegames before the patch, put auto patch on manual patch it when I launch the game.
Then we shall see atleast if the changes bring beter game value or less. atleast we should try it out, well that is what I do with every new DLC.

Then decide if WOL wasn´t released after Charlemagne I would have gone back pre Charlemagne.
Somehow I feel with conclave a similar issue, and I really hope I am wrong in this feeling.
But atleast I am going to give it a try and see what I like or dislike about this new DLC.
 
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Yeah and why is this a problem? Do you seriously think your vassal kings and dukes actually do most of the stuff they do as councillors? Obviously they delegate.
If they delegated the jobs, why does my steward get wounded while collecting taxes? Or my chancellor risk getting killed while fabricating claims? Or my spymaster imprisoned while studying tech? (Seriously, he's the spymaster, the job title outright states that he has spies working for him! Why is he spying on people personally?)
 
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I am saying I am happy for the people that they incorpórate so much feature I play with. but if people really wanted those features they would have already modded those in or search for it.
And I am happy that Paradox finally decided to make those main stream for a lot of people.

Modders can't do anything... new council mechanics as big as in this DLC are impossible by modding without strange workarounds...
 
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