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Conclave Dev Diary #1

Hi folks, I hope you have all had a nice and relaxing holiday! However, just in case you didn’t, let me take the edge off your existential angst with some soothing talk about the next expansion for Crusader Kings II; a little thing we eventually decided to call Conclave...

As you know, most of CK2’s expansions have “widened” the gameplay by unlocking new regions of the map and making various religions playable. You can now start the game in widely different cultural spheres for a great variety of different experiences; “Fifty Shades of Dark”, if you will. Meanwhile, we have gradually improved the core gameplay in patches (e.g. the technology system), but rarely in any radical way. Whenever we did try to “deepen” the core gameplay in an expansion, it often turned out to be a mistake: The Retinue mechanic of Legacy of Rome should, for example, have been a part of the base game so we could have kept building upon it.

Even so, it is high time that we addressed some of the major shortcomings of the strategy game that underpins the RPG experience. In particular, CK2 suffers from a kind of inverse difficulty progression; it is hard in the beginning and easy in the mid-to-late game. This is a great shame, because one of the main points of the whole feudal hierarchy mechanic - the need to rely on vassals - was to make it hard to maintain stable large Realms. So, my first and foremost intention with Conclave was to increase the challenge of the mid-to-late game. This was the general plan of action:

  • Reduce the “positive opinion inflation” of vassals vs their liege. (We ended up cutting many important positive opinion modifiers in half.)
  • Highlight the most powerful vassals by making them strongly desire a Council seat.
  • Give the Council more power without reducing player agency. (You are free to disregard the Council’s suggestions, but this will have ramifications on Factions. More on this later...)
  • Introduce Infamy and Coalitions against aggressively expanding Realms.
  • Improve the alliance mechanic to make it a more intentional choice. (A royal marriage is now simply a non-aggression pact. Alliance is the second step, but still requires a marriage.)
  • Improve the diplomatic AI in order to contain “blobs” (with the help of the above Alliance and Coalition systems.)
  • Bring the military AI to a whole new level.
  • Make it harder to quickly win wars through one or two major engagements. (Hence, we reduced the bloodiness of battles overall, introduced “shattered retreats” and made armies reinforce in friendly territory.)
Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Obligations.jpg


Thus, the features of Conclave and the accompanying patch are a combination of internal and external measures to make blobbing harder. This intention had ripple effects on other mechanics. For example, malcontents now tend to gang up into fewer but more powerful Factions, and we reworked the Law Screen while we were adding the new Council Power laws.

Crusader Kings II - Conclave - Council.jpg


We also took this opportunity to address an unrelated weakness in the game, namely the education of children. If you have the expansion, that whole experience should now be more interesting…

That’s all for now, stay tuned for the details!
 
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If they delegated the jobs, why does my steward get wounded while collecting taxes? Or my chancellor risk getting killed while fabricating claims? Or my spymaster imprisoned while studying tech? (Seriously, he's the spymaster, the job title outright states that he has spies working for him! Why is he spying on people personally?)

That's the problem actually... they shouldn't do the job on their own ingame.
 
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If they delegated the jobs, why does my steward get wounded while collecting taxes? Or my chancellor risk getting killed while fabricating claims? Or my spymaster imprisoned while studying tech? (Seriously, he's the spymaster, the job title outright states that he has spies working for him! Why is he spying on people personally?)
Yeah those events never made sense to me either. I mean sure if you're a count I could see you councillors doing stuff on their own but as a king or en emperor, hardly.
 
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Modders can't do anything... new council mechanics as big as in this DLC are impossible by modding without strange workarounds...

Thure I am not seeing the big Council changes am I missing something, other then you are forced to appoint people who have a lower opnion of you cause they are powerfull.
Aside from graphic changes. (UI layout I like to call it) what prevents me from putting again my dynasty in higher places and be done with it?
So they form my council aside from the normal backstab I will get from them sooner or later. (in all my games it is always the family who backstab me in the end and I laugh about the annoyance)

I will buy it and try it out. But I feel there isn´t much change. not look wise cause it is gorgeous and welldone the Council new form, but content wise.
If you understand what I mean.
 
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I understand people are attacking my criticisme cause they feell need to defend the product. but I am seriously curious enough to buy it and test it.
But since it is not available yet. maybe some beta tester or others who played it can shed some more lights. on it. what makes this DLC the crowning achievement.

Example like it or not Charlemagne, I could see the viceroy (even if it was nerfed to oblivion cause of mechanical problems) the Tribals (even if I play tested them didn´t like them. but they were a good work done those council events I could just use for other religions or cultures)

But they were not enough to hold me to play Charlemagne while I could see the work done, and could seriously defend it, just not my cup of tea. but I could seriously defend it.
Now I am seeing the work done again, but this time I lack the feeling like WOW .. but I am still happy for those changes. like women equality.
Child education and new council system and other improvements, aside from expected balance fixes in trying to solve that mid game problem people got bored.
(which I solve my grooming another dynasty to be my 2nd favorite and play them to overthrow my empire, not perfect but well was fun to beat my own tyranny.)
So I do accept there visión.

So tell me what is so good about this expansión that I can say yeah WOW. I can easily defend that 20 lousy bucks or 15 euro whatever. cause it isn´t much for the upgrades they made.
 
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Beta testers have to sign an NDA, and can't discuss gameplay of new DLCs before release.
 
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Reminds me, I have to start a new campaign in DF....
 
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Reminds me, I have to start a new campaign in DF....

Will Bureaucratic Empires like the ERE (Byzantium) be properly represented in the new system?
Or will the Basileus have to deal with all these inapplicable Feudal issues?

Can you please add a way to purge counts in the ERE?
Maybe count-level revokes with reduced malus for the ERE?
Maybe have it cost a good amount of prestige rather than opinion modifiers for the Basileus?

Same with non-viceroy Duchies?

Currently the the ER-E can only freely revoke Duchies that have been given out as Viceroys.

Meanwhile, if a Catholic vassalizes the Pope-man, they have free revocation of anyone for just 100 piety.
 
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Will Bureaucratic Empires like the ERE (Byzantium) be properly represented in the new system?
Or will the Basileus have to deal with all these inapplicable Feudal issues?

Can you please add a way to purge counts in the ERE?
Maybe count-level revokes with reduced malus for the ERE?
Maybe have it cost a good amount of prestige rather than opinion modifiers for the Basileus?

Same with non-viceroy Duchies?

Currently the the ER-E can only freely revoke Duchies that have been given out as Viceroys.

Meanwhile, if a Catholic vassalizes the Pope-man, they have free revocation of anyone for just 100 piety.

Lets remember the flip side of that coin. With the current ERE mechanics the "counts"/the Local Nobility have been more and more impotent towards their local Viceroy Theme Commander, with disappearingly small rebellion chances as a recourse because they hold Feudal titles while their liege holds a Viceroy title (i.e. it's not really his title) for several patches now. If the already strong Central Authority and it's local arm (The Theme Commanders) is to be strengthened even further then there needs to be introduced serious counter balances to outweigh the ridiculously obvious benefits of re-organizing the local Nobility as if you were a 17th Century Absolute Monarch.

Economic Disruption of Provincial life could be one idea, Manpower reduction for a prolonged period while the new title holder builds up Patron/Client relationships could be another and etc.
 
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Do I understand correctly, that later in game, you will have simply too many powerful vassals, to fit them in your council? Or is it a fixed number of most powerful vassals in the realm?

Does the council have more to say, than simply approve/disapprove liege's actions?
 
Lets remember the flip side of that coin. With the current ERE mechanics the "counts"/the Local Nobility have been more and more impotent towards their local Viceroy Theme Commander, with disappearingly small rebellion chances as a recourse because they hold Feudal titles while their liege holds a Viceroy title (i.e. it's not really his title) for several patches now. If the already strong Central Authority and it's local arm (The Theme Commanders) is to be strengthened even further then there needs to be introduced serious counter balances to outweigh the ridiculously obvious benefits of re-organizing the local Nobility as if you were a 17th Century Absolute Monarch.

Economic Disruption of Provincial life could be one idea, Manpower reduction for a prolonged period while the new title holder builds up Patron/Client relationships could be another and etc.
Also there should be no relationship bonus for handing out viceroyalities.
 
Lets remember the flip side of that coin. With the current ERE mechanics the "counts"/the Local Nobility have been more and more impotent towards their local Viceroy Theme Commander, with disappearingly small rebellion chances as a recourse because they hold Feudal titles while their liege holds a Viceroy title (i.e. it's not really his title) for several patches now. If the already strong Central Authority and it's local arm (The Theme Commanders) is to be strengthened even further then there needs to be introduced serious counter balances to outweigh the ridiculously obvious benefits of re-organizing the local Nobility as if you were a 17th Century Absolute Monarch.

Economic Disruption of Provincial life could be one idea, Manpower reduction for a prolonged period while the new title holder builds up Patron/Client relationships could be another and etc.

I agree, actually. They could make vassals very prone to joining factions to lower taxes.

Ideally, I want to see the ERE using a manpower mechanic and have to raise standing armies, with very few levies.

If they can't do that, then much larger retinue limits for the ERE, early; but at the cost of levies.


Also there should be no relationship bonus for handing out viceroyalities.

That wouldn't make sense. Just reduce the current bonus.
 
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I still wonder about that Content Pack...
It seems that South Indians are getting their pack. Hopefully, this content pack will give some love to Baltic and Finno-Ugric people.
 
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What is this ERE-thing? In the time the (base)game ist settled (1066-1453) ERE is pretty much a normal feudal realm of its time. Some "relics" of the former times (purple born, etc.) are in my opinion enough to spezialize the ERE. If you make new "playable" Mechanics i would outsource these in LoR in trying to regain old roman status from 1066 feudal start. In earlier bookmarks (Old Gods, Charlemagne) ERE can be in a different "shape". But i think - and it depends how the mechanics in detail are - the administrative laws (feudal, late, administrative) can work pretty well (https://www.paradoxplaza.com/crusader-kings-2-conclave).

Now to something completely diffrent. I ask myself how can "personal powermanagement" be represented in a feudal meaning? Most the time mighty dukes (or counts) seat in your council thus they have "powerhouses" of their own. But what if you choose skilled landless guys? Shouldn't they have their own posibility to become a factor of power? I think yes. Fortunately the game has a nearly unused element of "waste data": barony-tier holdings. So these could serve well as a kind of allodium. This can strengthen small feudal rulers (counts, barons) and weaken the "big lieges". Now the powercalulation is like this: all your major vassals + all your counties + all baron tier sub vassals (baron, mayor, bishop). So with every point of possible demesne size you get (mostly) three free easy controllable vassals and their taxes and levies. I would prefere if the "default situation" ist that you gain (i.e. via claim, or by the permission to allow every liege/top liege to build new castles in every county reigned by them) only a castle (barony), city or temple while the local count/duke still is the lord of the rest of its county. So the "powercalculation" is then "only": your (major) vassals + baronies.

The other thing is the economical power of feudal lords is not money in the first but their bondmen or their political influence. So let all the noble lords build things in their "allodium" (castles) with either prestige (or a different new currency) or money, all theocracies with piety or money. So a councilman without land and income can over time build their own demesne by collecting prestige/piety. Over time some former weak nobles can become a major factor in the "game of thrones" in having some castles spread over the realm of their liege (in the same way merchant "lords" own only little cities in foreign counties).

To make things even more complicated allow to promote titles to a different tier. For exemple you could either create the duchy of Köln and hand it out to the local bishop or promote him directly to archbishop of Köln. The same should work for non existing de jure duchies like Trier and Mainz and makes it possible to create the "proper" HRE-electors and avoid forcing the player to make Mainz the non existing "Archbishopric of Franconia" or Trier the "Archbishopric of Lotharingia". With this "mechanic" you can support "loyal vassals" and "courtsmen" from landless guys to even king-tier rulers. From i.e. the small castlelord of Hohenstaufen to the Kaiser of the HRE.

With all these "historical feudal chaos" you generate with this mechanics you can use played-time in reorganizing your realm rather than continuously expand and expand and expand.

Only some ideas. Hope my english isn't that poor as it seems to me.

Greetings Karlmann
 
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However, just in case you didn’t, let me take the edge off your existential angst with some soothing talk about the next expansion for Crusader Kings II; a little thing we eventually decided to call Conclave...

When I see title this DLC I have hope for playing as Pope. :/ I think better name will be Council not Conclave. Maybe in next diarys You will surprise me
 
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When I see title this DLC I have hope for playing as Pope. :/ I think better name will be Council not Conclave. Maybe in next diarys You will surprise me

Council sounds boring... And... some meanings on Conclave:

1. a private or secret meeting.
2. an assembly or gathering, esp. one that has special authority or influence: a conclave of political leaders.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conclave
 
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I've finally figured it out. No matter what Paradox does, people will always complain. Including me.
 
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