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Dev Diary #101 - Saints and Ancestors

Hello there! Another week, another Dev Diary!


This week we are going to take a look at the Saints, their potential Pagan counterparts, and how they will work in Holy Fury.


Saints & Ancestors 01.png



After the death of a pious Christian character, there is a chance for the Pope/Patriarch/local bishop to decide to beatify them. This is how they’re shown to be truly pious Christians. There will be an announcement sent out to the dynasty as well as the ones in the realm of the character. A beatified character gets a special trait, and a chance to later on be canonized.


Saints & Ancestors 02.png


Saints & Ancestors 03.png


If they do indeed go on to become Saints, another announcement message will be sent out to all Christians of the same faith, as well as their dynasty members. The character in question will be given a special nickname, a miracle will be associated with him/her (this is mostly for flavour) and they will be given a special bloodline. Note, any Christian with a religious head can become canonized, not only Catholics.


Saints & Ancestors 04.png



The Saint will have their burial site made public, usually in their capital or another nearby province in the form of a Province Modifier. This gives a permanent benefit for whoever holds the Burial Site, as well as some new flavor events that might happen. Any church holdings in the province will be able to create a small shrine to the local Saint. As well, if any raiders were to drop by the province, they might loot and ruin the burial site for some extra gold and prestige.


Saints & Ancestors 05.png


Saints & Ancestors 06.png


A new icon and menu have been added to the religion screen for Christians, where they can check all the Saints that have been created for their faith throughout the game. We figured it would be a handy way of keeping track of everything.


Saints & Ancestors 07.png
Saints & Ancestors 08.png



For those enjoying pilgrimages and traveling, we have added a new option and event chain to travel to a Saint’s burial site. It will find 4 relevant burial sites of Saints created throughout the game. If there isn’t 4 existing in the game yet, there will be up to 3 placeholders filling those spots. Hopefully it will be an interesting change of pace from the regular pilgrimages.


Saints & Ancestors 09.png
Saints & Ancestors 10.png


Saints & Ancestors 12.png


If the Catholics are led by a particularly terrible Pope, you might even see the cases of “Impious Saints” as we call them. In the worst case scenarios, this can end up with all of Catholicism embroiled in a massive war, fighting for the piety of the Holy See. The impious Saint in question will get a Bloodline as well, but it doesn’t quite bring as many benefits as most other bloodlines do.


Saints & Ancestors 13.png
Saints & Ancestors 14.png


For those of you who don’t care particularly much about Catholics, or Christians in general, we have added a new Reformation doctrine where one can take on the benefits of Saints into your pagan faith. Instead of caring about such silly things as “Piety”, “Humbleness” or other supposed positive traits, the Venerated Ancestors will be based on things your religion cares about. So if you reform your religion to be a warlike one, one is more likely to become a Venerated Ancestor if you do things that are warlike.


Saints & Ancestors 15.png



For those of you preferring to lead religions yourself, you will occasionally be given the choice of people the religion will venerate as a worthy ancestor. The dynasty of the character in question will, of course, be very appreciative of their family member being venerated as an Ancestor.

Saints & Ancestors 16.png



For the characters receiving that honor, there is a whole slew of new special bloodlines attached to them, as well some special nicknames.


Hopefully you enjoyed this little peek into the upcoming feature for CK2, and we are excited to hear your thoughts on it. Until next time!
 
These screenshots really show that there is one portrait pack that needs to be overhauled even more badly than western/muslim portraits : religious clothes...
I agree. Especially Orthodox and Mya/Monophisite I feel. But we are getting plenty of content already, so no pressure on anyone.
 
Remember that saints were declared centuries later sometimes and not when they died.

And I didn't say that it didn't happen at all earlier, but that there was a noticeable uptick in the high middle ages. Which shouldn't be surprising given the changing role of religion in society at that time.

Then there is the difference between some local bishop doing it (which was common early on) and the Pope (who took it over exclusively later on). Things became more official as time went on.
That list also seems to include a lot of people who were venerated by the local population without necessarily being officially a saint. It's complicated and I was referring more to people who were made saint by a Pope. But this is another case of a mechanic that has to be simplified and unchanging over the centuries, when in reality it developed over time
 
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(I might be wrong) I think I read somewhere that before established canonizing by Pope, all that was done by the people without any "process".
I believe that's true. I can forgive the devs though for only wanting to add one unified canonisation mechanic, and I don't think whether the event is handled for the pope's AI or for a local bishop's AI makes much of a difference.
 
I've just imagined reformed pagan religion with Divine Marriage and Ancestor Veneration with some lewd characters with sisters/nieces/daughters as vives/concubines as pagan "saints"... :rolleyes:

Actually... the Zoroastrians saw it as holy thing to marry your family. It was a very pious thing.
 
Any events that happen if an antipope makes someone a saint and then is destroyed? Does the Pope in Rome just accept the people they made saints?

The pope during this era had nothing to say about saints. The regulation that he is the only one who make saints was just created during the 13th/14th century. Ingame it's represented by bishops making saints
 
The pope during this era had nothing to say about saints
At that time it was bishops and popes who created saints. Then later on the pope took it over exclusively. There was some conflict about that, but it wasn't about the pope intruding into something that didn't concern him before.

In the first HF Twitch stream I think there is even an event about exactly this where the pope gets mad that saints are declared all over the place and that now he takes over the authority over that. Just centuries before he did it in reality.

Ah here it is (@42:30)
 
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Actually... the Zoroastrians saw it as holy thing to marry your family. It was a very pious thing.

Did they?

Do you have a source on that?

Yea that's how it is treated in game. But having looked for and failed to find a source that tells me they actually thought it was divine.

I really have started to wonder if it wasn't so much they considered it to be divine, or even if it has any religious component at all and it's not just a classic case of old world marrying within the family to keep the lands, money, power etc in the family.
 
Remember that saints were declared centuries later sometimes and not when they died.

Some were, some weren't. Based on a quick look, many of the pre-1000 saints were indeed canonised in the 11th or 12th century (including Charlemagne, by an antipope... This question seems to be the synthesis of the entire thread!). Others were canonised much earlier. I have no idea about the ratio between those two groups, and I'm pretty sure many of the early local saints are long forgotten now, so I doubt anyone can work that out properly.

And I didn't say that it didn't happen at all earlier, but that there was a noticeable uptick in the high middle ages. Which shouldn't be surprising given the changing role of religion in society at that time.
Then there is the difference between some local bishop doing it (which was common early on) and the Pope (who took it over exclusively later on). Things became more official as time went on

True. I'm not sure having both mechanics in the game would make much of a difference though, so implementing only one probably makes sense resource-wise.

Actually, thinking about this, if you wanted to be perfectly historically accurate, you'd probably need "top-down" and "bottom-up" saints as two different mechanics, with the importance of each fluctuating over time.

Of course, then I remember that we're talking about one non-headline feature of a single DLC here. Perfect accuracy would be nice, but that would need an entire DLC of its own...

I trust that the devs have tested the balance, and that even if things get out of hand some future patch will tone things down a bit.
 
Did they?

Do you have a source on that?

Yea that's how it is treated in game. But having looked for and failed to find a source that tells me they actually thought it was divine.

I really have started to wonder if it wasn't so much they considered it to be divine, or even if it has any religious component at all and it's not just a classic case of old world marrying within the family to keep the lands, money, power etc in the family.

They did indeed advocate it, it seems: "Zoroastrian religious tracts actively encourage nuclear family incest and extol its meritorious nature and supernatural benefits." (from article https://www.researchgate.net/public..._the_sociobiological_view_of_incest_avoidance)
 
Did they?

Do you have a source on that?

Yea that's how it is treated in game. But having looked for and failed to find a source that tells me they actually thought it was divine.

I really have started to wonder if it wasn't so much they considered it to be divine, or even if it has any religious component at all and it's not just a classic case of old world marrying within the family to keep the lands, money, power etc in the family.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/marriage-next-of-kin

There it is. "one of the most pious actions possible."
 
It's event based, not decision based. Meaning you cannot force him to start canonizing people.

This might answer my question too but just wanted to be sure. I assume that if you’re the religious head of your pagan religion, you only decided through events and not decisions as well? So you can’t just pick people to venerate on your own will. Otherwise a lot of my family members would get venerated probably lol.

On a note about the features itself, love it all! The list of saints is fantastic, I love that the Pagans are getting in on it too! It’s a feature works so well with the new bloodlines feature and I feel like my character finally can get a reward for being good. Most of the time I go for developing pride or greed because they can be beneficial or they’re just a result of actions I find better than other ones. Now I feel I have a reason to be a pious person other than “well let’s just RP being one”. Very excited to play!
 
Making characters into saints is a great idea.

SUGGESTION FOR SAINTHOOD APPOINTMENTS: I would also suggest that you allow descendants of players to tip the scales and influence the decision *after* their pious relatives are dead, much in the way that you can contribute to a campaign fund for your best Cardinal candidate. There could be a wait list of potential saints that are nominated by families, and every few years the Pope may decide to canonize one or more of them. (Maybe this could happen once per pope after he has been in power for a few years?) Allow us to use money, land, Crusade participation, and other forms of value to effectively bribe dead relatives into sainthood. Piety shouldn't be the only currency that gets someone canonized - because historically money has talked.
 
Hello there! Another week, another Dev Diary!


This week we are going to take a look at the Saints, their potential Pagan counterparts, and how they will work in Holy Fury.


View attachment 405685


After the death of a pious Christian character, there is a chance for the Pope/Patriarch/local bishop to decide to beatify them. This is how they’re shown to be truly pious Christians. There will be an announcement sent out to the dynasty as well as the ones in the realm of the character. A beatified character gets a special trait, and a chance to later on be canonized.


View attachment 405686

View attachment 405687

If they do indeed go on to become Saints, another announcement message will be sent out to all Christians of the same faith, as well as their dynasty members. The character in question will be given a special nickname, a miracle will be associated with him/her (this is mostly for flavour) and they will be given a special bloodline. Note, any Christian with a religious head can become canonized, not only Catholics.


View attachment 405688


The Saint will have their burial site made public, usually in their capital or another nearby province in the form of a Province Modifier. This gives a permanent benefit for whoever holds the Burial Site, as well as some new flavor events that might happen. Any church holdings in the province will be able to create a small shrine to the local Saint. As well, if any raiders were to drop by the province, they might loot and ruin the burial site for some extra gold and prestige.


View attachment 405689

View attachment 405690

A new icon and menu have been added to the religion screen for Christians, where they can check all the Saints that have been created for their faith throughout the game. We figured it would be a handy way of keeping track of everything.


View attachment 405691 View attachment 405692


For those enjoying pilgrimages and traveling, we have added a new option and event chain to travel to a Saint’s burial site. It will find 4 relevant burial sites of Saints created throughout the game. If there isn’t 4 existing in the game yet, there will be up to 3 placeholders filling those spots. Hopefully it will be an interesting change of pace from the regular pilgrimages.


View attachment 405693 View attachment 405694

View attachment 405699

If the Catholics are led by a particularly terrible Pope, you might even see the cases of “Impious Saints” as we call them. In the worst case scenarios, this can end up with all of Catholicism embroiled in a massive war, fighting for the piety of the Holy See. The impious Saint in question will get a Bloodline as well, but it doesn’t quite bring as many benefits as most other bloodlines do.


View attachment 405700 View attachment 405701

For those of you who don’t care particularly much about Catholics, or Christians in general, we have added a new Reformation doctrine where one can take on the benefits of Saints into your pagan faith. Instead of caring about such silly things as “Piety”, “Humbleness” or other supposed positive traits, the Venerated Ancestors will be based on things your religion cares about. So if you reform your religion to be a warlike one, one is more likely to become a Venerated Ancestor if you do things that are warlike.


View attachment 405702


For those of you preferring to lead religions yourself, you will occasionally be given the choice of people the religion will venerate as a worthy ancestor. The dynasty of the character in question will, of course, be very appreciative of their family member being venerated as an Ancestor.

View attachment 405703


For the characters receiving that honor, there is a whole slew of new special bloodlines attached to them, as well some special nicknames.


Hopefully you enjoyed this little peek into the upcoming feature for CK2, and we are excited to hear your thoughts on it. Until next time!
I can finally get my "Saint Joffrey the butcher" impious blood in HIP