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Dev Diary #101 - Saints and Ancestors

Hello there! Another week, another Dev Diary!


This week we are going to take a look at the Saints, their potential Pagan counterparts, and how they will work in Holy Fury.


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After the death of a pious Christian character, there is a chance for the Pope/Patriarch/local bishop to decide to beatify them. This is how they’re shown to be truly pious Christians. There will be an announcement sent out to the dynasty as well as the ones in the realm of the character. A beatified character gets a special trait, and a chance to later on be canonized.


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If they do indeed go on to become Saints, another announcement message will be sent out to all Christians of the same faith, as well as their dynasty members. The character in question will be given a special nickname, a miracle will be associated with him/her (this is mostly for flavour) and they will be given a special bloodline. Note, any Christian with a religious head can become canonized, not only Catholics.


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The Saint will have their burial site made public, usually in their capital or another nearby province in the form of a Province Modifier. This gives a permanent benefit for whoever holds the Burial Site, as well as some new flavor events that might happen. Any church holdings in the province will be able to create a small shrine to the local Saint. As well, if any raiders were to drop by the province, they might loot and ruin the burial site for some extra gold and prestige.


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A new icon and menu have been added to the religion screen for Christians, where they can check all the Saints that have been created for their faith throughout the game. We figured it would be a handy way of keeping track of everything.


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For those enjoying pilgrimages and traveling, we have added a new option and event chain to travel to a Saint’s burial site. It will find 4 relevant burial sites of Saints created throughout the game. If there isn’t 4 existing in the game yet, there will be up to 3 placeholders filling those spots. Hopefully it will be an interesting change of pace from the regular pilgrimages.


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If the Catholics are led by a particularly terrible Pope, you might even see the cases of “Impious Saints” as we call them. In the worst case scenarios, this can end up with all of Catholicism embroiled in a massive war, fighting for the piety of the Holy See. The impious Saint in question will get a Bloodline as well, but it doesn’t quite bring as many benefits as most other bloodlines do.


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For those of you who don’t care particularly much about Catholics, or Christians in general, we have added a new Reformation doctrine where one can take on the benefits of Saints into your pagan faith. Instead of caring about such silly things as “Piety”, “Humbleness” or other supposed positive traits, the Venerated Ancestors will be based on things your religion cares about. So if you reform your religion to be a warlike one, one is more likely to become a Venerated Ancestor if you do things that are warlike.


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For those of you preferring to lead religions yourself, you will occasionally be given the choice of people the religion will venerate as a worthy ancestor. The dynasty of the character in question will, of course, be very appreciative of their family member being venerated as an Ancestor.

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For the characters receiving that honor, there is a whole slew of new special bloodlines attached to them, as well some special nicknames.


Hopefully you enjoyed this little peek into the upcoming feature for CK2, and we are excited to hear your thoughts on it. Until next time!
 
You're right, I was too broad there. But examples such as "the damned" are ellipses. So, for example, "The meek shall inherit the earth"="The meek (humans) shall inherit the earth". In each case, the noun phrase has to be plural and definite. ("I love the rich" works, "I love some rich", "I love a rich" don't.)

I'll amend my statement. It doesn't work in the singular, which was my original point way back

"A blessed" makes about as much sense as "a damned" or "a slain". Have you ever heard in English someone refer to "My mother, a murdered", "My father, a slain", "The dog, a damned"?

I'll stretch it so far as to allow, perhaps, "My mother, the murdered" (which would really be odd, not archaic), but never with an indefinite article.

So, no, Benedicta cannot be a Blessed and "A blessed has passed" is not English.
Pst... You've transformed them into nouns ;)

"The Blessed" might have the implication of "The Blessed [Person]" or "The Blessed [Farts]" or "The Blessed [Baby Batter]", but through use transforms it into The Blessed, The Blessed Noun.

Descriptive linguistics tends to run faster than prescriptive linguistics.
 
I cain't help but notice the Muslims aren't getting anything from all this. Ye I know that at Christmas you will give us proper portraits that no longer look like bodies found left out in the sun, but what mechanic would actually work for them? Will there be different sects within the Shia where you can claim to be the twelf Imam? Will Sunnis get some boost to balance it out?
 
Pst... You've transformed them into nouns ;)

"The Blessed" might have the implication of "The Blessed [Person]" or "The Blessed [Farts]" or "The Blessed [Baby Batter]", but through use transforms it into The Blessed, The Blessed Noun.

Descriptive linguistics tends to run faster than prescriptive linguistics.

Yes, of course. You're right! How could I be so wrong?

According to you, "I love some rich" and "I love a rich" are perfect English.

No, that's not English.

You're assuming there's an adjectival version of the verb > gerund thing. There isn't, in English. There's no magical transformation of adjectives into nouns. The plural, definite version works due to ellipsis, which doesn't work in the singular in English. (Refer back to "I love a rich"). Sorry, rules do matter.

As for descriptive linguistics being applicable here, they're not, since Paradox isn't an English company. And even if they were, and they started writing stuff like "King deadified, sorrow muchness everyone", I'd still weigh in.


Why are you guys obsessed with grammar? :eek:

Get a room already:D

This is the Paradox forum, what do you expect? :)
 
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I cain't help but notice the Muslims aren't getting anything from all this. Ye I know that at Christmas you will give us proper portraits that no longer look like bodies found left out in the sun, but what mechanic would actually work for them? Will there be different sects within the Shia where you can claim to be the twelf Imam? Will Sunnis get some boost to balance it out?
I think muslims need a religious society to join.
I mean I really enjoy my Hurufi Assassin society, but it would be nice to roleplay a muslim who lives a pious life and have the fluff for it too.
I mostly play suomenusko, christians and dharmics because you can get that feeling of a spiritual dimension, when you play with them, that other religions just can't provide for the same degree.
I wish we could have an expansion that focuses on muslim /zoroastrian/manichean religious orders and fluff.

But to be fair, I have an endless list of things that I would like to see :D
 
You've never known anyone to desire riches? :eek:

Now you're going off on a tangent. "She is a Blessed", "He is a rich", "thenavmag knows what s/he is talking about" are all equally wrong.

But don't let me keep you all from butchering the English language. It's nothing new.

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Disagree all you like, navmag. Your English master is turning over in his grave.
 
Muslim need a society what covers aspect of sects coming later into prominence but not yet momentous at this time. Rn it is just a game of keeping your decadence low and that's about it. Not super exciting.
 
Honestly, the Islamic faith requires a rework in general, not just some new stuff. I honestly have no idea where paradox would even start with a project that large in scope though, maybe make it so that muslims have more options with succession laws?
 
This is getting a little personal guys, stop with the snark before a mod decides to intervene.

On topic, we've still yet to hear about the piety rework mentioned in the Crusades DD. I am really interested in whether or not it will be reworked to be more than Holy Order/Pope Mana.
 
I'd imagine one could be called such without having to be canonized as such. Popularly beloved, historically known for his piety, etc.

In Portugal, there is a certain princess Joana, although a few decades after the timeframe of CK II, which was widely known as "Princess Joan 'the Saint' " even though she was never canonized.

She refused marriage proposals by both Richard III of England and Charles VIII of France and became a nun but was forced to return to court and act as the regent of the kingdom during the years her father and brother were busy fighting, getting tortured and imprisoned in Africa and she did an amazing job at reforming the local economy and legislation during that period (so much so that quite a few tried unsuccessfully to convince her to usurp the throne). Joana really reaaaally wanted to be a nun again but she did such a good job as a regent that they never allowed her to do so, but as payment for her regency going so well, they allowed her to remain unmarried. She remained at court as a royal counsellor for her entire life, and after her death, no one cannonized her, but she became a saint of devotion amongst the Portuguese royal family and, in particular, the peasantry (somehow, Joana managed to reform taxing practices in such a way that she raised revenue while still reducing the taxes paid by the peasants and reformed the laws, outlawing some practices -don't ask me how she did that, but dang, that sounds like a miracle on itself)
 
(somehow, Joana managed to reform taxing practices in such a way that she raised revenue while still reducing the taxes paid by the peasants and reformed the laws, outlawing some practices -don't ask me how she did that, but dang, that sounds like a miracle on itself)
In modern economies the "lower taxes, get more revenue" is encompassed in the Laffer Curve. I doubt that is applicable to 15th century Protugal, so I am going to second her tax reform as a miracle.
 
In modern economies the "lower taxes, get more revenue" is encompassed in the Laffer Curve. I doubt that is applicable to 15th century Protugal, so I am going to second her tax reform as a miracle.
As it was phrased as...

(somehow, Joana managed to reform taxing practices in such a way that she raised revenue while still reducing the taxes paid by the peasants and reformed the laws, outlawing some practices -don't ask me how she did that, but dang, that sounds like a miracle on itself)
...we know ttwo key things: she raised revenue, she lowered taxes paid by the peasants.

In modern economies, taxing the lower classes more while lowering taxes for the upper crust is regressive, backwards, economically suicidal, and beloved by our corporate aristocracy. Lowering taxes on the peasants while growing revenue sounds possible, if she went with something akin to a progressive tax: ease off on the peasants, cause they're dirt poor anyway, and bring in money from those with money.

Ofc, this is the first I'm hearing of Joana the Saint, so it's only speculation based on the information given. But passing a progressive tax would indeed be a miracle, even for us.
 
Yes, of course. You're right! How could I be so wrong?

According to you, "I love some rich" and "I love a rich" are perfect English.

No, that's not English.

You're assuming there's an adjectival version of the verb > gerund thing. There isn't, in English. There's no magical transformation of adjectives into nouns. The plural, definite version works due to ellipsis, which doesn't work in the singular in English. (Refer back to "I love a rich"). Sorry, rules do matter.

yes, but it's a title... like a pope, you can say a blessed. it's a specific usage by the Christian faith to denote someone confirmed in heaven.

it isn't being used literally as an adjective, but is an adjective that has been turned into a noun for use of describing a person in heaven with god. it isn't an adjective describing an implied noun in this instance, it's a singular title for someone with a specific quality. like Hungarian, you can have a hungarian, and a hungarian dude. you can have a blessed, and a blessed dude.

note that when used this way insts never pronounced as bless'd, but always bless-ed, as well.

it's only in this specific use that it's being used this way and still proper grammar, any other usage isn't proper.

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While I like the idea of a sainthood system, giving them a bloodline seems like a bit much. I feel like this will make way too many bloodlines and then they'll became way less interesting. Mathematically, given enough time our latest common ancestor will get closer and closer, so eventually you'll get dynasties that have like 12 bloodlines if there is no way to prevent it.
 
While I like the idea of a sainthood system, giving them a bloodline seems like a bit much. I feel like this will make way too many bloodlines and then they'll became way less interesting. Mathematically, given enough time our latest common ancestor will get closer and closer, so eventually you'll get dynasties that have like 12 bloodlines if there is no way to prevent it.

theres a coment that only player saints get the bloodline