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Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
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Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
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As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
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As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
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Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
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Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
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Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
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Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
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Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
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Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
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Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
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One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
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Just want to come in say I'm loving this change so far. I am very much a fan of a much more controllable expansion mechanic as well as the introduction of a seperate form of wartime objective. The idea of making each system into its own king-of-the-hill point is already a huge blow to doomstacks. Granted that's still reliant on how warscore gets reworked, but I imagine the overall direction of take system -> get progress to victory will remain the same.

This also easily confirms the hyperspace FTL-start rework incoming as well, since there's no current way to enforce 'adjacency' other than hyperspace.
 
What 4x game uses this system for territory expansion?

Ignoring my question with a question isn't all that helpful.

If you want to just be ambiguous in your replies and not list what games you are comparing Stellaris to while still claiming that it's system is bad, you clearly don't want to have any sort of constructive back and forth.
 
by hundreds do you mean you'll build 20% or higher of all outposts in a 1000 star map and not say... take them through conquest? if you have 20 other empires around you'll build probably a 100 at best for your most expansive options and then take the rest forcefully.

With the current method of building outposts (manually instructing construction ships where to build) that sounds tedious to me. I like the idea of having to claim each system, I just don't think the current construction interface is good enough to support it.
 
Does this imply that if all of your starbases are destroyed, you will have no capacity to create any military ships of any kind? Because that seems like an incredibly easy way for someone to complete destroy a large empire in one go, as by killing off all their starbases, they will no longer have any means of building up their fleets. Would it be better for planets, maybe even just the capital planet, to be able to build the lowest level of military ships so that this does not equal a death sentence?
From what it sounds like wiping all of an opponent's starbases will not be a quick thing. Or rather, if you could do that quickly you're grossly superior anyway. Way I read it each starbase should be able to at least hold their own against a full fleet assault. Long enough for at least the defending empire to bring in their own fleet to benefit from the fortified engagement. Of course if you made all of your starbases into 6 shipyards and that happens you're really just asking for that to happen.
 
This has me scared, given previous comments in streams, I feel like my wormhole jumping days are coming to an end.
Excluding black hole systems? Because otherwise they'll be immensely powerful with an almost completely guaranteed research production.

Honestly I think Blake Holes should have something special, even if that means making them rarer(I also suspect that if FTL is getting that rework for everybody starting with Hyperlanes and the other types being unlocked later, or as special things, that Wormholes would be tied to Blake Holes, either by requiring to be built on them, or using strategic resources collected from them)

To some degree it actually mitigates the mining/research station clicking because you typically take things one system at a time instead of suddenly claiming five new systems that need to be built up. We're discussing ways to make construction of stations easier though, including having mining/research stations be disabled rather than destroyed, better construction of them from the galaxy map, and possibly automation via Starbases.

maybe production from mining/research stations stops when a system is contested(enemy fleets present, planets and starports control split up between war participants), and then switching once fully controlled(maybe with reduced income due to being an occupation, though some technologies or things like the Ethos or species of local POPs might effect that; after all if you're reconquering a system you originally colonized and the people living there still believe in the way of life they had under your rule, they wouldn't exactly be that upset about you showing up)

In that case, what about Federation-Starbases/Outposts?
They would change ownership to the president along with the federation-fleet.
Might lead to balance problems though (still like the idea)

this is a good idea, Federation owned starports would also be where the Federation Fleet derives it's limits and abilities from. though I see the Federation Capital being it's own special megastructure.

though determining where these system are taken from, when and how more are added, and so on would be a complicated system.

but Federations are in despite need of an overhaul anyway, though that should wait until after all this madness with new borders, FTL, and whatever else is coming gets settled down

Actually, if you're having trouble with upkeep, will there be a way to mothball starbases without having to fully downgrade them, given the construction cost/time? Then you can reactivate them during wartime if you need to churn out ships, but it'll take several months before they come back to full operation or something like that.

I have to admit, this feels a bit disappointing. As you always say, there is a balance to be found between gameplay/fun and realism, but ultimately, we play Stellaris not just because it's a game of numbers, but because it's a sci-fi game whose stories and visuals are tickling our imagination. Starbases always surviving combat is a pretty big breach of immersion; it was already bad enough that habitats are invulnerable, but at least those were not directly participating in battles.

If starbases end up being a stationary equivalent of fleets, I don't think it is too much to ask of players to rebuild them. It is no more tedious than having to rebuild all the ships the enemy lost in taking that system, after all.

I hope this does not come off as overly critical. All in all I am rather impressed by this projected change; the above-quoted bits are merely the ones that gave me pause and reason to raise a brow when reading.

What's the reasoning behind the limitation that Starbases must be built in orbit of the systems star?

If there's no hard game mechanics reason, would you consider just allowing them to be built in orbit of any planet (colonized or otherwise)?

That (heavily fortified primary worlds with extensive orbital facilities/shipyards/defences) would seem a lot more in keeping with traditional sci-fi tropes than a giant station on top of a star :)
Starbases

I'd been excited by the teasers, and am looking forward to more profound levels, modules, and buildings. Less so is how these relate to border expansion (per my previous critiques) and how they must be built explicitly around the star:
  • In a realistic sense: right by the star seems like one of the worst places to build a starbase. Though I'd be receptive if devs had a good explanation of "we thought of that, but here's why we thought it better to sacrifice realism for gameplay".

  • Assuming that the FTL Inhibitor stays in-game: this eliminates any tactical placement of the facility. Enemy fleets would always be forced onto the star, which may not always be ideal.
I'm loving the sound of this, but if I might make a suggestion... is it possible that these wouldn't HAVE to be around a star? It makes more thematic sense that installations (particularly early in an empire's growth) would be based around a planet. They could still be limited to 1 per system. The first one would almost certainly be orbiting the home planet, for example. If there's a compelling gameplay reason to not have these orbiting inhabited/habitable worlds then perhaps it could be limited to inhabitable worlds (barren, molten, etc). It would add an extra small tactical choice as well - building on a certain edge of a system so that it is better able to intercept visitors from a particular direction (assuming FTL still works that way!)

well there's what Nyrael here said:
1. It can use the star as fuel. Much easier to have a powerful Starbase this way
2. Putting a starbase over a planet, together with dozens of its defense platforms and fleets that would be anchored there would make it impossible to click on the planet... and maybe even hard to see

the placement over a Star is likely a game balance thing, so you don't camp on FTL entry/exit points

and as for realism reasons, just watch this(and then go watch everything else this guy has made, he's amazing):


As amazing as that would be, i don't think any player would be happy about being on the receiving end of getting Yang'd.

I know you must be talking about a different Yang, but I can't help but picture this coming at me from out of nowhere in the void of space to punch my space stations out of existence:



it is both hilarious and horrifying


Pirates and space monsters, perhaps? Make them an exception to the rule that you cannot destroy outposts, have some way to spawn new monsters/pirates you have to patrol your borders, and let (the pirates) specifically take over outposts if you don't defend them properly, so you're punished if you overreach carelessly.

I think that hostile space creatures or pirates would just kill you're construction ship before it can start building, let alone finish the station, and pirates might have their own siting there needing to be captured.
 
Mostly good stuff here. A swarm of small defense platforms around the starbase should scale up well and be much easier to manage than building them via construction ships. And even if attacker loses, he can still do some damage and blow up some defense platforms. That would not be possible with a single huge fortress that would either be fully destroyed or survive the attack. Starbase planning promises to be quite interesting.

I'm neutral about border and control changes. We shall see how it will work out.

Critical change will be whatever they do with fleets and doomstacks. I can't see what they are planning to do there. It can fail horribly or be very good.
 
According to you the entire map has already been filled by the time they awaken, so they don't count :eek:

Most games don't require you claim each individual tile with multiple clicks, then put down structures to claim resources, and most games don't have maps the size of Stellaris ones.

I did not. i said it's improbable that you'll be capturing 100s yourself, I put no timeframe on this. if you can churn out 10 per year or 1 every 10 years, the AI will still more or less match it to some degree, i doubt you'll more than quadruple their output.

you aren't claiming each tile, as each system holds a lot of different resources, and multiple planets sometimes.
 
Please please please reduce the micro of ship building. Just give me a central screen to order ships from, and any starports capable of building those ships will begin construction to fill the order. Rather then having to go through each individual starport and que up it's build order.
 
It's not the concept of claiming systems individually I object to, it's building outposts in every system with the current three clicks a time UI.

I'd prefer it if they just took the sector management interface and used that to let you buy border systems in exchange for influence but Martin says they need the outposts there for other reasons, so they need to do something to speed up the process of building outposts.
The other reason is likely the warfare aspect.
Regardless, UI should be improved if/when possible.

@Wiz , if you are considering adding micro-reducing mechanics, may I suggest something along the lines of the EU4 macro-builder?
For example:
1. Click on quick-build icon.
2. Pick station type to build [outpost, mine, research, all].
3. Galaxy view displays "map-mode" according to station type [displays resource + cost on system].
4. Pick system to build in -- there would be a "total" tally calculating costs + expected production.
5. Confirm choices.
6. Repeat for any other station type.
 
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I like most of this, but starbases are really going to tank the value of ringworlds & multi-planet systems. Maybe the production speed or efficiency of starbases can additionally be modified by the resource output or population of the system they're in, a sort of 'available labor & logistics' bonus?
 
I thing should remove constraction ships and build minings stations in starbase interface.
May be also move science and colony ship from planet to starbase.

Why need a tab in interface for only three types of ships.
 
I like most of this, but starbases are really going to tank the value of ringworlds & multi-planet systems. Maybe the production speed or efficiency of starbases can additionally be modified by the resource output or population of the system they're in, a sort of 'available labor & logistics' bonus?

How do you figure? Wouldn't you want to build some starbases in those systems, to protect them from being shut off during the war?
 
Does this imply that if all of your starbases are destroyed, you will have no capacity to create any military ships of any kind? Because that seems like an incredibly easy way for someone to complete destroy a large empire in one go, as by killing off all their starbases, they will no longer have any means of building up their fleets. Would it be better for planets, maybe even just the capital planet, to be able to build the lowest level of military ships so that this does not equal a death sentence?
Starbases cannot be destroyed.
If you're left with no starbases it means the enemy has captured them all and you lost the war.