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Developer Corner | Support Companies

Greetings all!

Today we’ll be taking a dive into one of the fundamental building blocks of HOI4: division design, and some changes we’re making to it. This dev corner might be a little less grand than previous dev corners, but division design remains extremely important to the HOI experience, and is a part of the game that’s remained more or less untouched since release.

Those of you with exceedingly long memories may remember in my early roadmap for Hearts of Iron that I mentioned a desire to have doctrines better affect how the player is incentivized to design their divisions. The first step of making this possible is by adding another dimension of choice to support companies.

Support Company Changes
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Here’s a look at one of Germany’s starting templates. Ordinarily, engineers would grant a bonus of 5 entrenchment at their most basic level: here, we’re getting 2 (Ed: 2.25 actually… we’ll fix that in post).
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And here, in a little more detail - is the breakdown of why. Here, Engineers no longer begin by applying a flat bonus of 5 entrenchment - instead, their initial stats will grant a bonus of 0.25 entrenchment per Leg Infantry battalion in their division.
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As you can see, this bonus is not applied to the cavalry battalions I have so wisely placed in my infantry division. We’ll go into the rationale behind this specific change later, but suffice it to say the following:

Support companies can now confer multiplicative or additive bonuses to line battalions of specific categories within their own division.

While it may seem like a small change, this allows us to better represent the effects of certain doctrinal advancements or technologies, and adds a completely new dimension to consider when choosing support companies.

Changes to Existing Support Companies [very subject to change]

Engineers

As you can see above, Engineers will be changing a bit. They’ll retain the flat entrenchment they gain from tech, but by moving entrenchment more towards a per-battalion balancing value, we’re able to flatten the efficacy of entrenchment and devalue it slightly for org-wall playstyles. Entrenchment itself is a multiplicative stat of course, so we take care to ensure that the upper end does not move too far ahead of what was previously achievable.

Recon
The neglected child of the support company family is finally getting some new tools. Recon has always been an underperforming support company, and these changes aim to augment the value of tactical reconnaissance on the battlefield. By default, mounted recon, motorized recon, and armored car recon companies will now confer a [10%] soft attack bonus to all battalions matching the Artillery category.

Note: we’re making the choice to stress the benefits of recon on artillery rather than general infantry here for game balance reasons.

Light Tank recon will confer a [10%] Hard Attack bonus to all Armored battalions.

Recon also gets some other new toys, some of which we’ll cover in doctrines, and others in a later diary on some New Cool Stuff (™).

Field Hospital
A slightly left-field modifier here, Field Hospitals now increase the strength (HP) of all infantry battalions within their division by [10%]. This results in proportionally less manpower (& equipment) loss per damage received.

Flame Tanks
These now increase the breakthrough of all infantry battalions by [5%].

Military Police
A support company with low usage outside of specific garrison templates, we wanted to give these slightly more utility within line divisions. These will now increase the base org recovery rate of all infantry battalions by 20%.

Doctrine Changes

We’re still working on exactly how these will look, but here’s a sample of what we have planned:
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Dispersed Support: Signal companies grant 10% defense to all Artillery battalions in division
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Airland Battle: Standard recon grants 10% air attack to anti-air battalions in division
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Mechanized Wave: Armored Car recon grants 1 max organization to all Leg Infantry battalions in division.
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Central Planning: Logistics Company adds 5% defense to all infantry battalions in division

As mentioned above we have more planned for these, but this should serve as an indicative sample of what is coming. These changes are intended to add an extra dimension to consider when building division templates, accentuating the value of interdisciplinary coordination. They also give us an opportunity to equalize the value of some underperforming support companies in a slightly more realistic way than flat stats.

Of course, the production value of your bonus-granting support companies will be weighted more favorably towards larger divisions - this is something we’re keeping an eye on, but broadly speaking we’re happy with this direction.

As well as being a significant balance change (and modding tool) these changes were necessary for a new small feature we’ll show off in a future diary. I’ll leave you guessing until then ;)

Speaking of dev diaries, we will call you to arms next week for something special… stay tuned, and save the date!

/Arheo
 
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Mechanized Wave: Armored Car recon grants 1 max organization to all Leg Infantry battalions in division.
Does this mean armored car recon grants a total of +1 extra org to an 18 width pure infantry division (since normal org modifiers averages that out) or it's addictive like the engineer company example (so it would grant +9 extra org)?
 
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Love this change. It will open a lot of possibilities for unique stuff in modding doctrines.
I'm not overly concerned nor tuned into how vanilla meta balance works nowadays, but regardless I will mention that straight-up attack stats modifiers that scale with the battalions themself, before combat modifiers even apply can be very dangerous and difficult to balance once you reliably reach "critical" attack values (beyond reasonable defence).
 
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I don't see the objective in nerfing Engineers for small divisions. An Engineering Company should help divisions no matter how small, but it'll matter little with the current numbers. AFAIK, with this system, a 40w infantry division will get more attack than 2x 20w infantry divisions, even though the latter is double the cost in support equipment. Engineering Companies are actually very expensive when applied in mass, so usually people don't use them as countries like Germany that will have cheap infantry and good tanks with engineers.

Tank Recon giving 10% HA to tanks is way too good, when good tank templates already hit a base of 500-800 HA depending on the template's goal, which can get way higher into the low thousands in combat with all the modifiers. It'll make Tank Recon a mandatory choice.

(Medium) Flame Tanks are already super good with the terrain modifiers, maybe too good. I don't see a reason to buff them.

Then there are some oddities, e.g. I don't see why Military Police should matter (so much) in combat, but other than that this is overall a cool idea.
 
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I don't see the objective in nerfing Engineers for small divisions. An Engineering Company should help divisions no matter how small, but it'll matter little with the current numbers. AFAIK, with this system, a 40w infantry division will get more attack than 2x 20w infantry divisions, even though the latter is double the cost in support equipment. Engineering Companies are actually very expensive when applied in mass, so usually people don't use them as countries like Germany that will have cheap infantry and good tanks with engineers.

Tank Recon giving 10% HA to tanks is way too good, when good tank templates already hit a base of 500-800 HA depending on the template's goal, which can get way higher into the low thousands in combat with all the modifiers. It'll make Tank Recon a mandatory choice.

(Medium) Flame Tanks are already super good with the terrain modifiers, maybe too good. I don't see a reason to buff them.

Then there are some oddities, e.g. I don't see why Military Police should matter (so much) in combat, but other than that this is overall a cool idea.
The problem with flame tanks at the moment is just how unviable the others are, Light flame tank? Why bother when a medium is slightly more IC for better bonuses, Heavy flame tank? Way too expensive for what its worth
 
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I love that support companies and doctrines are getting these kind of changes. Older core mechanics really could do with a in-depth revision especially stuff like resources, manpower and army/division organisation seem to have a lot of room for improvement and its great that we are getting some of that here. Though I must write down some of my observations about the particular changes proposed here:
And here, in a little more detail - is the breakdown of why. Here, Engineers no longer begin by applying a flat bonus of 5 entrenchment - instead, their initial stats will grant a bonus of 0.25 entrenchment per Leg Infantry battalion in their division.
I don't think entrenchment should be limited to leg infantry. Cavalry and motorised units in this period were used as mobile infantry and when on the defensive they built entrenched positions like any other unit. Cavalry divisions had engineer detachments like any other unit and employed them for both defensive and offensive purposes. It was their mobility that made it harder for such divisions to entrench but this is already represented in the game as one looses entrenchment if the division is moved. Therefore it would be much better if all infantry/cavalry battalions were counted for this entrenchment bonus.
Recon
The neglected child of the support company family is finally getting some new tools. Recon has always been an underperforming support company, and these changes aim to augment the value of tactical reconnaissance on the battlefield. By default, mounted recon, motorized recon, and armored car recon companies will now confer a [10%] soft attack bonus to all battalions matching the Artillery category.

Note: we’re making the choice to stress the benefits of recon on artillery rather than general infantry here for game balance reasons.

Light Tank recon will confer a [10%] Hard Attack bonus to all Armored battalions.

Recon also gets some other new toys, some of which we’ll cover in doctrines, and others in a later diary on some New Cool Stuff (™).
Prior and during WW2 Tank recon units were widespread among all types of divisions and highly sought after. The amount of tanks required to equip all infantry divisions with prevented mass deployment. For example German army had a plan to get every army corps a Panzer-Brigade for recon and general infantry support a rather ambitious plan considering it meant somehow finding over 7000 tanks. Polish army on the other hand did organise its tank force primarily for recon and all (independent) cavalry brigade and about half of all infantry divisions received tank recon detachments. Note that at this point in both of these armies most tanks were also equipped with just machine guns not cannons. So it seems very weird that light tank recon would give only 10% hard attack it would make far more sense if it gave both bonuses. Personally I would argue for the same [10%] soft attack bonus and a smaller [7,5%] hard attack bonus (to represent how its harder to keep track of armoured units). Perhaps it would be even better if the different recon units each gave different levels of attack bonuses lowest to cavalry recon and highest to armoured recon say in steps of [2,5%] or in some non-linear way. This way well equipped mechanised armies will perform much better which will again be more accurate and provide greater incentive to try and modernise ones army.
Flame Tanks
These now increase the breakthrough of all infantry battalions by [5%].
If this excludes cavalry or motorised like the engineers then id say it should also be changed. There is nothing that magically prevents cavalry or motorised units to make use of flamethrower tanks.
Military Police
A support company with low usage outside of specific garrison templates, we wanted to give these slightly more utility within line divisions. These will now increase the base org recovery rate of all infantry battalions by 20%.
Im both for and against this change. MPs were indeed used to police the soldiers themselves and enforce discipline and org recovery is one way to represent that but these duties always had to be performed by someone so MPs were to my knowledge something universal to all armies and all divisions. The game doesn't include other types of detachments that were always present so things like say bakers companies or HQ companies etc. At the same time MPs were never used as some kind of anti-insurgment army but this is and even with this change would still remain the main employment of the MP company in the game. Perhaps it would be better if Military Police was simply changed to be explicitly a garrison unit say a "Security Company" (Name taken from German "Security" detachments). The org recovery bonus could still remain to represent that frontline units would stay at the front instead of being randomly burdened with rear duties (again a real issue all armies struggled with).
Mechanized Wave: Armored Car recon grants 1 max organization to all Leg Infantry battalions in division.
I know the devs want to fix no one using ACs but this won't do it. It also introduces a rather ridiculous situation where recon cars with armour (appropriate) will give you a org bonus but if someone used the tank designer to make a tank on wheels (inappropriate) it won't count (Hello Human Resources?!). I restate my comment I made in a exchange with one of the devs about the future of armoured cars; it would be for the best to simply make them part of the tank designer, its already possible to design a armoured car in the tank designer making the whole AC tech tree completely redundant. By ditching separate AC tech tree and buffing wheeled tank suspension ACs would no longer require separate research and the flexibility of the tank designer would allow the player to make something that is actually useful. This way ACs would be a economic choice as a actual cheap alternative for tanks instead of a strictly worse vehicle, that doesn't even get all doctrine/national spirit buffs of tanks and also takes up extra research time.
 
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Great to see a change up and balancing pass incoming for both doctrines and support companies.

I find the example provided with engineering companies a little perplexing as well on first glance - but I guess it makes sense when considering the asymmetrical nature of division organisation and how the change would nerf 8 or 10 width infantry walling.
 
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These are all great and interesting changes! Will it be possible to use these changes to give units a modifier for defense/attack against a specific unit type (like light tanks?) This would be a fantastic change for most of the HOI4 modders I know, myself included.
 
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By default, mounted recon, motorized recon, and armored car recon companies will now confer a [10%] soft attack bonus to all battalions matching the Artillery category.

I actually suggested tying in a boost to artillery soft attack from recon a few years back. Glad to see it in the game. Nice changes all around as well.
 
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I really like the concept of support companies giving bonuses only to a specific type of division. However, have you considered altering doctrines so that support companies could also buff other types? Like, maybe mass conscription could alter recon so it buffs infantry too, or something like that.

Edit: Thanks for the clarification! Since I didn´t know what specific changes you were bringing to the companies it was hard to tell what doctrines were actually doing, but there is indeed a boost to anti-air in recon for example, so I am excited to see these changes when they come!
 
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I'm assuming you're intentionally leaving out the bonuses for other types of batallions, such as tank battalions?
Because if all support companies only provide bonuses for infantry (except for recon which was mentikned), our tank divisions will be much more limited in what is viable to choose D:

...or maybe you're planning to add different mechanized support companies with bonuses specifically for tank divisions °_°
 
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Support battalions, not companies?

(Divisions typically have battalions providing division-wide support...might be a localization error from Swedish to English).
 
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Excited to see support company changes, particularly excited for support companies being able to magnify specific battalions.

I hope you will adjust signal company to boost armor org. Radios and signal company should be mandatory for any HOI4 player.
 
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I love that support companies and doctrines are getting these kind of changes. Older core mechanics really could do with a in-depth revision especially stuff like resources, manpower and army/division organisation seem to have a lot of room for improvement and its great that we are getting some of that here. Though I must write down some of my observations about the particular changes proposed here:

I don't think entrenchment should be limited to leg infantry. Cavalry and motorised units in this period were used as mobile infantry and when on the defensive they built entrenched positions like any other unit. Cavalry divisions had engineer detachments like any other unit and employed them for both defensive and offensive purposes. It was their mobility that made it harder for such divisions to entrench but this is already represented in the game as one looses entrenchment if the division is moved. Therefore it would be much better if all infantry/cavalry battalions were counted for this entrenchment bonus.

The engineer company ultimately provides a bit of the scaling infantry buff, and a bit of flat buff to everything. We're aware that mounted infantry are not Uhlans charging into battle with lances, but we have to make some changes based on balance, and some on historicity - I think these achieve a bit of both.

I know the devs want to fix no one using ACs but this won't do it. It also introduces a rather ridiculous situation where recon cars with armour (appropriate) will give you a org bonus but if someone used the tank designer to make a tank on wheels (inappropriate) it won't count (Hello Human Resources?!). I restate my comment I made in a exchange with one of the devs about the future of armoured cars; it would be for the best to simply make them part of the tank designer, its already possible to design a armoured car in the tank designer making the whole AC tech tree completely redundant. By ditching separate AC tech tree and buffing wheeled tank suspension ACs would no longer require separate research and the flexibility of the tank designer would allow the player to make something that is actually useful. This way ACs would be a economic choice as a actual cheap alternative for tanks instead of a strictly worse vehicle, that doesn't even get all doctrine/national spirit buffs of tanks and also takes up extra research time.

I've already stated a few times that ACs belong in the tank designer. We won't be making that change this time, but I don't think that should stop us making changes related to it.

These are all great and interesting changes! Will it be possible to use these changes to give units a modifier for defense/attack against a specific unit type (like light tanks?) This would be a fantastic change for most of the HOI4 modders I know, myself included.

I'm afraid not - that's a very different kettle of fish.

I really like the concept of support companies giving bonuses only to a specific type of division. However, have you considered altering doctrines so that support companies could also buff other types? Like, maybe mass conscription could alter recon so it buffs infantry too, or something like that.

I believe the latter screenshots indicate this :)
 
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Any thoughts on having field hospitals be built on a tile and it giving an extra trickleback to divisions in proximity? Maybe some changes as well for supply depots being built in urban centers as opposed to in the open.
 
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How about a mobile Supply Depot - something that could stay with the front line but could also get captured if not specifically destroyed to prevent capture?
 
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The engineer company ultimately provides a bit of the scaling infantry buff, and a bit of flat buff to everything. We're aware that mounted infantry are not Uhlans charging into battle with lances, but we have to make some changes based on balance, and some on historicity - I think these achieve a bit of both.
Well then this is just a simple nerf to most cavalry/motorised as engineers tend to get added to all divisions. I don't think motorised overperform on defence much less cavalry so it seems this is going to make a mixed army less optimal than just having only 2 types of divisions that is infantry and tanks. What is the desired balance here? Are cavalry/motorised divisions intended to be just weaker than leg infantry?
 
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