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Economy 2.0 Dev Diary #1

Hello again! We are back with another development diary. This time we look at the economy re-work or as we like to call it “Economy 2.0” set to release within the upcoming two weeks. You’ve shared a lot of great feedback with us, from bringing bugs to our attention to sharing how you feel while playing the game. As we went through your feedback, it became clear that certain systems, particularly the economic simulation, weren’t transparent enough and didn’t allow you enough control over your city. We felt this was important to improve, so for the past few months, we have overhauled several systems based on your feedback.

Before we get into the nitty-gritty of these changes, we want to thank you for the detailed and constructive feedback you shared. It really helped us understand what issues you experienced, what information you lacked, and how we could improve things. We look forward to hearing your feedback following these changes so we can continue to work on improving Cities: Skylines II and make it the best it possibly can be.

Alright, let’s get to it! Our goal with Economy 2.0 was to make the systems more straightforward and responsive, so you can make more meaningful choices and have more control over the various gameplay aspects. This means fewer safeguards and automated systems that work invisibly under the surface and an increased level of challenge. We still aim for the game to be playable without paying too much attention to where and how money and resources flow in the city so new players have a chance to succeed, while still leaving room for experienced players to benefit from optimizing their city. We’ll get into the details below but to give you a quick overview here are the major changes of Economy 2.0:

  • Government Subsidies have been removed to make the economy more challenging and transparent
  • Importing City Services from Outside Connections now has a toggle and a fee
  • City Service Upkeep costs have been increased
  • Calculations for Demand have been improved
  • New calculations for rent and household spending allow citizens to afford to live in Low Density Residential
  • The production chain has been rebalanced to bring tax income to a more reasonable level


THE ECONOMY
A key point in the feedback we received was that the game didn’t challenge many of you when it comes to managing the city’s finances. Striking the right balance is hard. We want new players to be able to dive into the game while still providing players from Cities: Skylines or long-term fans of the city-building genre a challenge. We introduced Government Subsidies in Cities: Skylines II to act as a helping hand as your city got established, allowing them to scale with expenses. But they also removed agency and consequences from the game. Why build a city with a well-balanced economy if the government will cover all the expenses of your Utopia?

We considered several approaches to Government Subsidies but in the end, we decided to completely remove them from the city budget. This puts you in full control of your city’s finances and gives you a reason to consider what you spend your money on and when. It will be up to you to create a profitable city, and when you succeed, you get to take all the credit. If you struggle to get the hang of it, the in-game tutorials are there to help you out and the tips can always be accessed through the Advisor (the question mark in the top-right corner of the screen). And of course, you can always ask us or your fellow players for help.

MONEY
Money makes the world, or in this case the city, go round. In Cities: Skylines II, money circulates both within the city and in and out of the simulation through money sources and sinks. We work with 4 entities in Cities: Skylines II:
  • You, the player/the city
  • Households
  • Companies
  • Abstracted investors

Each of these has ways they can gain or lose money, some of which are preset and automatic, some of which are within your control. Below we have a quick overview of these to give you a sense of how money flows in your city, and how you can affect it.

Money.png


CITY SERVICES
As you can see, City Service construction and upkeep, along with roads of course, are where most (if not all) of your money goes. In Economy 2.0 we’ve rebalanced the costs of City Services which includes a significant increase in the upkeep costs. Our goal here is to give your choices more meaning as your city grows. Is your city’s economy strong enough to afford a University or will you have to increase taxes to pay for it? Can you afford to improve the city’s mail service to make citizens happy or will that have to wait until your economy is more stable? These are the kinds of questions we hope you will be asking yourself as you play with the update.

But services aren’t just available locally in your city. Your neighbors can provide you with garbage trucks or ambulances from Outside Connections if your city isn’t quite able to provide those for your citizens yet. With our initial design, the only cost of importing services (excluding Electricity and Water and Sewage) was the time it took the service vehicles to arrive and perform the needed tasks. Economy 2.0 changes that by adding a fee for importing services, which scales with the city’s population.

Now, we can’t add a fee and not give you a way to avoid it, so we have added a new City Policy called Import City Services. It works as a toggle: When it’s enabled your city can and will import services that are lacking in your city, and when it’s disabled, which is the default, your city relies on what’s available locally. In its current form, it’s an all-or-nothing toggle, but we are considering expanding the service import to give you more control. What do you think, any particular direction you would like us to take? We’d love to hear your thoughts.

CityPolicy.png

City Policies can be found by clicking the City Information button next to the demand bars


LIFE IN THE CITY
While we call this systems rework “Economy 2.0” it affects more than just the economic simulation. To complement both the changes to the financial side of the game and the improvements to the Land Value system in patch 1.1.0f1, we’ve made improvements to Demand, Rent, Education, and Citizen Happiness. These changes affect your citizens’ lives, and how and where they choose to live.

DEMAND
Most noticeable are the changes to how Demand is calculated, allowing it to be more responsive and more accurately reflect the state of the city at any given time. Residential demand has been expanded so the desired density is tied to the size and wealth of households. On average low density residential is the most expensive type of housing as a single household is responsible for the building’s expenses (paying Rent and Upkeep), while residents in medium and high density can split the costs. When wealthier households move into the city, the demand for low density increases, and when citizens with lower wealth, such as students, want to move in, the demand for high density goes up. Similarly, families will want more space, preferring low or medium density homes, while singles are perfectly happy with the smaller homes found in high density apartment complexes.

The type of households that spawn are determined by the average citizen happiness, homelessness in the city, the residential tax rates, available education spots, and open job positions.

Turning our attention to commercial demand, it’s now more closely tied to what households need. The more households consume, the more demand for commercial zones you’ll see. We’ve tweaked the household need for shopping, forcing them to pay rent and consider the garbage fee before going shopping. Furthermore, we have also tied the types of companies that can inhabit commercial buildings more closely to the products citizens consume. This means you’re less likely to see a bunch of the same companies spawn as the simulation seeks to provide a more varied selection of products for your citizens.

Both office and industry demand have been adjusted to a more reasonable level to match the other zone types, and their interactions with commercial have been strengthened, so you can produce what your shops need locally. Additionally, industry now has more workplaces so you can satisfy the demand more easily.

EDUCATION AND WORK
We’ve made tweaks to education before, particularly to encourage more teens to go to high school, but we didn’t quite reach our goals, so Economy 2.0 includes further improvements to the education system. Children always go to elementary school if the city has one with available student spots, while teens have a high chance of going to high school. Some will still choose to work, especially if no school is available, but you should see more teens in high school. We’ve also improved the chance they graduate from both elementary and high school, and for those adults who didn’t get their high school diploma, there is now a chance, albeit low, to apply to a high school with available student spots so that they can graduate.

Teens and adults can both join the workforce if there are suitable jobs for them. However, if they have health problems, such as being sick or injured, they don’t count as employable citizens and will need to recover before they can work. They may find work in the city, if any job positions with their skill level or lower are available, or they may resort to finding work in a neighboring city, though working in Outside Connections is less desirable with this rework.

If they cannot find work, they become unemployed and receive unemployment from the government. However, this option is only available for a limited time, so if you don’t provide them with suitable jobs, they will eventually have no other option than to leave the city as they cannot pay their rent.


BUILDING A BUSINESS
Your city consists of more than just citizens though, many businesses make it their home too, and demand isn’t the only thing we tweaked for commercial, industry, and office. Let’s take a look at what else has changed, starting with production. You already know the basics: One or more input resources are processed and turned into a more refined product, which requires both workers and time. Higher education level workers do this more efficiently (they work smarter, not harder), and each product has a certain amount of work needed to produce one unit. Previously, the game calculated the amount of work needed at the start of the game, but we have changed that to a preconfigured amount to make the game more predictable and allow us to finetune things. Additionally, we have adjusted the amount of work needed to produce a single unit for all products reducing the overall production, which in turn reduces the company profits, and by extension, the amount of tax you can collect from them.

But that’s not all. The price of resources has been adjusted as well as how it’s calculated. It now has two parts: A discounted price paid by industrial companies when they purchase materials for their production, and a normal price for commercial companies to purchase the goods. The two prices are then combined into one as they’re sold to consumers, allowing everyone to profit (hopefully, at least) from the sales. But don’t worry about the consumers, we have also increased the wages companies pay so the citizens can afford both their homes and the resources they need.

Alright, that was a lot of information! With that, we’ll end today’s dev diary, but don’t miss part 2 coming next week where we look at Rent, Building Upgrades, and what happens to existing cities. In the meantime, we’d love to hear your thoughts on what’s to come. Any changes you’re particularly excited about? Any that leave you with questions? Let us know in the comments below.
 
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WHAT??! There are no trade schools?? Really?
CO: Please. Fix it. Now.
Skilled laborers are a thing IRL. You know: road workers, construction workers, retail cashiers, firemen... A huge section of the work force! They do not come out from high schools or universities. In CS2: Do they?
Those would be jobs for Educated workers, or level 3 on the education tiers and requiring only graduation from a high school. I haven't checked recently but I'm pretty sure the road maintenance depots, fire stations, most businesses, etc. that would employ the jobs you mention have quite a few job slots for Educated workers.
 
This feels like good progress is being made to help the simulation feel more real and responsive.

One area I have struggled with is the realism with low density housing. In a smaller or midsize town, you often will have 90% or more low density homes. Apartments aren't nearly as common, and certainly not multi story commerical buildings. Hearing that the housing demand will be tied to wealth, will this make it difficult/impossible to build a nearly all low density sprawling city? I think it's quite common to have sprawling low density residential areas in (at least, American) cities, even though average wealth is quite low. I just bristle at the thought of a city with a population of only 500 spread across 20 city blocks that ends up having multiple multi story apartments.

Keep up the great work! Can't wait to get back into the game.
 
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Thinking about subsidies again I think it's a good solution to remove them on the short term.
On the long term however it might make sense to bring them back but not by randomly make them happen without any background or negative effect but in a more senseful way.

Instead of having just subsidies existing as +xxxxxxx credits they should be split into senseful packages which unlock by milestones. Subsidies could also appear not as "money" in the classic sense. Some ideas:
  • If the player has a large amount of farmland (xxxxx cells), he can opt in for farmland subsidies in form of an increased demand for farms, low density housing and a discount on costs per cell for both areas. This however could decrease theoretical earnings from farming export as a large portion of produced natural goods will be used nationally as part of the deal.
  • If the player has a large amount of uneducated residents (over 25%) he can opt in for education subsidies which not provide money but increase the funding without increasing costs. The negative side of that deal could be a increased number of students from the outside which just come here to study as it's part of a national plan - these might fill class rooms but never turn into actual residents (might be counteracted by providing high class jobs).
  • If the players city shows to be interesting for tourists but doesn't have an international airport the government could offer to build one for free and also without monthly fees, however this airport has to be used by other outside connections which will drastically increase traffic around town.
  • If players have a good amount of railway infrastructure (xxx km of rails build) they could opt in for a national railroad project cutting costs of stations and infrastructure by 75%, however the income from tickets will be lowered as the government will take a good share, also the color of lines which connect other cities will be defined by the government too (random color - say hello to hot pink trains!) ;)
  • If the map has large oil reservoirs the player can opt in to build petrochemical industry. The player will get the buildings at no cost and get some compensation credits per virtual cell covered. Export earnings will be split between the nation and the city and pollution will increase. Industry areas also will spawn more buildings which use petrochemical resources.
  • ...
Subsidies in such way could be used to boost specific aspects when needed without affecting the cities overall balance in credits directly which could be interesting. Also this is how most subsidies irl work: nations and governments try to boost specific fields or support specific groups or specific projects and not just throw money at a city :)
 
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CPP and Overcharged Egg have released videos on the new economy patch, for those who enjoy watching the content creator's videos.

To sum up what was said:
- You can go bankrupt now (OE said he went bankrupt twice in testing.)
- Both of them mentioned commercial zones being more varied, with less repeated shops (gas stations.)
- There is a better understanding of what is happening with the economy (both said this.)
- For existing saves you will have to run the game for a long time for the fixes to be implemented (CPP said a couple of hours of the game playing, and I think OE said it is probably easier to start a new city.)
- The numbers of jobs in industry have increased, although office jobs remained the same (CPP talked about this.)
- While this is the economy patch there isn't changes to how the game is played, you'll still need mods to do detailing (OE talked about this.)

That's what I can remember anyway. If I got something wrong, then my mistake.

My takeaways from reading the comments, the videos and the dev diary is the game will be more challenging to play. They will need to find a happy medium between challenge for veteran players and new players (CPP said that's what the community is for, to help out new players.) A lot of the comments talked about having a toggle for each individual service which is a good suggestion.

I'm excited to try this patch out to see how the game feels.

P.S.
I talked about the content creators since they have actually played the economy patch. Personally I really enjoy the work of these two people, but some others may not like them or their videos. To each their own.
 
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Is the idea of services import to be toggleable (?) with more granularity (i.e., deciding what exact services get imported)?

I think it would also be nice to get some numbers and some more "formal logic" to describe the mechanism. With the English description, it is hard to judge if the idea will be good or bad (I mean, the current systems do not look terrible when described in English, but they are awful in practice). If you are willing to go through feedback and listen to criticism, giving more precise information would be beneficial (you could look around other PDX titles to see how they try to do so in their dev diaries).

EDIT: Also, as others have said, let the players see information in the game. Hiding information does not make the game more accessible; it just makes it frustrating. Players cannot understand why things are happening, cannot fully understand mechanics, and eventually give up. PDX made the same mistakes with Vic3, and with every patch, they have added more players' access to information. Learn from this and do the same.
 
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One suggestion I would make...given the current behavior is to import city services I think that should be the default with the option to turn it off. If enabled by default isn't an option perhaps negate the option so it's something like "Prohibit Service Imports" and then default to off.

Now that the gov subsidies are gone, one way to help out newer players might be a "one time" bailout from the state if your city goes bankrupt.
 
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It's nice to see the game finally leaving Early Access.

Why did this release in 2023, again?
Unfortunately the game is not leaving EA anytime soon. This is one step of a long uphill climb. We're at the point where the devs decided to make their game an actual game. Congrats on that, CO! (We better not ask how it's possible it took half a year of meticulous feedback collection to figure that one out.)

"We still aim for the game to be playable without paying too much attention to where and how money and resources flow in the city so new players have a chance to succeed, while still leaving room for experienced players to benefit from optimizing their city."

If players succeed without paying attention where money and resources go, there's no game because there's no challenge. This is game design 101. New players can be helped with loans and making systems transparent which is just a good idea in general.

Nerfing the money influx might be the most important thing. (But without seeing it ingame there's no way to tell if the interconnected systems actually work together well. But I guess this is just the first iteration anyway.)
So the most important part is player agency. If your "deep economy" is mostly cosmetics it might as well not be there in the first place.
 
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Local services will take priority simply because of distance needed to cover. So if you have enough ambulances available, you won't pay a penny.
The post does not mention that you pay just for the agents when they arrive. You pay for the general access to the service, scaled on your population.
However, if those parts of the needs that your own services fulfill are discounted proportionally, then this would take care of the issue. A city with sufficient services of its own would pay (practically) nothing even when enabling the policy.
 
But playing around with different configuration of taxation/subsidizing is a major source of intrigue, curiosity, and troubleshooting value chains.
Accommodating Role playing and player-imposed creative challenges with diverse scenarios as different subsidy biases.

The fact that unlimited money is being offered as alternative tells me whomever made that association is not actually engaged by the content, which is no reason to take it away from everyone who actually appreciated these additional features?
 
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The post does not mention that you pay just for the agents when they arrive. You pay for the general access to the service, scaled on your population.
However, if those parts of the needs that your own services fulfill are discounted proportionally, then this would take care of the issue. A city with sufficient services of its own would pay (practically) nothing even when enabling the policy.
Given the description I doubt this is how it works. I think it should work as you describe, but I fear it won't.

I hope they could describe more precisely what they do. We are likely to see a lot of disappointment with the patch.
 
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Importing (and exporting) services should be granular, because a city's needs are resources are shaped by their location and policies. I might be able to build all sorts of cheap renewable energy, but still have no place for my trash and sewage. And vice versa.

And speaking of pollution, there needs to be some way to mitigate polluted areas when the source of pollution is removed. It might be expensive and/or take a long time to implement, but there should be something.
 
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Thanks for listening and integrating feedback from the community. Looking forward to this in action! Though I agree with some of the feedback presented here, like imports should be granular rather than an all on/off toggle, this is a major step in the right direction.
 
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Is the idea of services import to be toggleable (?) with more granularity (i.e., deciding what exact services get imported)?

I think it would also be nice to get some numbers and some more "formal logic" to describe the mechanism. With the English description, it is hard to judge if the idea will be good or bad (I mean, the current systems do not look terrible when described in English, but they are awful in practice). If you are willing to go through feedback and listen to criticism, giving more precise information would be beneficial (you could look around other PDX titles to see how they try to do so in their dev diaries).

EDIT: Also, as others have said, let the players see information in the game. Hiding information does not make the game more accessible; it just makes it frustrating. Players cannot understand why things are happening, cannot fully understand mechanics, and eventually give up. PDX made the same mistakes with Vic3, and with every patch, they have added more players' access to information. Learn from this and do the same.
They are currently gathering feedback about making the city services imports be granular, or just leave it as it is. So, this patch won't have those changes yet.

As for the information, we will need to get some feedback on the UI side of things first, before we can see the numbers and information relevant to our simulations of the player's city.
 
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Thank you for all those informations ! I can't wait to test the patch! (In a new save)

In one of my save, I created services very quickly and I was in the red. I tried to balance with taxes but the moment I was able to buy (with a loan) a geothermal power plant to export my electricity, I no longer had any economic problems. It could be a very good idea to challenge and force more people to make choices, even if we can export a lot of electricity for example.

Finally, when I see the option of services from other cities, I would really like to have several but arranged by theme such as "waste treatment", "health", "security"..
I would especially like with this patch to resolve the display problem between the chirper message which says that there are air pollution problems, whereas in the air pollution menu I have 0% pollution.. I don't really know who I should believe anymore.
 
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The patch is done so no changes are going to be made like some of you are asking, you don't even know all the patch details yet. Let them breath, wait for the patch and play it. Some of you will never be satisfied, there will always be something YOU want changed. The patch will fix the big economy bugs, the patch will make game play harder, thats all most people have asked for. So after this hopefully they can move on, fix any remaining bugs in the game and then start expanding the game. If they listened to you all we would end up with a boring, hard grinding all micro managing game which CS never was.
 
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If players succeed without paying attention where money and resources go, there's no game because there's no challenge. ...
Even without the money causing problems, there was a challenge. Or did you never read someone complaining about "I have no demand for residential" or "No one is moving into my city" or other things like that.
 
@co_avanya

Is income for citizens directly linked to education level or based on education and company profitability?

As an example, can a low skilled worker working for a highly profitable company/industry earn more than a high skilled worker working for a not so profitable company?
If that is the case wouldn't it make sense to tax residents based on income and not education?
 
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If this patch adds more challenge, I think I’ll pick the game up again. I think the described changes are a step into the right direction.

One thing I am not really sure about is the residential density. In the game it seems to be tied to household wealth.
Does this mean our little villages will have huge tower blocks? Because in the real life, density is also tied to available land.
Big cities have less room to expand, so expansion happens vertically instead of horizontally. That also means that even wealthy citizens will live in high density buildings.

I hope we’re not forced to build soviet style towns (I already have a game for that :) ), but I also feel excited to see what the patch will bring!
 
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