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Economy 2.0 Dev Diary #2

Welcome back to the second dev diary detailing the changes coming in the next patch. If you missed it, check out the first part here. Today we are covering a few important changes not directly related to the economy and we’ll go over what you can expect when loading up your existing cities.

Let’s start with Rent. Most likely you have run into complaints of “High Rent” in the game, so let’s talk about it. To complement the Land Value changes in patch 1.1.0f1 in March, we have tweaked how Rent works. First of all, we removed the virtual landlord so a building’s upkeep is now paid equally by all renters. Second, we changed the way rent is calculated. For those interested, the calculation looks like this:

Rent = (LandValue + (ZoneType * Building Level)) * LotSize * SpaceMultiplier

This of course affects the “High Rent” notifications you may have encountered, but we’ve tweaked those directly as well, so they are now based on the household’s income. That means that even if they currently don’t have enough money in their balance to pay rent, they won’t complain and will instead spend less money on resource consumption. Only when their income is too low to be able to pay rent will they complain about “High Rent” and look for cheaper housing or move out of the city.

Besides rent, households and companies need to pay for the building’s upkeep, which in turn affects the level of the building. When they pay the full upkeep fee, the building condition increases by a constant amount until the building levels up and the tenants start paying towards the next level. Similarly, if they cannot pay it, the building condition decreases by the same amount until it’s in such poor condition it collapses.

BUILDING UPGRADES UNLEASHED
From zoned buildings automatically leveling up to the City Service building upgrades you choose and place manually. While this update doesn’t directly relate to the Economy 2.0, it shares the same patch and deserves a little spotlight. Gone are the days when you had to bulldoze the entire building to remove, or just move, an upgrade. Now, all upgrades can be removed by selecting the building, finding the upgrade in the Selected Info Panel, and clicking the bin icon.

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Deactivate or delete Extensions or relocate Sub-buildings through the Selected Info Panel

For sub-buildings, there’s even more control. They can also be removed using the bulldozer, you can pick them up and move them, or turn them on and off as needed. Moving them is particularly handy now as they don’t have to be placed in connection to the main building. As long as they are within the predefined radius and have pedestrian and/or road access, they will work like before. Sub-buildings like the Elementary School Playground just need a pedestrian path connecting them to the rest of the city, while sub-buildings like the Bus Depot Extra Garage will need road access to function. We’re excited to see how you take advantage of this new freedom in your cities, so don’t hesitate to tag us on social media if you’re showing off screenshots.


EXISTING CITIES
Now you might wonder how all of this affects your existing cities, so let’s get the most obvious question out of the way first. Saves from before the economy rework still work, though we expect they will have a transition period as the simulation adapts to the changes. When it comes to modded saves, we can’t make any guarantees, but keep an eye out for updates or instructions from the modders. Mods that affect the simulation are likely to be affected by the update.

When you load up your city (and unpause) there are a few things you should keep in mind. With Government Subsidies removed and City Service upkeep increased, the cost of running your city just increased. If your city relies on ambulances, hearses, fire engines, police cars, and garbage trucks coming from Outside Connection, make sure to enable the Import City Services policy in the City Information panel, but don’t forget that your neighbors charge a fee to help you out. All this is expected to create a negative money trend, but depending on your city’s finances, your tax income might be enough to offset the new costs once the calculations catch up. If you’re struggling for money, don’t forget that you can increase taxes, reduce service budgets, or temporarily turn buildings off to save on their upkeep cost.

Demand adjusts quite quickly, so don’t be alarmed if some of your demand bars empty or fill up when you start playing. With the increase in industrial manufacturing space, your industry will be on a hiring spree that’s likely to drive up your residential demand - unless your city has workers already looking for a job. We recommend giving it some time though as companies (commercial, industrial, and office) readjust their production and employee numbers to be profitable, which we expect will overall lead to an increase in unemployment in your city.

With the new calculations for residential density demand, your citizens may also start looking for different types of housing or move around the city. Thankfully, the new calculations for rent and resource consumption should help them afford the type of housing they prefer, and we expect most (if not all) of your “High Rent” notifications will disappear after letting the simulation run for a while. If you keep seeing these or they start to come back, then make sure to check your unemployment and provide citizens with jobs so that they can pay their rent.

With time and some tweaks, your existing cities should adjust to the changes, so you can get back to realizing their full potential. And as always, don’t hesitate to ask for help if you encounter any situations you’re unsure of how to handle and report any bugs you might run into here.


WHAT’S NEXT?
Before we finish for today, we’d like to share our plans going forward. We will of course follow discussions and read feedback you share as you play with these changes. We’ve done extensive testing to get the changes as balanced as possible, but we know that some tweaking will likely still be necessary once you all start sharing your experiences.

We’ve already started work on the next major patch which we hope to have ready for you in Q3, and we want to give you a little sneak peek at what you can expect. As previously mentioned, we want to expand the service import to bring you more control. We’re also looking at what we can improve in the UI and how the game relays information to you, so you have everything you need to solve issues in the game. We’d love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Are there any issues you’ve struggled to solve in your city? Any information you have been looking for but weren’t able to find?

Last, but definitely not least, the art team has been cooking up some new free buildings for you all. We appreciate each and every one of you for sticking with us and giving us a chance to make Cities: Skylines II what it can and should be. Your patience and support mean the world to us and we hope the new service buildings and vehicles can serve as a token of our appreciation. Thank you for being a part of our community!

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A sneak peek at some of the new service buildings and vehicles you can look forward to
 
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1. Budget balancing is super erratic, sometimes I have a gigantic (2x) surplus and the next second I have a deficit. Maybe adding some kind of window averaging would help the visualization (couldn't send image).
2. Even thought I had substantial subsidies for offices (-10% tax), very few actual offices were demanded.
3. Production is measured in "kg" even for intangible production (the only thing that matters for me), which makes no sense. It should have a toggle to get the trade balance surplus or deficit in money amounts (I don't care if I export 3 tons, I care that I export c100 000)
4. Allow paying capital on the debt, along with the interest, so that I don't have to manually open the window 300 times and pay a little bit.
5. For future: allow for more fine grained control of trade balance. This would allow for more realistic exports.
6. For future: Link the interest on the city debt to the availability of capital for business, so that taking so much debt has an actual cost, otherwise its too easy to just raise taxes temporarily.
 
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@co_avanya

When disasters destroy properties, they should remain destroyed absent intentional government policies to replace them. And if there’s such a policy, there should be a cost. This promotes a choice for players: let cims look for new homes with a happiness cost or allow them to rebuild existing homes providing a happiness boost but real reconstruction costs for the city.

Silly me quoting myself…and I had a thought to expand this idea.

1. Include this as a budget line so we can see the costs of those tornadoes any given month and allow us to cover 0-100% of rebuild costs.

2. Integrate the numerical value into the radio stations. “This month the city was battered by tornadoes and repair costs are estimated at $2.6M dollars, with many being left without any assistance due to budgetary pressures”

The feedback is basically this:
-players should notice and feel the brunt of natural disasters.
-disasters should have variations in frequency and magnitude
-perhaps this kind of granular control or economic assistance model should replace shelters altogether. The shelters feel quite unrealistic absent total annihilation. But I’d recommend adding instead of subtracting.
 
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I'll try to answer sentence after sentence because there's really some fun to be had here, hoping they don't block the comments...

The "context" that has been created is entirely subjective and has largely been contributed to by a very loud group of marginal users who haven't (apparently) bothered to try to play the game or understand its underlying simulation. And a great many users have had largely out of whack expectations for a vanilla game.

No, no, the context of disasters, of delays, of postponements, of things written and not respected, of money pocketed for a product that does not have everything that was expected... it is a highly objective context, it is a fact . You're basically blaming the players who allow themselves to disagree and assert their rights because they weren't good at understanding the game and its dynamics...ahuahuhahau truly absurd, I have no words!


"Like ALL SOFTWARE, this game needed improvement. For example, I would have liked to have seen bikes in the initial release (is that a bug, though, or an expectation?). I would have liked to have seen a prop line tool (much less props) in the initial release (is that a bug, though, or an expectation?). I would have liked to see an advanced lane-switching algorithm like TMPE had (is that a bug, though, or an expectation?)."

This is a highly rhetorical concept. All games can be improved, many are improved over time, it's a normal thing, God forbid...But unfortunately that's not the case with this game. Among other things, all the examples you mentioned, in 8 months no one has reached us and I agree with NONE. The point here is not to add what I like or what you like, the point is that the game hasn't had any additions in 8 MONTHS, always considering the aggravating circumstance that it came out mutilated in various respects.


"I chose to enjoy and learn to play the game that was delivered."
Another disconcerting and extremely servility comment. So I buy a car but they give it to me without a wheel, but it doesn't matter, I learn to drive it with 3 wheels, I'm happy. This comment really scares me.


"In some ways, the entire fiasco has been grossly offensive. There are, quite literally, thousands dead in an active war zone only a few thousand miles from Finland--and gamers are acting as if their worlds have ended. THAT is the context. The response from many in the community has been gross and offensive, and totally out of proportion to the world in which we presently live."
Other truly senseless rhetoric and comments, bringing up serious and serious arguments that have nothing to do with a video game context. What does it mean that there is a war "near" Finland? So the world stops? Every day there is a mourning for something then the world stops? There is a war in another nation so this blocks the work of the CS2 programmers, but also of all the programmers of all the other video games in the world, in fact in this period all painful games have been released...ahuuhauha once again I have no words, a DISTURBING concept.



"Speaking as an enthusiast who has actually been playing the game (760+ hours) on a machine that can handle it, I haven't experienced the problems that you claim don't, "bode well," for our shared future. The vanilla CS2 experience is objectively superior to the vanilla CS1 experience--and the CS2 vanilla experience is on par with CS1 modded play. Every time I try going back to CS1 (those custom maps are irresistible at times), I'm stunned by how clunky the mechanics feel compared to CS2 (and waiting for it to load... even with the load screen mod? SHEESH!)."
I also have a high-performance PC, but although the vanilla game is certainly smoother and has fewer problems than CS1, it still has some important defects and shortcomings. It also seems normal to me that after years of accumulated experience, with better work tools, with an increased number of personnel, this vanilla game is superior to vanilla CS1, so I don't think it's something to particularly boast about, if anything it's a very normal thing. Indeed, in some things, such as road texture, CS1 is superior to CS2... just a small graphic example.



"Is any game perfect on release? No ... has this company sustained a good faith effort to improve the game, despite the rancor and harassment and toxicity they've received? YES. What worries me as a player who is ENJOYING this game is that, at some point, due to all the angry and gross behavior from others in the community, someone at PDXCO is going to decide to throw in the towel. And then those of us who HAVE enjoyed this game will be stuck--because others in this community have lacked a mature and sober perspective."
This comment contains everything why this game will potentially never improve, but luckily there was the reaction to the "Beach properties" DLC which rebalanced things by calling it one of the worst DLCs ever in history (and those reviews are not I did them all). Isn't there a perfect game upon release? Probably not, but this should not be an excuse, it cannot be considered normal. Has this company made an effort...? WOOOOOW and thank goodness, imagine if he hadn't done it, after everything that was done and after all the proceeds it seems like the minimum to me...P.S.: we haven't seen the results of this effort yet, maybe you have a another game in hand. But the most worrying thing, as I said before, is the FEAR that due to legitimate criticism the development of the game will be blocked because the developers will be offended... This encompasses everything, the worst comment that could be made. A monstrous and demeaning servility. Don't worry, nothing will block at all, because this game with all the DLC that can be done is a gold mine, especially if there are people like you who are SCARED. However, you will definitely have what was expected in the Deluxe Edition, I can reassure you about that, since they are obliged to give you those things since you paid and bought those products, otherwise it would be a scam.




"When someone else speaks from an experience that doesn't correspond with yours, your answer is to insult them? Please, you may not like the plain fact that others are enjoying this game. But you are absolutely not entitled to attack and harass them relentlessly online for speaking their point of view."
I'm sorry for you but I didn't insult or harass anyone, I just expressed my views and opinions. Maybe if I reread your comments and your way of thinking I might find an insult to my intelligence and that of other users who don't think like you, those are indeed intellectual insults.





I hope this comment doesn't get deleted.
 
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[...] "Beach properties" DLC [...] calling it one of the worst DLCs ever in history [...]
It was rated as THE worst DLC ever on Steam. IMHO, it was probably not the worst ever, but given the surrounding context, it probably deserved it. It has had a very healthy impact on PDX, and we have seen direct effects on several (non-)releases. I am not sure what impact it will have on CS2 and CO, but it was a good wake-up call for the PDX brand, which produces a lot of games I love.

I hope it also had an impact on CO and that this patch delivers. I would have expected to see a lot more, but hopefully, there are a lot of bug fixes along with the economy changes, which they won't talk about until they "freeze" the patch.

Also, on the "CS2 is much better than CS1", while there is some improvement, we must remember that CS1 has nearly three times as many players as CS2 (I just checked on Steam Charts). I respect that some people feel that CS2 is vastly superior to CS1, but the numbers tell a different story. It would be very unhealthy for the devs and the community to pretend this is not happening. Fixing this should be the absolute priority. CS2 seems to have sold so many more copies than CS1; it should not be like this. I don't think the community and long-term fans wanted to be disappointed by the game.

I hope they deliver on this patch and set things on the right track.
 
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The response from many in the community has been gross and offensive, and totally out of proportion to the world in which we presently live.
Gamers engaging in hyperbole? Whatever next?

More seriously, I mostly agree, the reactions to the release of this game have been over the top. I think, at least some of it initially, was to do with the fact that there's not really any other "real" city building game, so people saw it as potentially the death of the entire genre. I'm nowhere near that level of pessimistic, mind you.

And regardless of anything else, the worst DLC ever was the infamous Horse Armour one from the Elder Scrolls.
 
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It was rated as THE worst DLC ever on Steam. IMHO, it was probably not the worst ever, but given the surrounding context, it probably deserved it.
No, it didn't. It was poor value but that's paltry in the history of truly bad DLCs. When people bang on about it they're really just pointing to the outcome of a successful review bombing campaign. It's not the same and people should stop saying it like it means something.
 
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Would love to be able to see the service area for buildings when I plop them. Something like when you see the network strength when you're plopping a network tower.
Technically most of them are city-wide unless locked to districts. But then most of them have a "service coverage" overlay on the streets. Best seen in small parks, they have a tiny reach.
It would be nice to show the wind speed/direction and existing ground pollution as I am plopping down assets that pollute.
You can turn on any overlay while constructing, but yeah it would be nice to see it included in zoning mode.
And please add a "Pause the game immediately when traffic accidents occurred!" toggle option!
Believe me you'd hate that in any city bigger than several dozen thousands citizens. Accidents happen every few ingame minutes, the game pausing every few IRL seconds would drive me mad.
Clicking on the Quick Pan action button will immediately pan our camera towards the location of where the traffic accident will about to start occurring.
Problem: the notification happens after the accident occured, not before lol. Why would it happen before? City services have a gift of foresight?
Let the players figure out what to do about the accident location and improve from there.
Phah. Most accidents happen on straight roads.
Everyone seems optimistic about the patch :D, ffs
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shootings
Welcome to America. What about Europe and other civilized nations?
 
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Phah. Most accidents happen on straight roads.
Which doesn’t make sense. In real life most crashes happen at intersections where many different vehicle paths conflict with each other.

I’d love if someone was able to create a mod that would increase the probability of a crash as a function of the number of crossing vehicle paths at an intersection node and decrease the probability of a crash on straight road segments.
 
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Which doesn’t make sense. In real life most crashes happen at intersections where many different vehicle paths conflict with each other.

I’d love if someone was able to create a mod that would increase the probability of a crash as a function of the number of crossing vehicle paths at an intersection node and decrease the probability of a crash on straight road segments.
All the accidents are a "loss of control" kind of thing, as in, a car gets a little sideways physics nudge, loses traction and the momentum takes it from there. Anything that's on the path of sliding vehicle is doomed. On a minor road it may mean some parked vehicles are hit, on a motorway, either the vehicle in question slides off into the grass/field/river/whatever, or creates carnage on the other side of the road as it hits the opposite traffic.
 
Let the players figure out what to do about the accident location and improve from there.
There's nothing to improve since accidents happen randomly with more chance to occur on busy and wet roads. Road and intersection configuration doesn't play any role.
Which doesn’t make sense. In real life most crashes happen at intersections where many different vehicle paths conflict with each other.

I’d love if someone was able to create a mod that would increase the probability of a crash as a function of the number of crossing vehicle paths at an intersection node and decrease the probability of a crash on straight road segments.
Put this into suggestions
 
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There are human beings behind the game, not just the company. Everyone has the right to make mistakes, it is surely very difficult to return to the correct path. I'm equally frustrated, but let's let them work.
 
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Neither does doomerism.
Doomerism? o_O

Haha. Your defining of my "don't be overly optimistic" quote to doomerism (whatever that means) means your in denialism.

There are human beings behind the game, not just the company. Everyone has the right to make mistakes, it is surely very difficult to return to the correct path. I'm equally frustrated, but let's let them work.

True. I asked for a refund and it wasn't granted. There are also human beings working everyday for their pay checks so the honourable thing to have done was to admit that mistakes were made with refunds.
 
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"Are there any issues you’ve struggled to solve in your city?" Yes @co_avanya - funny you should ask.

I call it "Lane Change Disorder" and it's been creating a mess of traffic since the release of the game.

I have a bug report on it here (link) from Dec 6. 2023, but the dev's don't seem to give it any attention.

I stopped playing for several months, hoping you would fix it. But as I gave the game a new shot yesterday I even saw it happen on a built-in highway intersection, on tiles I don't own.

Cars in the city has no feel for on- or offramps so they always make a mess behind them while changing lanes before on- or offramps.

I hope you can bring it to their attention.
 
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