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EU4 - Development Diary - 16th of January 2018

Hello everyone!


I am Trin Tragula and this is the first development diary for Update 1.25 - REDACTED. Some of you may know me from previous diaries that have dealt with research, the historical setup and most of all map changes to various regions. This time is no different, I am here to tell you about a region that has received more work in the, as of yet unnamed, update that we are currently working on.


The region around the English channel has been revised before, both in Update 1.12 (Low countries) and 1.16 (France and the British Isles). Still there were some issues with it and detail is lacking a bit when compared to some more recently revised regions like Scandinavia or Hungary (also originally revised in the same update but later updated). For 1.25 it was therefore time to once again focus on overhauling this part of Europe.

As we plan to do in all future regional updates we have also added new texts to the startup screen for interesting countries that lack them in the overhauled region.


Ireland

Ireland.png



While Ireland has long been an English subject on paper the actual authority of the crown was in many ways a legal fiction in 1444. In practice direct English rule has collapsed and does not extend beyond the small piece of land known as the “The Pale” around Dublin.

While the particulars vary the Anglo-Norman earls, peers under the English kings, are in practice independent by most definitions of the word and have become as Irish as the population the govern.

Receding English influence has also allowed many of the older Gaelic clans to thrive and the island is home to several strong Irish kingdoms.

With the English Kings preoccupied with the Hundred Years war in France and internal squabbles over even their own succession the Irish independence seems destined to last. Should England manage to stabilize and be able to focus on the Emerald Isle once again however they risk losing this freedom quickly. Even so Ireland would likely be an unruly region to control.


In the 1.25 update we hope to better show how the various minor states in Ireland thrived as English rule grew weaker and weaker. We hope the new setup will better show how diverse the Island was and offer the player to lead one of the many clans or earldoms of Ireland to perhaps put up a stronger resistance to the English threat or fail and at best hope to rule as an English vassal.

All Irish tags (new and old) will be given individual national ideas, and the old group set will be repurposed (and partly rewritten) to be a reward for uniting the Island.


Playable Tags in Ireland:

  • Munster (New) - Independent Irish Kingdom
    • This tag represents the MacCarthy Mor, leader of the MacCarthys and the hereditary Gaelic Kings of Desmond. Named Munster to avoid confusion with the Earls of Desmond.
  • Ormond (New) - Independent Irish Earldom
    • In 1444 this tag represents the Butler family, the earls of Ormond.
  • Offaly (New) - Independent Irish Kingdom
    • Central Ireland was divided between many minor clans in 1444, most of them Gaelic. When it later fell to English conquest this is one of the primary regions subject to English settlement. In 1444 in EU4 this province is ruled by the Faly O’Connors, but they were really just one of many minor clans in this region.
  • Tyrconnell (New) - Independent Kingdom
    • The O’Donnel kings of Tyrconnell are another native dynasty to Ireland with roots going hundreds of years back.
  • Leinster (Old) - Independent Kingdom
    • In 1444 the Kingdom of Leinster is ruled by the Kavanagh dynasty since the 12th century (the kingdom itself dating many hundred years further back). While close to the Pale Leinster has a history of strong opposition to the English crown and has often been a force beyond its size in Ireland.
  • Clanricarde (Old) - Independent Earldom
    • Another Anglo-Norman dynasty the Burke family rules their part of Ireland in the name of the English king. In practice however they are just as independent as their neighbors and are.
  • Kildare (Old) - Independent Earldom
    • Much like other parts of Ireland the FitzGerald Earls of Kildare are for practical purposes rulers of their own lands but their close proximity to the Pale means they have a closer relationship with the crown and they have often worked more closely with the king.
  • Thomond (Old) - Independent Kingdom
    • The Kingdom of Thomond remains one of the most independent Gaelic kingdoms on Ireland in 1444. Far from the direct reach of the English crown their problems are more related to their immediate neighbors than a distant king.
  • Sligo (Old) - Independent Kingdom
    • In 1444 Sligo is ruled by the Sligo O’Connors. Much like the Faly O’Connors their hold over the region was not as absolute as we show it in the game.
  • Desmond (Old) - Independent Earldom
    • The Earldom of Desmond (not to be confused with the Kingdom of Desmond, a tag we call Munster) rules the richer parts of south-eastern Ireland. Their ties with the crown are not as close as those of their kinsmen in Kildare.
  • Tyrone (Old) - Independent Kingdom
  • The dominant Gaelic kingdom in the north Tyrone is ruled by the ancient O' Niell dynasty. Tyrone was for a long time the most dominant state in the north.
  • Ulster (Old) - Independent State
  • In 1444 this province was home to a larger number of clans, many with close ties to their Scottish counterpart. In EU4 it is ruled by the Maggenis dynasty.

Scotland

Scotland.png


In 1444 Scotland remains a strong regional kingdom, supported by the King’s of France in the south. While the Clans remain influential in Scottish politics, and would likely assert their independence if they felt it threatened, the Kingdom is unified in a way the Irish lords could only dream of. During their time on the throne the Stuarts have strengthened their rule and their defences against the English to the south, while hungrily biding their time to reclaim the last remains of Norse rule in the form of the Norwegian Jarldom of Orkney in the north.

Scotland has not received any new playable country tags in the 1.25 update but the region has been broken up into more provinces to give the Scottish kingdom a bit more depth and staying power. In the South two provinces have been carved out to show that the Anglo-Scottish border is in fact not flat and hard to defend. The addition of the West and East March provinces instead allows Scotland to fight an invader before they reach the farmlands around the capital
The Highlands have also been broken up, ensuring that a resurgent Highlander kingdom will be stronger and stand a better chance of surviving.


England & Wales

England.png


While England was updated once before after release we felt that it was simply not up to date with regions like Denmark or Germany, and that it was too easy to overrun the island of Great Britain for a naval invader. England is arguably one of the historical winners of this period and while England never saw much in the way of foreign invasion it was the scene of two great civil wars.

In update 1.25 England and Wales have been given a thorough rework with many provinces carved out of the existing ones or redrawn to better reflect both the political and economic realities of the time. The Isle of Man has also been made its own province, a naval base in the Irish sea for whoever manages to get control of it.


Added Tags:
  • Mann - Revolter in the Isle of Man province.
    • In 1444 the Isle of Man is an English possession but it was once a kingdom of its own with roots in the now defunct Kingdom of the Isles.


France & Burgundy

France.png


Another “winner” in our timeline was France. The great kingdom that dominated European politics for centuries before imploding to internal unrest and rising reborn as the Revolutionary Empire of Napoleon, ready to reshape the politics of the continent completely.

In 1444 France is the scene of the Hundred Years war, a long conflict over who would rule the populous lands of the Kingdom. The recently concluded treaty of Tours has seemingly restored peace to the region but its stipulations have yet to be carried out in their entirety as England seem reluctant to surrender Maine to the French king.

The 1.25 update have not brought any new countries into being in France but we have revised the French map, especially in the north.

Normandy and the region around Paris are now more detailed, allowing for a less one-sided early campaign between England and France once conflict flares up again. We have also taken the opportunity to shift some of the French development towards the more populated north to better represent the historical economy of the region.

The huge province of Bourgogne has also been broken up to represent the Burgundian border castles such as Semur, with their capital in Dijon receiving an Inland Centre of Trade.


The Low Countries

Low Countries.png


In 1444 the Low Countries are already one of the greatest economic centers of the European continent. Politically many of the states are dominated by the Dukes of Burgundy but under their rule they enjoy considerable autonomy and in time the northern parts would historically form the United Provinces of the Netherlands, an iconic power in the Europa Universalis timeline and a great mercantile and colonial power.

We have felt that when this region was last revisited it was perhaps done so a bit conservatively and this time we have been less concerned with keeping the status quo.

The province of Holland has been broken in two, as has Gelre and Friesland. The Province of Limburg (forever plagued by trying to accomodate the fact that the majority of the county of Limburg would become separated from the city itself in this timeline) has been removed entirely in favor of a separate province for Upper Guelders. The borders have also been redrawn to hopefully better reflect the many border changes in this region during this period in history.

While the development of the Low Countries region was always high (indeed even in 1.24 it is higher than all of England) it has been increased slightly again to better reflect the economic power of these cities. Utrecht, Friesland, Gelre and Holland have all grown by one province each while Brabant, though it remains a powerful force in the region, has lost both a province and a sizable amount of development.



That was all for today! From Ireland to Burgundy we hope that this overhaul will make for a better experience and that it will also make for a more accurate representation of this central region to the developments of the 1444-1820 period.

Next week’s developer diary will be written by @DDRJake and should shed some more light on what kind of update we are making as well as the upcoming Immersion Pack that will go along with it.
 
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Well, Blue Iberia for 2-3 months incoming...
 
Hopefully we'll see an 1800 Act of Union decision with this. Can't stand to have the wrong flag in the revolutionary period
 
Considering the issue of the two Desmonds, what if the earldom were to be renamed Denbigh? The title Earl of Desmond was held with the title Earl of Denbigh. Admittedly, Denbighshire is in Wales but it avoids naming any of the realms Munster.

EDIT: Nevermind, forgot that the Earldom of Denbigh was only created later.
 
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Is that a 1444 Bordergore down in the Low Countries? Goddamnit people, somebody please think of the borders!
 
How will the new northern English provinces affect the Scottish mission to increase the frontier? (or whatever the mission is called)
 
I think Paradox forgot about the Dutch invasion of 1688.

21.000 Dutch soldiers on 500 ships (4 times the size of the Spanish Armada) invaded England under false pretences ('they were invited') to put their Stadtholder William III on the English throne and to prevent another Anglo-French catholic alliance against the Dutch (like in 1672).
London was occupied by Dutch soldiers for three years, no English regiments where allowed within 20 miles.
The Dutch army fought the English king al the way up in Northern Ireland. Thats why you have those Orangemen over there.

Civil wars usually aren't fought between invading armies and domestic ones. That the English try to omit these events from their historical narrative is their choice, but the facts are there for everyone to check.
The Williamites are the rightful heirs to the throne
 
You *finally* added Groningen! <3
 
I hope this will also mean that the Parliament mechanics will get some more love, because right now it's a bit... dull. And highly unrealistic because the Parliament always considers more than one bills in any years, yet once debate is concluded, it will not happen again until like 5 years later. But I imagine it's mainly due to game balance reasons, because every debate will give some kind of modifiers at successful conclusion.

I would say the parliament mechanics is in a need of major overhaul to better reflect the actual institution it meant to portray. One of my suggestions would be remodel it based on the mechanics of the city council in Urban Empire to make it more interesting. And, of course, there should be political factions in late EU4 timeframe, especially after the English Civil War (after which Whigs and Tories comes into existence following the Restoration).

While purely eye candy and not vital, I wouldn't also mind having chamber displayed in the upper portion of the parliament window similar to the images displayed in Ages windows. Maybe it could also reflect the wealth of the country, chamber evolving from quite simple chamber to more elegant chamber.

Furthermore, Parliament were NOT unicameral, having two houses, one for Lords and one for Commons. However, I don't know how to represent this without making it a pain of micromanagement trying to pass debates in both houses or something.

There should also be interactions between the Parliament and the Estates that lobbies them. Adding further to the political dimensions would be the trade companies, especially ones with largest number of possessions (e.g. Indian trade companies, although I would prefer there be just one for entire India but I suspect it's mainly split up because of multiple trade regions).

And I would LOVE to see the Glorious Revolution in this game... it's one of the most fundamental turning point in the English constitutional history that permanently put it on the course towards the modern constitutional monarchy. Oh, yes, and the Cabinet! Although, I'm not sure how to work that with the advisors... at any rate, having 3 advisors in late EU4 period is pretty much very implausible given the expanding bureaucracy in that time.

General elections, while not important before 1660s, should become more prominent and represented by events as I have done in my (currently outdated) parliamentary election mod and tied in with political factions as I mentioned.

Etc. Etc. You get the idea.
 
Ok. Then:
- Ireland is going to have 12 tags and 13 provinces because their early history of warring clans.
- There are some hints that all these provinces for France and Britain mean also more love for Iberia and maybe even a Spain thematic DLC.

So are also Spanish-Portuguese Americas going to get more love, events, provinces and tags?

Why that? you can ask, well because:
Some numbers (from wikipedia, I know is not the best pr proper source but as far as I remember the number are good enough to give a broad idea).

>> 1500
There ara lot of controversy about the population of the Americas prior of european contact, but something that everybody agrees is that Mesoamerica was the more densely populated and best know region (I remember even something between 1/4 to 1/5 of all Americas population in a region with less that 1/20 of the continet area), so one low number like 10 millions for all Mesoamerica can be safe. VS Ireland that is around 1/10 of the current playable mesoamerica region ( I wonder why we cant play the Huastec, Chichimec and Mangue zones), and Ireland was around 1 million.

>> 1800
We can argue that by 1800 the Population of New Spain, USA and Ireland were all ~ 5.5 millions, so we can said that the density justiify the number of provinces in Ireland vs America? Not really, because then we must add 200 or more provinces in China and India.
The justification for more tags and provinces in Ireland is their history before English conquest, so the same can be said about Mexico, even if by 1600 the population losss was of 50-80%.

Now, the game already give ous the 1444 date and El Dorado have the mechanics to change history, so why a Mesoamerican nation that conquered half Europe by 1800 should have less provinces in their homeland that one conquered region that started with the same development?

So as far as we know it gonna be 44 vs 13 provinces and 12 vs 12 tags, for two regions that in the low counts were of similar density, and since Mesoamerica was way more diverse in terrain, biomes, cultures and states. Is that OK?

I mean we cant spect to have the same level of provinces in each region, population density, diversity, fragmentation of the sovereignty in each region, etc. And there are obvious reasons of why we have a more detailed Japan of Germany. But if Ireland is going to have this degree of detail, I am sure at least Mesoamerica-New Spain deserve more provinces and tags.

Actualy Im NOT asking for the same proportion of provinces that Ireland (that I think it gonna be unjustified detailed in comparison to almost all the world),I just want a few more love for Iberian America, like add at least Chichimec, Huastec and Mangue Tags in Mesoamerica. Also add some provinces not based just in the precolombine history of the region, for example after population loss some of the regions of New Spain with faster repopulation were Zacatecas, San Luis, Aguascalientes, Los Altos de Jalisco, etc. Provinces out of the core Mesoamerica, so 3-5 provinces in that zone are part of the history of Spain. I mean the history of iberian Americas is NOT just the conquest of Aztecs and Incas, there are other 300 years of history. And both Spain and Brazil need theirs "colonial muscles" to fight their european rivals.

Greetings!
 
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Ireland - perfect! Amazed to see all those small clans.
England - nearly perfect! For the very perfection would split Norfolk into Norfolk & Suffolk since East Anglia was most urbanistic and advanced region of England those times (unlike nowadays) & maybe few more inland provinces here and there. Nevertheless had no illusions until today that we'll be heading towards such small & detailed provinces.
Wales - awesome!
Scotland - weird!!! I don't know how it's possible not to find space for Lanarkshire & Glasgow in 11 province Scotland with half of those 11 provinces being very low profile provinces, but seems it's possible.
Low Countries - nice, but.. Still only 2 provinces for Flanders? Flanders which is full of high profile cities and was economic center of Low Countries & probably all the North? Common.. It should get more detailed and higher development compared to rest of Low Countries one day.
France - nice, but there could have been done much more..

Anyways nice to see changes.
 
Shouldn't Normandy and Aquitaine be vassals of England? I'm not entirely sure...
EDIT: Also Wales as well.
Aquitaine would be more accurate as a PU, Normandy is fine under direct control (they didn't have the title Duke of Normandy anymore). Wales is difficult, honestly I feel it's better to represent it in a simplified way as part of England unless it's possible for the ruler of a subject to be the heir of its overlord, otherwise a PU I guess, but then it risks being lost. There is also the fact that the Principality of Wales did not cover the entirety of Wales; various regions were controlled directly by various Marcher Lords.
 
Ok. Then:
- Ireland is going to have 12 tags and 13 provinces because their early history of warring clans.
- There are some hints that all these provinces for France and Britain mean also more love for Iberia and maybe even a Spain thematic DLC.

So are also Spanish-Portuguese Americas going to get more love, events, provinces and tags?

Why that? you can ask, well because:
Some numbers (from wikipedia, I know is not the best pr proper source but as far as I remember the number are good enough to give a broad idea).

>> 1500
There ara lot of controversy about the population of the Americas prior of european contact, but something that everybody agrees is that Mesoamerica was the more densely populated and best know region (I remember even something between 1/4 to 1/5 of all Americas population in a region with less that 1/20 of the continet area), so one low number like 10 millions for all Mesoamerica can be safe. VS Ireland that is around 1/10 of the current playable mesoamerica region ( I wonder why we cant play the Huastec, Chichimec and Mangue zones), and Ireland was around 1 million.

>> 1800
We can argue that by 1800 the Population of New Spain, USA and Ireland were all ~ 5.5 millions, so we can said that the density justiify the number of provinces in Ireland vs America? Not really, because then we must add 200 or more provinces in China and India.
The justification for more tags and provinces in Ireland is their history before English conquest, so the same can be said about Mexico, even if by 1600 the population losss was of 50-80%.

Now, the game already give ous the 1444 date and El Dorado have the mechanics to change history, so why a Mesoamerican nation that conquered half Europe by 1800 should have less provinces in their homeland that one conquered region that started with the same development?

So as far as we know it gonna be 44 vs 13 provinces and 12 vs 12 tags, for two regions that in the low counts were of similar density, and since Mesoamerica was way more diverse in terrain, biomes, cultures and states. Is that OK?

I mean we cant spect to have the same level of provinces in each region, population density, diversity, fragmentation of the sovereignty in each region, etc. And there are obvious reasons of why we have a more detailed Japan of Germany. But if Ireland is going to have this degree of detail, I am sure at least Mesoamerica-New Spain deserve more provinces and tags.

Actualy Im NOT asking for the same proportion of provinces that Ireland (that I think it gonna be unjustified detailed in comparison to almost all the world),I just want a few more love for Iberian America, like add at least Chichimec, Huastec and Mangue Tags in Mesoamerica. Also add some provinces not based just in the precolombine history of the region, for example after population loss some of the regions of New Spain with faster repopulation were Zacatecas, San Luis, Aguascalientes, Los Altos de Jalisco, etc. Provinces out of the core Mesoamerica, so 3-5 provinces in that zone are part of the history of Spain. I mean the history of iberian Americas is NOT just the conquest of Aztecs and Incas, there are other 300 years of history. And both Spain and Brazil need theirs "colonial muscles" to fight their european rivals.

Greetings!

No changes to Iberia confirmed by a dev.

Though I expect some overhaul to either navies trade companies and or colonies which will help Spain and Portugal indirectly
 
What an update! The regions here altered have been in need of a rework for some time; and boy does this look good. Really looking forward to campaigning in these new areas; looks amazing (y)
 
Rich doesn't mean you have plenty of population. Venice and Genoa were probably not wealthier than France or the HRE combined, they just had a "Higher wealth density" compared to their size.
Development is said by the devs to not represent population, but it certainly does : it influences manpower, tax raising and sailor supply. So it certainly is not tied to wealth only, but rather to an abstract synthesis of both wealth and population.
Thus, I find it logical that huge powers like France, Italy or HRE, with their respective 15, 12 and 11 million inhabitants, and Spain with their 8 millions, are considered great powers instead of Genoa and Venice, which had both less than a million inhabitant

I agree though, that Europe could be less developed in 1444, and have its development increase more quickly with buildings and institutions during the period, to slowly catch up much denser populated areas like India or China, which had kingdoms and empires certainly as wealthy in 1444, and with population counted by dozens of millions (100+ million for Ming)
If you summed up all the wealth of all the nobles of france or the HRE certainly but that is totally irrelevant, the government in venice and genoa is far richer than the "government" of these kingdoms because their wealth is scattered across hundreds of noble families each essentially a state of their own, while in genoa and venice the state is the state and personal wealth is personal. And the state is far far richer.
And wealth and population is pretty much what development is. And in 1444 England has neither compared to other powers globally. France might be a great power (but I still feel that is has less cause to be so in 1444 than genoa and vencie) spain once the union forms certainly is one, working as intended, and Italy and the HRE aren't united countries in 1444 so them being great powers is not really relevant.
My main point is that england should not be a great power in 1444 and there should be a lot fewer European powers in that list at all. Oh and it should take wealth into account not just size.

That's actually a good thing. The Estates were meant to represent that, just like they do for many other countries which also had vassals of their own which are not represented in game. French vassals are still releasable if the French king doesn't behave well.
What I am disappointed about, however, is that Estates got so quickly forgotten in future DLC and updates, while they could have proven a much deeper experience for inner country management.
That, and a centralization mechanic, which would require passing laws (like Conclave DLC for CK2) in order to decrease Estates privileges and autonomy in their owned provinces; would ensure that France truly is the "sleeping monster" it was, with its 15 million inhabitants during the 15th century. But we may sadly never see a DLC focusing on peace time and internal management, despite it being long requested
The estates may have been meant to represent that but they don't on account that they are really weak.

Shouldn't Normandy and Aquitaine be vassals of England? I'm not entirely sure...
EDIT: Also Wales as well.
Would be nice. Though personal unions rather than vassals, also only wales and aquitaine, normandy was more english heartlands than england itself. If Wales is a PU it should have the English culture too but get an event where it shifts primary culture to welsh if it is independent.
 
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