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EU4 - Development Diary - 18th of June 2019

Hello and good morning. Today we will finally unveil our long-anticipated changes to the map and political setup of the Balkans, as well as taking a look at Austria. This will be our final dev diary on map changes for the European update.

As befits the fragmented nature of the Balkans, today’s dev diary will be divided into three parts, each written by a member of the Content Design team who personally worked on each region.

dd_greece.png


I’ll begin with my own work on Greece and Bulgaria. You’ll notice that province density has noticeably increased, but rest assured we have taken care to avoid adding a net development boost to the Ottomans. We feel that their current level of development makes them a sufficiently powerful force, and any further advantages would harm the experience for players in their vicinity.

We’ve split the Bulgaria area in two, with most of Bulgaria remaining in “Bulgaria” but with the east in the new Silistria area. Bulgaria in total has gained 3 new provinces: Tolcu, split from Silistre, allows for a more accurate Ottoman-Moldavian border. Tirnovo, once a major cultural, military, and economic center for the Bulgarian Empire, declined under Ottoman rule but remained a thorn in the side of the Turks as it was a hotbed for Bulgarian resistance. Finally, Kyustendil/Kostendil was the center of an Ottoman sanjak and an exploitable mining site.

Thrace and Macedonia have also been updated with new provinces. Edirne has lost its access to the sea to the new province of Gelibolu/Gallipoli, home to a mighty fortress and naval arsenal. Parts of the former Edirne have also been added to the new Gumulcine province. Lastly, Selanik is now confined to the area around the city of Thessaloniki, as Siroz now occupies the outer reaches.

Moving down into Greece proper, a new nation has appeared while another is notable by its absence. Epirus, with its capital in the new province of Arta, is ruled by the Tocco dynasty who for whatever reason were previously represented as the rulers of the Venetian vassal-state of Corfu. Corfu no longer exists in 1444, but it retains its core on the island. Epirus also rules the island of Cephalonia, which has been separated from the Corfu province and gives Epirus the ability to produce wine. Fans of Byzantium will be pleased to hear that they now possess an additional province at the start of the game, based around the historic city of Corinth. And in the Aegean Sea, Lesbos has been split from Scio - Lesbos has a strait connection to Biga while Scio connects to Sugla.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dd_austria.jpg


I'm @Caligula Caesar, and I'm here to tell you about our changes to Austria. Now, some of you may be aware that there is a good case for splitting Austria in three at the start of the game and requiring them to unify their territories. However, as a team we elected NOT to do this. Our reasoning is simple: For an enjoyable and challenging game on continental Europe, it is necessary for there to be a strong Austria. As Austria is already one of the more vulnerable superpowers in the early game, making their starting position significantly weaker by reducing their directly held territories by 2/3 would simply not make a better game experience.

We felt that Austria's starting development was fine as it was, but its province density was not quite at the level we wanted, so we added some new provinces by splitting existing provinces' development. As we have already shown, Tirol was split between Inntal and Etschtal and South Tirol became Trent, now an independent tag; also, some impassable mountains were added between Tirol and Venetia. Moving east, we split Kärnten in two between Oberkärnten/Villach and Unterkärnten/Klagenfurt. In the north, Linz's province (now known as Oberenns) was reshaped significantly and room was made for Traungau (with the significant ironworking town of Steyr as its capital) to the south of it. Wien province, too, has been split, with Wienerwald/Sankt Pölten taking its place to the west.

Finally, in the south, we added the Slovene culture. This culture is present in Görz, Krain and Celje. The last of those is owned by a new tag, the Counts of Cilli - known by their German name as its rulers were the German von Cilli family (the tag itself retains Slovene culture, however, and has some dynamic province names for surrounding areas).

Now on to @Ofaloaf 's work on the Western Balkans:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dd_serbia.jpg


This work owes a tremendous amount to @otaats and his suggestions in Serbia & friends, which (in a truncated form) served as an inspiration. I also want to give a shoutout to @Wokeg, whose enthusiasm for the region and its history has been an excellent inspiration and motivation.

Most of the mapwork simply provides greater provincial fidelity, but there are some significant changes and additions. Starting with the smaller stuff, Venetian holdings along the Adriatic coast are better defined, with old Dalmatian province now split between Zara and Spalato and Cattaro now spun off from the province of Zeta. Albania also gets a second province, Krüje, which was one of the strongholds of the Albanian ruler Skanderbeg. Fortified and mountainous, Krüje should be a real pain to crack early in the game.

One of the most major additions to the region is the inclusion of Herzegovina. It's a relatively new state in 1444, being largely the creation of Stjepan Vukčić, who inherited those lands in 1435. Stjepan was an incredibly ambitious nobleman who took on the title of herceg (borrowed from German herzog) and ruled a portion of the Kingdom of Bosnia as a de facto independent realm called the Duchy of Saint Sava, which is the name its contemporaries knew it as. While Stjepan had the chops for independent rule, his sons weren't quite as canny, and in 1483 the realm was conquered by advancing Ottoman forces. However, Stjepan's title, herceg, lived on in the Ottoman name for the territory, and this eventually became the name Herzegovina, which is what we know the area now as and, for the sake of familiarity, the name which the realm (and its capital province) is called in-game.

You may have also noticed that Croatia is now present on the map. It starts in a union under Hungary, and depending on Hungarian fortunes may now either break away in one fell swoop or be more firmly incorporated into the Crown of St. Stephen. While the inclusion of Croatia does provide some interesting opportunities for Hungarian expansion or wresting parts of the Hungarian domain away from Budapest, the inclusion of Croatia as a separate entity has called for a little historical fudging. Rule of Croatia and Slavonia was split in 1444, although the two entities were ruled by Croatian brothers at the time of the Grand Campaign, and the titles would be merged together into a united Banate in 1476. To prevent Hungarian diplomatic relations from being eaten up by subjects and give it a slightly more powerful vassal to keep in check, Croatia here is unified slightly early.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you all for reading this and our other map-based dev diaries, it’s been a pleasure to present our work to you and to read your feedback and ideas. Next week we will take a look at some of the new mission trees coming to this region - most likely Austria, one of the Balkan minors, and something you might not expect. We’ll also talk a little about the Hungarian succession. Until then, have a great week!
 
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should not the capital city of Albania be Krujë?
and as for the city of Lezhë it should be Venetian
In Middle Ages Lissus (then known as Alessio) frequently changed masters until the Venetians took possession of it in 1386. It still belonged to them when Skanderbeg died, but In 1478 it fell into the hands of Turks during the siege of Shkodra, with the exception of a short period (1501–1506) when it returned to Venetian domination. Because it was under the Venetian control, it was chosen in 1444 by George Castrioti (Skanderbeg) as a neutral place for the convention of Albanian, Serbian, Dalmatian and other lords of the area aiming at organizing their common defence against the Turks.
dd_greece.png
 
This is exactly the thing i have been asking for monthes. Why Rivalry between France and Austria, except to nerf those two countries?
Why no HR between Poles + Austria and Otto? That good nerf of Otto would be deserved and not game Breaking.

Honestly I'd rather just see such modifiers axed entirely myself. Historical Friends and Historical Rivals is just kind of a way to railroad a game that ultimately... isn't really about railroading. At least to me. Even Hearts of Iron would do things like have the "nightmare scenario" of the US/Germany Alliance allowable. And that's far more unlikely than the idea that over nearly 400 years of shifting political realities something might drive France and Austria together.
 
should not the capital city of Albania be Krujë?
and as for the city of Lezhë it should be Venetian
In Middle Ages Lissus (then known as Alessio) frequently changed masters until the Venetians took possession of it in 1386. It still belonged to them when Skanderbeg died, but In 1478 it fell into the hands of Turks during the siege of Shkodra, with the exception of a short period (1501–1506) when it returned to Venetian domination. Because it was under the Venetian control, it was chosen in 1444 by George Castrioti (Skanderbeg) as a neutral place for the convention of Albanian, Serbian, Dalmatian and other lords of the area aiming at organizing their common defence against the Turks.
It was indeed under Venetian control, but!

The League of Lezhë = the Albania tag. It was one of their more important cities, and of symbolical wealth. History is more complicated than a game could ever portray. Sovereignty and borders included. I think it's an acceptable abstraction.
 
Honestly, I think Bosnia was just another serbocroat state, like Travunia or Montenegro/Zeta.

But well, we have divided Spaniards, Germans or Italians into regional identities, so having a bosnian culture wouldn't be a drama, but it will result into a similar abstraction like transylvanian. The problem I see it's what will bosnian culture mean. A serbocroat mixture? A croatian subgroup? A serbian one? The bosniak muslims?

Honestly, I'd leave those lands as serb or croat, but I would include bosniak culture and 1 decission/event for Ottomans to convert some lands
 
Honestly, I think Bosnia was just another serbocroat state, like Travunia or Montenegro/Zeta.

But well, we have divided Spaniards, Germans or Italians into regional identities, so having a bosnian culture wouldn't be a drama, but it will result into a similar abstraction like transylvanian. The problem I see it's what will bosnian culture mean. A serbocroat mixture? A croatian subgroup? A serbian one? The bosniak muslims?

Honestly, I'd leave those lands as serb or croat, but I would include bosniak culture and 1 decission/event for Ottomans to convert some lands

The Italian flag makes this post extra ironic considering Italy and Germany are some of the least culturally united european countrys.
 
I can post you many texts about Catalonian separatists claiming to be special and unrelated to the rest of Spain.

These text don't make them cease to be Spaniards.

Bosnia could have a regional identity. Other regional identities are present in-game, so I don't really see the problem about having Bosnian culture, only the Bosniak muslims issue. But I prefer to not have it.
 
I can post you many texts about Catalonian separatists claiming to be special and unrelated to the rest of Spain.

These text don't make them cease to be Spaniards.

Bosnia could have a regional identity. Other regional identities are present in-game, so I don't really see the problem about having Bosnian culture, only the Bosniak muslims issue. But I prefer to not have it.
Are you the type of person who thinks tibetans are the same as chinese people while not knowing where tibet or china are on a map
 
Hello and good morning. Today we will finally unveil our long-anticipated changes to the map and political setup of the Balkans, as well as taking a look at Austria. This will be our final dev diary on map changes for the European update.

As befits the fragmented nature of the Balkans, today’s dev diary will be divided into three parts, each written by a member of the Content Design team who personally worked on each region.

View attachment 492412

I’ll begin with my own work on Greece and Bulgaria. You’ll notice that province density has noticeably increased, but rest assured we have taken care to avoid adding a net development boost to the Ottomans. We feel that their current level of development makes them a sufficiently powerful force, and any further advantages would harm the experience for players in their vicinity.

We’ve split the Bulgaria area in two, with most of Bulgaria remaining in “Bulgaria” but with the east in the new Silistria area. Bulgaria in total has gained 3 new provinces: Tolcu, split from Silistre, allows for a more accurate Ottoman-Moldavian border. Tirnovo, once a major cultural, military, and economic center for the Bulgarian Empire, declined under Ottoman rule but remained a thorn in the side of the Turks as it was a hotbed for Bulgarian resistance. Finally, Kyustendil/Kostendil was the center of an Ottoman sanjak and an exploitable mining site.

Thrace and Macedonia have also been updated with new provinces. Edirne has lost its access to the sea to the new province of Gelibolu/Gallipoli, home to a mighty fortress and naval arsenal. Parts of the former Edirne have also been added to the new Gumulcine province. Lastly, Selanik is now confined to the area around the city of Thessaloniki, as Siroz now occupies the outer reaches.

Moving down into Greece proper, a new nation has appeared while another is notable by its absence. Epirus, with its capital in the new province of Arta, is ruled by the Tocco dynasty who for whatever reason were previously represented as the rulers of the Venetian vassal-state of Corfu. Corfu no longer exists in 1444, but it retains its core on the island. Epirus also rules the island of Cephalonia, which has been separated from the Corfu province and gives Epirus the ability to produce wine. Fans of Byzantium will be pleased to hear that they now possess an additional province at the start of the game, based around the historic city of Corinth. And in the Aegean Sea, Lesbos has been split from Scio - Lesbos has a strait connection to Biga while Scio connects to Sugla.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

View attachment 492413

I'm @Caligula Caesar, and I'm here to tell you about our changes to Austria. Now, some of you may be aware that there is a good case for splitting Austria in three at the start of the game and requiring them to unify their territories. However, as a team we elected NOT to do this. Our reasoning is simple: For an enjoyable and challenging game on continental Europe, it is necessary for there to be a strong Austria. As Austria is already one of the more vulnerable superpowers in the early game, making their starting position significantly weaker by reducing their directly held territories by 2/3 would simply not make a better game experience.

We felt that Austria's starting development was fine as it was, but its province density was not quite at the level we wanted, so we added some new provinces by splitting existing provinces' development. As we have already shown, Tirol was split between Inntal and Etschtal and South Tirol became Trent, now an independent tag; also, some impassable mountains were added between Tirol and Venetia. Moving east, we split Kärnten in two between Oberkärnten/Villach and Unterkärnten/Klagenfurt. In the north, Linz's province (now known as Oberenns) was reshaped significantly and room was made for Traungau (with the significant ironworking town of Steyr as its capital) to the south of it. Wien province, too, has been split, with Wienerwald/Sankt Pölten taking its place to the west.

Finally, in the south, we added the Slovene culture. This culture is present in Görz, Krain and Celje. The last of those is owned by a new tag, the Counts of Cilli - known by their German name as its rulers were the German von Cilli family (the tag itself retains Slovene culture, however, and has some dynamic province names for surrounding areas).

Now on to @Ofaloaf 's work on the Western Balkans:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

View attachment 492414

This work owes a tremendous amount to @otaats and his suggestions in Serbia & friends, which (in a truncated form) served as an inspiration. I also want to give a shoutout to @Wokeg, whose enthusiasm for the region and its history has been an excellent inspiration and motivation.

Most of the mapwork simply provides greater provincial fidelity, but there are some significant changes and additions. Starting with the smaller stuff, Venetian holdings along the Adriatic coast are better defined, with old Dalmatian province now split between Zara and Spalato and Cattaro now spun off from the province of Zeta. Albania also gets a second province, Krüje, which was one of the strongholds of the Albanian ruler Skanderbeg. Fortified and mountainous, Krüje should be a real pain to crack early in the game.

One of the most major additions to the region is the inclusion of Herzegovina. It's a relatively new state in 1444, being largely the creation of Stjepan Vukčić, who inherited those lands in 1435. Stjepan was an incredibly ambitious nobleman who took on the title of herceg (borrowed from German herzog) and ruled a portion of the Kingdom of Bosnia as a de facto independent realm called the Duchy of Saint Sava, which is the name its contemporaries knew it as. While Stjepan had the chops for independent rule, his sons weren't quite as canny, and in 1483 the realm was conquered by advancing Ottoman forces. However, Stjepan's title, herceg, lived on in the Ottoman name for the territory, and this eventually became the name Herzegovina, which is what we know the area now as and, for the sake of familiarity, the name which the realm (and its capital province) is called in-game.

You may have also noticed that Croatia is now present on the map. It starts in a union under Hungary, and depending on Hungarian fortunes may now either break away in one fell swoop or be more firmly incorporated into the Crown of St. Stephen. While the inclusion of Croatia does provide some interesting opportunities for Hungarian expansion or wresting parts of the Hungarian domain away from Budapest, the inclusion of Croatia as a separate entity has called for a little historical fudging. Rule of Croatia and Slavonia was split in 1444, although the two entities were ruled by Croatian brothers at the time of the Grand Campaign, and the titles would be merged together into a united Banate in 1476. To prevent Hungarian diplomatic relations from being eaten up by subjects and give it a slightly more powerful vassal to keep in check, Croatia here is unified slightly early.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you all for reading this and our other map-based dev diaries, it’s been a pleasure to present our work to you and to read your feedback and ideas. Next week we will take a look at some of the new mission trees coming to this region - most likely Austria, one of the Balkan minors, and something you might not expect. We’ll also talk a little about the Hungarian succession. Until then, have a great week!


So are you guys going to fix the Croatia thing? Because now it is more like fantasy history since Croatia was part of Hungary during that period.
 
To all the people asking for a bosnian culture: Paradox historians disagree with you.

Remember how in EU3 and ealry EU4 Bosnia was depicted 100% serbian & orthodox christian? That was obvious hasty design as the balkans were never in focus. When the national ideas ideas for Bosnia were added, the devs had to do actual research on bosnian history. What did they do?

They realized their mistake and modified the culture to be correct: Donji Kraj changed to croatian catholic, Hum and Bosna changed to serbian catholic, and the tag changed to serbian catholic.

So there is your medieval "Bosnia", a transition region between Croatia and Serbia. Even in the ideas description, Paradox wrote that the Kotromanovic dynasty succesfully obtained recognition by the serbian orthodox church as the successors of the Nemanjics and the serbian kingdom.

Look at this ethnic map in 2013. Most of Bosnia is serbo-croation. Where do the come from? Do you think those people moved in after WW1? No, they were always there. They are all called bosnians and were living there since the 7-8th century, without much internal migration.

During pagan times, they were part of the serbian tribal confederacy. Once christinaity arrived, they aligned themselves culturaly to the newly formed kindgom of Croatia. No evidence of any internal conflicts. As Croatia fell to the hungarians, bosnians fell again under serbian influence. Numerous bogumils, pagans, and other people deemed 'heretics' by stefan Nemanja's inquisition settled in bosnia where they continued maintaing the old serbian culture. It is, therefore, no surprise that once romantic nationalism reached the balkans, most bosnians desired unification with Serbia or Croatia.

However, some bosnians adopted islam, and diverged from the old culture(s). This new nation didn't, and doesn't, want to share land with christian kafirs. The bosnians don't even want a nation of their own, as the territory where they form majority is quite small and separated intro 3 parts. They want an artificial nation where they can be the dominant class. This is why the people are brainwashed into thinking that mediveal Bosnia was anything more than just a region. They steal anything they possible can from serbian and croatian history to claim some sort of 'continuity'.

The fact they always ignore is that, any unique regional custom that may have existed in bosnian history, is a shared cultural heritage by all bosnians, not only the muslims. The christian bosnians have no problem identifying with serbo-croatia, hence the heritage belong to those countries as well.
 
To all the people asking for a bosnian culture: Paradox historians disagree with you.

Remember how in EU3 and ealry EU4 Bosnia was depicted 100% serbian & orthodox christian? That was obvious hasty design as the balkans were never in focus. When the national ideas ideas for Bosnia were added, the devs had to do actual research on bosnian history. What did they do?

They realized their mistake and modified the culture to be correct: Donji Kraj changed to croatian catholic, Hum and Bosna changed to serbian catholic, and the tag changed to serbian catholic.

So there is your medieval "Bosnia", a transition region between Croatia and Serbia. Even in the ideas description, Paradox wrote that the Kotromanovic dynasty succesfully obtained recognition by the serbian orthodox church as the successors of the Nemanjics and the serbian kingdom.

Look at this ethnic map in 2013. Most of Bosnia is serbo-croation. Where do the come from? Do you think those people moved in after WW1? No, they were always there. They are all called bosnians and were living there since the 7-8th century, without much internal migration.

During pagan times, they were part of the serbian tribal confederacy. Once christinaity arrived, they aligned themselves culturaly to the newly formed kindgom of Croatia. No evidence of any internal conflicts. As Croatia fell to the hungarians, bosnians fell again under serbian influence. Numerous bogumils, pagans, and other people deemed 'heretics' by stefan Nemanja's inquisition settled in bosnia where they continued maintaing the old serbian culture. It is, therefore, no surprise that once romantic nationalism reached the balkans, most bosnians desired unification with Serbia or Croatia.

However, some bosnians adopted islam, and diverged from the old culture(s). This new nation didn't, and doesn't, want to share land with christian kafirs. The bosnians don't even want a nation of their own, as the territory where they form majority is quite small and separated intro 3 parts. They want an artificial nation where they can be the dominant class. This is why the people are brainwashed into thinking that mediveal Bosnia was anything more than just a region. They steal anything they possible can from serbian and croatian history to claim some sort of 'continuity'.

The fact they always ignore is that, any unique regional custom that may have existed in bosnian history, is a shared cultural heritage by all bosnians, not only the muslims. The christian bosnians have no problem identifying with serbo-croatia, hence the heritage belong to those countries as well.
Wow there really are fewer Bosnians it´s almost like another nation commited genocide against them.
 
if anyone is stealing and falsificating history it's the serbians. The world witnessed their barbarianism during the 90's when they massacred bosnians, croatians and albanians using the same falsificated history you are writing in your post, without any reliable source. And I can hint from your text that you are trying to say that both croatians and bosnians come from some sort of serbian tribal confederacy?

I do not intend to debate you but, since you were nice enough to reply, I will clarify my point;
The slavs who broke through the Danube Limes during the reign of Emperor Maurice were simply called sloveni or Sklavenoi.
Serbs and Croats, two western slavic tribes, migrated a century ot two later. Croats settled around modern Zagreb and slavonia. Serbs at around the river Drina, both sides, and northern Montenegro. It is possible (even likely) that a bosnian tribe existed even back then, as the name comes form the river toponym (Bosna). In fact, both serbs and croats were just a ruling class, they never migrated in such high numbers to displace the earlier slavs.

Bosnians don't view serbians nor croatians as "kafirs" - You know very well that religion comes in third place for any regular bosnian muslim. The only ones who have showed their murderous intentions were the serbians during the 90's. Just see Srebrenica massacre or Vukovar.

Today, Bosnia and rest of the balkans is secular. Bosnia, Turkey, Albania, and the russian republics are rare examples of european islam. But, just because no bosnian cares about religion at all today, does not mean that there was not persecution during the (late) ottoman era. My point here is that the bosnian muslims emerged as the privileged ruling class. They want to remain the ruling class today, so they fabricate history of a bosnian country to justify separation.

I don't even want to waste my time discussing this. Read my previous posts about the bosnian church, bosnian alphabet which all differed from Serbia. How can that be theft? The only ones who are claiming everything is serbian are the serbians. Do you even realize that there are genetical differences between the three nations?
Bosnian church is just a local name used for the syncretic version of christianity bosnians followed. Officially catholic to appease Hungary, actually bogomilist, just like Serbia and Bulgaria.
Serbian (and Bulgarian, Croatian, Bosnian) alphabets changed many times during their history. There were even internally competeing literary languages in Serbia during the middle ages.
That is my main point in fact: Every unique aspect of Bosnia was just a regional custom, overlapping with her neighbours.

Never have I written in any of my posts that the bosnian legacy only belongs to the bosnian muslims. Maybe you failed to see that I've written catholic all the time? The bosnian "croats" of today are also a part of this heritage.
I did not reply only to you. I was explaining to everyone on the forum the origin of this bosnian myth.

And before I leave this topic, I recommend you read the book Bosnia - A short history, by Noel Malcolm, a proper source. It's allways good to come with sources when claiming anything on a forum for discussions. I've done that all the time.

Eh, why not? Found a pdf already. Seems like an interesting read. Thanks for the recommendation.

By the way, alot of serbian migration happened during the period of Yugoslavia, fyi. To Banja Luka, and to the croatian coast. The map from 2013 means nothing, when we discuss Bosnia during the medieval times. Try again, this isn't Stormfront.

I know about the croatian coast. I am talking of Bosnia only. It is a remarkably homogenous place, both in culture, and accent. Despite 3 religions present, the population is more similar than in Serbia and Croatia. Quite ironic. If croats and serbs had migrated so recently, they would have retained their old subcultures.
 
For Croatia, you could always have them separated and just add another diplo pip to Hungary - you also could add in events/missions for Croatia to absorb the other half by that date - or if something happens them to drift further apart - I think that would add more to the Hungary and Croatia stuff; please consider it, I beg you, other than that recommendation, the map changes look good.
 
The only thing that really bugs me is the lack of the Gatilussios and Mesembria

Also Lovech was a missed chance, it would have been a very fun addition

But other than that I have nothing against this, the map changes are for the most part great
 
Hmm, I really do think more work is required on the map tbh. Some of Iberia's provinces need re-sizing and cities need to be moved (Lisbon is currently on the Atlantic coast rather than the banks of the Tagus for example). The Constantinople province is still to big as well, it gives the Byzantines too much territory in the south, rather than hugging the north coast slightly, which was the case by this time. There are also a few issues with the Balkan provinces, province shapes could do with a bit of tweaking, some cities are in the wrong places and province names could do with a change as well.

I know this sounds like nitpicking but if you're going to release a grand comprehensive overhaul of Europe the attention to detail on the map should be a bit more detailed than it currently is.
 
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