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EU4 - Development Diary - 28th of February 2017

Good day everyone, Tuesday spells for us a new EU4 Development Diary and while certain members are away enjoying the high life at GDC, it falls to me to bring you today's juicy serving of new mechanics.

As teased last week, we shall look closer at the Empire of China, a new concept in the upcoming expansion. In 1444, Ming is busy being the top dog in Asia and indeed the world, but they were not the first to claim Mandate over China and certainly not the last. We are not even one hundred years from the total collapse of the Yuan domination of china and only two hundred years shy of the successor nation Qing.

An important goal for us is to bring new play experiences across the world. Previously as a nation in East Asia, one would generally wait for Ming to crumble to rebellions, usually from loss of the Mandate of Heaven modifier (or a lot of horses and a good shock phase), and then pick up the pieces from this "Mingsplosion" or playing as Ming, simply do everything in your power to avoid falling into aforementioned deadly Spiral. This isn't quite how we would like East Asia to play out. We wish to bring the whole experience to life In the upcoming expansion, as the Empire of China is now a title that is fought for!

eu4_123.png


Where to begin? Our glorious Ming Starts in 1444 with the Celestial throne with a moderate Mandate value. Mandate will grow over time supposing stability is high, States are prosperous and you have an extensive collection of Tributaries. Protect it well, since it will have a large effect on how well your nation will function: Provincial devastation and bordering nations who are not your Tributary or otherwise bending their knee to you will cause Mandate to suffer. At Maximum mandate, The emperor of China will enjoy unrest reduction and cheaper stability cost. Conversely, as Mandate goes down below 50, you will find your troops performing worse and your provinces producing fewer goods, as the people you supposedly rule over with Divine grace back you less and less.

Mandate can be used to pass Celestial Reforms. Not unlike the Holy roman Empire, The Emperor of China must foster the growth of their mandate and spend it to gain some fantastic bonuses. Each Reform can be taken at 80+ Mandate, each will reduce Mandate by 50 and Stability by 1.
  • Introduce Gaituguiliu
    • +0.5 Meritocracy
  • Reform Seaban
    • +1 Diplomats
    • +5% trade Efficiency
  • Delegate Zongdu
    • -0.05 Monthly autonomy
  • Establish Lifan Yuan
    • -10% Core creation Cost
  • Reshape Beurocratic Ranks
    • +1 Monarch Admin Power
Additionally, hawk-eyed readers will have spotted a new Hat in the top bar. Celestial Emperors do not use the Legitimacy values since they are all obviously legit. The Emperor instead has unique access to Meritocracy. This will naturally degrade every year but increases by having skilled advisors in your court. It is then spent on the 6 Decrees, also uniquely available to the Emperor of China.

  • Expand Palace Bureaucracy
    • -10% Development cost
    • -10% core Creation Cost
  • Conduct Population Census
    • +25% National Tax
  • Promote Naval Officers
    • +20% ship durability
  • Increase Tariff Control
    • +25% Provincial trade Power
  • Improve Defense Effort
    • +25% Fort Defense
  • Boost the Officer Corps
    • +10% Infantry Combat Ability
Each Decree lasts for 10 years, costs 20 Meritocracy and, of course, all values are subject to balance up until release, but that's par for the course.

So life is good for the Ming the Celestial Emperor. China is theirs, their tribute flows in regularly and they pass reforms and decrees as they see fit. Well, no single Empire lasts forever.

eu4_126.png


The Celestial throne is there for any Pagan or Eastern Religion nation to secure for themselves. In practice, The Northern Hordes, the Japanese, the Koreans and the Buddhists are all in with a fair shot at securing the title for themselves and have access to a new Casus Belli: Take Mandate of Heaven. Land is cheaper to take in this war. Far cheaper, and it will allow the attacker to secure the Throne for themselves. When this happens, all previous reforms are wiped and the new ruler will start with moderate Mandate themselves. After all, there is only one China and all history from before did not exist. The new Emperor of China will have to quickly establish themselves with their own tributaries and bring Prosperity to the people of China to avoid the fate of their disposed Predecessor. The failed old Emperor of China shall be subjected to the Lost Mandate of Heaven modifier in addition to losing their Empire of China modifiers. Better take care of them, before they collect themselves and put their mind to reclaiming their old throne.

The successful claimant will also enjoy permanent claim on all of China to help consolidate their new power, as our Dai Viet player @Ihki was putting to great effect.

eu4_124.png


Best of luck with your fight to secure the Mandate for yourself. We'll be back next week to talk about another new feature which has our team lamenting any moment that they have to play without it. See you then!
 
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@DDRJake

The new mechanics are nice. But I'm primarily concerned about if this expansion is a buff to Ming. Have you done play tests in this expansion? Does this make Ming stronger? Has Qing ever formed by AI? My concerns are the low autonomy levels of Ming. 50% more to everything is a big buff.

Also I hope if we own cossacks the unique events from China's unique factions still happen. No need to throw away good flavor text.
 
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We are really looking at it from different perspectives. Don_Quigleone and you are both arguing from the perspective of if Chinese population could accept a dynasty shifting toward Christianity. I absolutely agree that it was not entirely impossible because religious believes in Asia were more fluid and flexible. However, my perspective was based on the Catholic ruler himself. The scenario I was talking about were a Catholic ruler outside of the Chinese Mandate of Heaven belief conquering China, claiming to follow the Chinese Mandate of Heaven way of thinking, but also claiming to be Catholic at the same time. It's closer to the context within the game, and you can see how absurd that would be by just looking at the new Emperor of China UI. If a Catholic Emperor is allowed, we are implying this Emperor while staying Catholic, still acknowledging the Chinese dragon at the same time. It would feel totally out of place.

Hong's case was indeed more akin to Mormonism, and that was exactly what's in my mind. Thank you for pointing that out.
In the real world, China and Europe are far enough apart that any European entity can present itself differently to the Chinese than back in Europe. Not so in the game, with for example Korea sometimes allying itself with some west African tribe and maybe Mecklenburg. I wish the game could simulate regional diplomacy better.
 
The scenario I was talking about were a Catholic ruler outside of the Chinese Mandate of Heaven belief conquering China, claiming to follow the Chinese Mandate of Heaven way of thinking, but also claiming to be Catholic at the same time. It's closer to the context within the game, and you can see how absurd that would be by just looking at the new Emperor of China UI. If a Catholic Emperor is allowed, we are implying this Emperor while staying Catholic, still acknowledging the Chinese dragon at the same time. It would feel totally out of place.

Ah, yes, that makes much more sense. Thank you for elaborating on that point, I can definitely agree.
 
Indeed a simplification, but I did want want to pay homage to This Comic

Why is the new East Asian system based on religion but not culture? Timur himself wanted to conquer Ming and be the emperor of china but with this new expansion that would no longer be possible. Muslim nations in the Sino-shpere like Chagatai and Yarkan should be given more chances.

And what would happen if Ming or Japan converted to catholic?
 
In the real world, China and Europe are far enough apart that any European entity can present itself differently to the Chinese than back in Europe. Not so in the game, with for example Korea sometimes allying itself with some west African tribe and maybe Mecklenburg. I wish the game could simulate regional diplomacy better.

Well, the last emperor of Ming was catholic.
 
Well, the last emperor of Ming was catholic.
Doesn't really matter. There were Emperors who were openly Buddhist or supported Taoism, but the state was still based on Confucian values.
 
It does not mean free cores; there is a minimum coring cost of 10% (before multiplication by administrative efficiency).
It does, however, mean instantaneous cores. This is in fact already possible on the current patch, provided you're willing to jump through fairly substantial hoops.
Mandate reforms only extend this possibility an additional 5% though, because they are effectively tied to celestial empire, and thus are mutually exclusive with tribal despotism.
Yep.

There is another toy in 1.20 that makes temporary non-claim instantaneous coring a thing though.

Nevertheless, 93%->98% is pretty significant difference in terms of coring time.
 
As a person of Chinese descent I really want this expansion to be able to simulate the historical nature of Chinese dynastic cycle properly. I honestly don't think it is right any nation to be able to claim the Celestial throne in 1 war, at least for any non-chinese rebel nations anyway. The Manchus took over 3 generations (Nurhaci, Huang Taiji, Shunzhi) to chip away at Ming and it took the Li ZIcheng rebellion (pretty much a Mingplosion) to finally take Beijing. It doesn't seem right that Dai-Viet can claim the Celestial throne after just one successful war.

I think it should be a 2 war process to be able to come Emperor of China. First, a war of rebellion, call it "overthrow of the imperial yoke" where any Tributary nation around Ming can declare, maybe with benefits to how high their liberty desire is (taken from Nurhaci's seven grievances as CB on Ming). After this war, Ming stays Emperor of China but with massive territorial and mandate loss, causing it to fragment, leading way to the 2nd war, which is a akin to the current claim the mandate of heaven design. Too allow any other nation but the northern tribes do this, the 2nd war's wargoal shouldn't just be limited to Beijing but any of the 5 old capitals of China (Xi'an in the west. Nanjing in the east. Luoyan/Kaifeng in the middle. Maybe add Changsha for a southern wargoal plus Beijing in the north). This way any successful claimant have to create an inroad into china proper first before becoming Emperor, but is still easier for Manchu or Mongols as per historical accuracy.
I think I agree with you in principle, but the way these mechanics are set up I think it will work out in practice. Even with large cost reductions I doubt it'll be feasible to take all of China in one bite, but generally the loss of the capitol region means either the death of the dynasty or its reconstitution in much weaker form. I'm not sure it's reasonable for the conqueror to get the Mandate bonuses as soon as they stroll into Beijing but the old one definitely shouldn't retain those bonuses after losing their capitol.

On religion, the emperor of Chinese has to be adherent to Confucian ideals, even if his personal religion could be anything but,. The Chinese bureaucracy have always operated on Confucian ideals who ever the emperor is. I think my 2 step approach solves the problem of not able to start the process if you are not in the right religion as any tributary can try to remove the imperial yoke without being Confucian, but after the first war is over, should have enough provinces to convert. Or, make Confucian a syncretic religion(which it did with Taoism/Buddhism), any non-confusion claimant, having won the first war I proposed above, now has access to Confucianism to convert to and are able to syncretise it with their own religion to not lose too much religious unity (or leave it as it is, which is yet another perk to Manchu/Mongols with Tengri syncretism).
Strongly support this. It would fix the bizarre issue of all the world's Mahayana Buddhists living only in Vietnam when there should be tons of them in China, Korea and Japan and the Vietnamese government should be just as Confucian as Korea's. Also allows for Sunni Hui provinces in northwest China.

Also any new empire of china should have its own unique dynasty name based on the first "Chinese" area they conquer (besides Manchu/mongol into Qing and Yuan of course), so if Dai Viet claims the throne it should become Yue(other name for canton) or Gui(another name for Guangxi)
The only issue I can think of there is that most of the best candidates for region-based dynasty names are already used for Ming revolter tags (Wu, Yue, Chu, Jin, etc). Maybe you could work around this with some kind of generic "China" tag that localizes differently based on capitol?
 
The 50% Autonomy floor from Celestial Empire Government (Which is adopted by whoever is the Emperor of China) Is Dead. No more Autonomy just because you're China.



cheers for the post. I would invite you To formulate improvements for ideas and whatever else in South East Asia in thread in the Suggestions forum. Feel free to tag me with @DDRJake If you make such a post. We love well informed and thought out improvement suggestions.



By default, the Ming Factions are in game
If you own the upcoming DLC, you get the Empire of China mechanics replacing them.
But what about estates? Or do you just get 100% 0 autonomy provinces?

Celestial governments get maintain dynasty too now but they don't get the Ottoman system of heirs as those events are built very specifically around the Ottoman harem politics :)
I would think that heir picking is one of the most important thing ever in Chinese history. It was literally the most fierce war in China, a war for succession between siblings and their supporters. "In very vague theory" the heir should always be the first born, but the emperor could still choose whoever. It would be cool to have a few heirs where their stats are random just like usual, but if you pick anyone other than the first born he will suffer a leader-lifetime penalty on something like +1 unrest or -1 diplo rep. There could be more by adding factions supporting heirs with highest monarch points of their category (ie army - mil, secretary - adm, navy - dip), and picking the heir supported the faction will increase their influence or some other effects. I know the new DLC will disable them, but maybe it could be tied to the government in vanilla where the heir picking is always there whether or not you own the DLC, but just be celestial empire.

So, Ming has gained several new provinces, lost its 50% autonomy, can make tons of tributaries, and gets access to a bunch of shiny new potential benefits if it plays remotely well.

What exactly is keeping it in check? Surely not the Banners system; while nice, that doesn't seem near enough to counter all these additional benefits. Is it that Ming simply doesn't attack anyone because it doesn't want to lose tributaries? Or are "Mingsplosions" now caused by an aggressive AI that attacks its tributaries and then loses mandate?

Being the emperor seems compelling (if easy), but being around the emperor seems even worse than usual now. I expect that isn't the case, as the dev diary opened with text suggesting exactly the opposite. That means I'm missing something -- either information that hasn't been conveyed, or connections that I'm not seeing.

Please help!
Well, nothing really. In real life Ming could've easily killed every nation around them if they wanted to, they just didn't bother. For some reason China (as a whole) prefers diplomatic dominance over military annexation. It is like they see people around them as less advanced and not as powerful. They just want them to recognize China as the "boss", while they in return sort of "educate" them.

If you play around Ming it is definitely harder to conquer them, but it doesn't make it harder for you to survive. The AI Ming should definitely be far less aggressive but just want tributaries, which is pretty much like in history. However it doesn't limit the player to do so too. You can choose to do the same, or take a militarist approach, or balance both. This is really nice as it "Gives players the potential and option, while the AI will remain historical".

China was really conquered by Mongols and Manchus only (Before Westerners), all other times are just break down and civil wars, or rebellions and coup etc. The game is already too easy for someone to conquer China. Yes this really means AI Qing forming will be even more impossible but I would say in real life the Mongols were really strong so it wasn't a miracle they took China (Though still had luck), but the Manchus weren't anything special and also took China because of luck. Therefore it does make sense that it will be very difficult (Or at least making it harder) for other people to conquer China.
 
Also I hope if we own cossacks the unique events from China's unique factions still happen. No need to throw away good flavor text.

We have gone through all the old Chinese faction events, updating their effect so that they have meaning both with and without the dlc, making sure the effects are actually meaningful and that the triggers are possible (turns out a fair number of them could never trigger before) and, perhaps most important of all we've rewritten a large number of them from scratch as they made no sense, had too flimsy connection to history or was just not fitting :)
This should hopefully improve the experience both for those playing with the factions and those playing with the dlc.
 
Well, nothing really. In real life Ming could've easily killed every nation around them if they wanted to, they just didn't bother. For some reason China (as a whole) prefers diplomatic dominance over military annexation. It is like they see people around them as less advanced and not as powerful. They just want them to recognize China as the "boss", while they in return sort of "educate" them.

I don't know about "easily", but while this is true by EU4's time period and by that point the symbolic importance of the tributary relationship was very entrenched, it definitely didn't start out that way- with China "not bothering" to conquer its neighbors. The system was in fact a product of China's inability to do so, and working out that it's a lot easier to secure its frontiers with amicable relations than conquest. With Korea for instance, the initial tributary relationship was established back during the Tang Dynasty, but only after direct invasions had repeatedly failed.
 
"In very vague theory" the heir should always be the first born, but the emperor could still choose whoever.
Here's your "vague theory":
1. Hongwu - dynasty creator
2. Jianwen - the eldest son of Zhu Biao, the oldest son of Hongwu
3. Yongle - the fourth son of Hongwu, usurper
4. Hongxi - the eldest son of Yongle
5. Xuande - the eldest son of Hongxi
6. Zhengtong - the eldest son of Xuande
7. Jingtai - the second son of Xuande (de facto usurpation)
8. Zhengtong x2 (Tianshun)
9. Chenghua - the eldest son of Zhengtong
10. Hongzhi - the third son of Chenghua (previous two died without issue)
11. Zhengde - the eldest son of Hongzhi
12. Jiajing - the eldest son of Zhu Youyuan, the fourth son of Chengua
13. Longqing - the third son of Jiajing (previous two died without issue)
14. Wanli - the third son of Longqing (previous two died without issue)
15. Taichang - the eldest son of Wanli
16. Tianqi - the eldest son of Taichang
17. Chongzhen - the fifth son of Taichang (all sons of Tianqi died without issue; second, third and fourth sons of Taichang died without issue)

As you can see a strict primogeniture was observed during Ming dynasty. The only exceptions being Yongle's usurpation and the enthronement of Jingtai while skipping over 2 years old son of Zhengtong.

Of course, this doesn't apply for neither Yuan nor Qing dynasty, where succession followed barbarian customs instead.
 
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But what about estates? Or do you just get 100% 0 autonomy provinces?


I would think that heir picking is one of the most important thing ever in Chinese history. It was literally the most fierce war in China, a war for succession between siblings and their supporters. "In very vague theory" the heir should always be the first born, but the emperor could still choose whoever. It would be cool to have a few heirs where their stats are random just like usual, but if you pick anyone other than the first born he will suffer a leader-lifetime penalty on something like +1 unrest or -1 diplo rep. There could be more by adding factions supporting heirs with highest monarch points of their category (ie army - mil, secretary - adm, navy - dip), and picking the heir supported the faction will increase their influence or some other effects. I know the new DLC will disable them, but maybe it could be tied to the government in vanilla where the heir picking is always there whether or not you own the DLC, but just be celestial empire.


Well, nothing really. In real life Ming could've easily killed every nation around them if they wanted to, they just didn't bother. For some reason China (as a whole) prefers diplomatic dominance over military annexation. It is like they see people around them as less advanced and not as powerful. They just want them to recognize China as the "boss", while they in return sort of "educate" them.

If you play around Ming it is definitely harder to conquer them, but it doesn't make it harder for you to survive. The AI Ming should definitely be far less aggressive but just want tributaries, which is pretty much like in history. However it doesn't limit the player to do so too. You can choose to do the same, or take a militarist approach, or balance both. This is really nice as it "Gives players the potential and option, while the AI will remain historical".

China was really conquered by Mongols and Manchus only (Before Westerners), all other times are just break down and civil wars, or rebellions and coup etc. The game is already too easy for someone to conquer China. Yes this really means AI Qing forming will be even more impossible but I would say in real life the Mongols were really strong so it wasn't a miracle they took China (Though still had luck), but the Manchus weren't anything special and also took China because of luck. Therefore it does make sense that it will be very difficult (Or at least making it harder) for other people to conquer China.
The heir thing you mentioned really applies to every single monarchy with a harem.
 
But what about estates? Or do you just get 100% 0 autonomy provinces?

As per the stream, Ming can no longer state them all because of the state division/state limit changes, a lot of provinces will be at 75% instead of 50%.

Well, nothing really. In real life Ming could've easily killed every nation around them if they wanted to, they just didn't bother. For some reason China (as a whole) prefers diplomatic dominance over military annexation. It is like they see people around them as less advanced and not as powerful. They just want them to recognize China as the "boss", while they in return sort of "educate" them.

It would still be a waste of manpower and money for little to no gains. Most of the land around Ming is very very garbage, worse than 1/1/1, with the exception of the land developed under the Annan protectorate area and some in Korea.
 
Here's your "vague theory":
As you can see a strict primogenimature was observed during Ming dynasty. The only exceptions being Yongle's usurpation and the enthronement of Jingtai while skipping over 2 years old son of Zhengtong.

Of course, this doesn't apply for neither Yuan nor Qing dynasty, where succession followed barbarian customs instead.
Ming may had followed that but not all dynasties before, or countries that claimed to be emperor when China was divided always appointed their eldest. It may have evolved that the eldest being the heir became increasingly common as time went on, but the first born still wasn't like 100% instant heir. Would be interesting to have the player have the option to choose which way he would go for, tradition for eldest, or ability of heir.

Still, personally I think this would be too much for a single country. Would really like that to be in CK3 with China in it. It would make the mechanic a lot more fun with concubines, vassal support and their opinion and all other stuff like traits for a first born and non first born heir/emperor.
 
I'm going to guess a few of these Chimese-orientated achievements here (amateur comedian don't post an article saying im a nazi pls subscribe):
Will the real God-Emperor please stand up? - Have at least a 5-5-5 emperor of China with a full stack of level 3 advisers and having passed all the Celestial reforms.
Centre of the World - Have more than 50 tributaries as emperor of China.
Ka-Ching - As the Qing while being emperor of China, earn more than 888 ducats per turn.
1421 2, Electric Boogaloo - As Ming, explore and have a colonial nation in America.
My favourite is chicken chow mein - Own majority grain provinces in the world as Ming or Qing.
Made in China - As Ming or Qing, have the Manufactories institution spawn in one of your provinces.
Unequal Treaties - As emperor of China, annex a European province, take all their ducats and force them to pay war reparations.
The Art of War - As the emperor of China, have 88 army tradition and 88 prestige.
Japan, I am no longer the land where the sun sets aruuuuu! (hetalia reference) - As emperor of China, conquer Japan.
 
Doesn't really matter. There were Emperors who were openly Buddhist or supported Taoism, but the state was still based on Confucian values.

Eh, the case with Emperor Yongli is a bit different though. He effectively converted his whole court and family into Christianity although he was still a confucianist in name.
 
Here's your "vague theory":
1. Hongwu - dynasty creator
2. Jianwen - the eldest son of Zhu Biao, the oldest son of Hongwu
3. Yongle - the fourth son of Hongwu, usurper
4. Hongxi - the eldest son of Yongle
5. Xuande - the eldest son of Hongxi
6. Zhengtong - the eldest son of Xuande
7. Jingtai - the second son of Xuande (de facto usurpation)
8. Zhengtong x2 (Tianshun)
9. Chenghua - the eldest son of Zhengtong
10. Hongzhi - the third son of Chenghua (previous two died without issue)
11. Zhengde - the eldest son of Hongzhi
12. Jiajing - the eldest son of Zhu Youyuan, the fourth son of Chengua
13. Longqing - the third son of Jiajing (previous two died without issue)
14. Wanli - the third son of Longqing (previous two died without issue)
15. Taichang - the eldest son of Wanli
16. Tianqi - the eldest son of Taichang
17. Chongzhen - the fifth son of Taichang (all sons of Tianqi died without issue; second, third and fourth sons of Taichang died without issue)

As you can see a strict primogenimature was observed during Ming dynasty. The only exceptions being Yongle's usurpation and the enthronement of Jingtai while skipping over 2 years old son of Zhengtong.

Of course, this doesn't apply for neither Yuan nor Qing dynasty, where succession followed barbarian customs instead.

"Barbarian customs" is such a ignorant and Sino-centric phrase to use. If you meant to say "蛮夷" as in its historical usage, please use quotation marks to avoid confusion.