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EU4 - Development Diary - 8th of May 2018

Hello and welcome!


This is the third and last development diary on what map and setup changes patch 1.26 for Europa Universalis IV will bring. This time we will turn our attention to the north and east. We will start by turning away from India for a bit and looking into what the situation was like in Burma in 1444 and then return to have a closer look at Bengal and Tibet.
Previous Diaries have shown changes to South India and North India.

We will also be taking a second look at what new formables we will be introducing with the patch in India.


Burma
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Today we move our attention east to the Irrawaddy valley and the region of Burma. For almost 500 years Burma was dominated by the Pagan Kingdom but by the end of the thirteenth century the Yuan dynasty destroyed Pagan through repeated invasions. In 1444 Pagan’s legacy lives in the form of an entrenched presence of Theravada Buddhism but the region is still largely divided into the various fortified Shan states that were once vassals of Pagan.
In the last 80 years the Burmese Kingdom of Ava have attempted to pick up the fallen Mantle of Pagan, building a city state using the organization and administration of the former kingdom.
Ava has in short time risen to be the overlord of the Shan Soaphas but would historically itself be replaced by the Shan states as they united in the Shan Confederation to overthrow their old master.
It was not however until the 16th century that the small kingdom of Taungu would once again unify the entire region and then turn its attention towards South East Asia and India.

The Burmese region has been given a thorough overhaul in patch 1.26 by our recent addition to the EU4 team @neondt ! To better portray the situation at the start and the rising Ava kingdom we have added a number of new Shan and Burmese states, most of which are tributaries of Ava at start as well as a general increase in the depth and province density of the region.,

To further highlight the separated nature of Burma the inland is now also its own, Burmese, Trade Node with trade incoming from Chengdu and outgoing to Bengal and the Burmese culture group has been separated from the Tibetan group.

In the government overhaul in the, as of yet unannounced DLC, there will also be a “Mandala” government reform that is available to the Burmese and countries in South East Asia.


New Playable Countries in 1444:
  • Kale - Small Shan kingdom in the Chin hills next to the Arakanese mountains. Starts as a Tributary of Ava.
  • Mong Mao - Small Shan state right at the border of Ming China. Led by Si Renfa this small kingdom has just defended itself against its mighty neighbor and would soon find the need to do so again. While Mong Mao eventually fell to the Chinese advance they put up a much stronger resistance than one might expect.
  • Mong Nai - Small Shan Kingdom representing the states of Mong Kung and Mong Nai. Starts as a Tributary of Ava.
  • Mong Pai - Small Shan kingdom bordering both Ava and Lan Na. Starts as a tributary of Ava.
  • Prome - Small Burmese kingdom between Ava and Pegu. Starts as a tributary of Ava.
  • Hsipaw - Shan Kingdom in the highlands just east of Ava. Starts as a tributary of Ava.


Bengal & Upper Burma
Bengal.png


Much like most of Northern India Bengal in 1444 is a state that has broken free from the Delhi sultanate. Unlike most of the other Sultanates however Bengal is a region that has often been both autonomous and rebellious. The Ilyas Shahi dynasty broke their ties with Delhi as 50 years before the city fell to Timur and have spent time since building a strong state kingdom around the mouth of the Ganges. In the decades preceding the start of the game the Sultanate has just gotten rid of the line of a Hindu Vizier who through his abilities had risen to control the Sultanate while also expanding on the expensive of the nearby states of Tripura and Orissa.

To the north the Ahom kingdom of Assam has come to dominate the Brahmaputra valley over the last 200 - years. The Ahom dynasty has its roots in Mong Mao and have come to displace the local rulers while undertaking a rapid “Ahomization” of the local population, introducing south east asian methods of agriculture and administration. In the far northern uplands the older kingdom of Sudiya still lingers but its ability to withstand Assamese, or indeed Burmese, invasions is by now limited.

In 1.26 Bengal and its surroundings along the Ganges and Brahmaputra have been expanded with more provinces and a higher level of detail. A Kochi culture has been added for northern Bengal and the existing Koch state is its primary tag. New incoming trade node connections have been added from Lhasa and the new Burma node.

We have also taken the opportunity to expand on the strategic nature of the Burmese geography. Adding more depth in the form of provinces as well as wastelands to better show the perils of navigating the valleys of Upper Burma. Eliminating the odd situation in previous patches where Ming would be able to immediately invade Burma and then India from the get go the new setup means that there will be a lot more land to cover for an enterprising Chinese state looking to expand its tributary network in India or Burma.

Manipur retains its position as a gate through the Arakanese mountains, and might still play the role they had historically as a surprisingly strong and able enemy of the Shan states and the Indian hill countries alike.

New Playable Country in 1444:
Mong Kawng - Shan state controlling the valleys of upper Burma, borders the Tibetan region in the north and the Sadiya kingdom in north eastern Assam to the west.

Tibet
Tibet.png


In 1444 Tibet has seen a recent powershift from the southern Phagmodrupa dynasty in the Yarlung valley to the Rinpungpa Dynasty (U-Tsang in the game). While the Phagmodrupa, formerly overlords of the Rinpungpa and “Masters of Abisheka” according to the Ming, are no longer as strong as they once were, they still retain control over their homeland and would continue to maintain an independent presence until the 17th century.

In 1.26 we have once again have help from @Fryz with research and setup for Tibet. Like in the other focus regions we have added provinces and countries where we felt it appropriate, such as Sakya, headquarter of its eponymous school, and Damxung, the strategical gateway to Lhasa on the ancient Xi'an-Lhasa road.
Perhaps most impactful however are the new wastelands that have been added to better reflect how restrictive the geography of the Tibetan plateau can be. In the far east the Hengduan range now restricts access between Tibet and China, much like the added wastelands in Burma to the south also do.
The unsettled Changthang highland has also gone from a gigantic normal province to be a wasteland cutting off direct access between eastern Tibet and Guge in the west. Together with Aqenganggyai it also ensures that central Tibet is still cut off from Tarim basin while the new province of Rutleg makes access towards India from there somewhat easier.
In the north east the new Qilian mountains also restrict movement between northern Tibet and Gansu.

New Playable Country in 1444:

Phagmodrupa - Medium Tibetan kingdom in southern Ü-Tsang.

I promised a look to what new formables patch 1.26 will give to the game. Two had already been shown in a previous diary but are included below for a complete list:


  • Delhi - The main Sultanate title in India was always Delhi. A northern Indian Sultanate will be able to become Delhi once they have secured the Imperial city itself and will then gain claims and other content related to that country.
  • Nepal - Formable for a strong Nepalese kingdom that unifies the central parts of the country. Gives better national ideas and claims on the wider region claimed by Nepal at its greatest extent.
  • Nagpur - The Kingdom of Nagpur was historically founded by the Rajas of Deogarh, but was then usurped by the Maratha Bhonsle dynasty. Nagpur would then conquer most of the tribal Indian central/eastern Tribal region. In the game any of the Central Indic countries that unifies Gondwana and the Garjats will be able to form the stronger Nagpur kingdom, potentially also inviting a Maratha dynasty.
  • Punjab - A small Punjabi country can, if it conquers the right Punjabi provinces form Punjab and gain access to their national idea set.
  • Deccan - A surviving sultanate in Deccan that reaches a enough power and influence can reform into the sultanate of Deccan. This country is loosely based on the Nizamate of the Deccan, a state set up by the Mughal Empire that ended up not only outliving it but also becoming the largest princely state in India before finally being occupied by the Republic of India. The Nizamate will gain access to claims and new national ideas.
  • Marathas - A Hindu country of Maratha culture and in possession of the right provinces can, if it fulfills the right criteria, form the Maratha tag and gain access to claims and national ideas.
  • Rajputana - Technically the land of many princes Rajputana is a formation available to a Rajput kingdom that manages to not only unite the Rajput lands but also reclaim the important cities of the great medieval Rajput kingdoms such as Ujjain, Kannauj and Anhilwad Patan.

Last but not least the requirement for the Bharat or Hindustan formations have been made considerably harder. Expect to be masters of India before being able to title yourselves as such :)
 
Hello EU4 dev team,
It is nice that you guys have made some map changes in SEA especially Burma.
Historically speaking, MIng and its next successor Qing had attempted multiple invasions to the heart of Burmese land. But all of them have been defeated mainly due to the terrain bonus, attrition and the Burmese defensive army strength.
One thing to remember is the Burmese lands are not stable. Some Shan minor provinces bordering both China and the Burmese major power bloc have to send tributes to both Ming and the Burmese major. Historically speaking, some Chinese Burman Wars began with minor shan state not paying tributes to the Burmese major faction resulting invasion and counter invasion ultimately bringing Ming or Qing into the action.
When Qing wanted to flex her muscles, she also targeted the Burma too.
Overall, there were at least 5 major Chinese invasions to the Burmese land occurred during the Ming and Qing period. And all of the invasions were failures.

Actually, I was referring this and other information when I have touched this region in 2016 (with AoW, IIRC).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Burmese_War_(1765–69)
Good that there are more and more such information available. There were quite few sources before 2009...
The instability of Burma is already represented with many different cultures and harsh terrains (very hard to move quickly). Let's see how they will be improved in the next patch...
 
Hello and welcome!
Manipur retains its position as a gate through the Arakanese mountains, and might still play the role they had historically as a surprisingly strong and able enemy of the Shan states and the Indian hill countries alike.
Wait what? *Looks at Manipur*

Oh damn, what a position to hold. Build a fort on that and watch your enemies suffer.
 
By the way, Christian nations can have CB such as personal union. The Asian nations do have similar CB too. The war CB of many inter Burmese conflicts are based upon the life of the royal family member at the targeted nation. As an example, take a look at the 40 years long Ava-Pegu war in which both nations have closed royal marriages before and even in the warring times. Weird right?
I am pretty sure you would find many CB in Asian warfare where it was focused upon protecting or simply putting the dearest royal family member to the throne as we played in CKII.
So, please remove the restriction by Buddhist religious ideology because it is not realistic.
 
Love all these additions!

Hope the next free patch could add some new provinces and tags for the rest of South East Asia.

After that the only regions that really need full improvement are South Europe (Iberia-Italy-Balkans) and the Americas (especially Mesoamerica).
 
Do you have an English map of Ming China administrative divisions by chance? Been looking for one for a while now. Not talking about province-level, but smaller (as in; usable for a China rework).

Yes, I have made a huge map and a mod to fit the real historical divisions of Ming, in fact I would like to post my ugly map on wikipedia finally.
if you need my tiny mod, you could ask me in a conversation and I would give you the link to download it.
 
Do you have an English map of Ming China administrative divisions by chance? Been looking for one for a while now. Not talking about province-level, but smaller (as in; usable for a China rework).
By the way, do you know the actual porvince divisions of Ava, Taungoo or Konbaung?I wonder it.
As a Chinese, I found it too hard to find essays about historical divisions of SEA , the barrier of language is huge.
 
Why not a trade route: Chengdu --> Lhasa and Lhasa --> Xi'an?

Tibet seems to me to be too much landlocked commercially and it seems to me that there are two important roads with China.
In addition, Chinese tea passed through Tibet to reach Ladakh.
 
Why not a trade route: Chengdu --> Lhasa and Lhasa --> Xi'an?

Tibet seems to me to be too much landlocked commercially and it seems to me that there are two important roads with China.
In addition, Chinese tea passed through Tibet to reach Ladakh.
strange node indeed for us Chinese, Sichuan usually communicates with Shannxi with Qinling, why go to tibet and back to Shannxi?
 
I guess I'm a little disappointed that the India-Tibet border wasn't cut down to a few key Himalayan passes, but rather remains a wide open line of provinces. I'm pretty sick of seeing Bengal dominate Tibet, game after game.
 
Asked this last week, but thought I'd ask again now that the correct region has been revealed. Why is Bhutan not a playable nation at game start since one of its few claims to fame is that it has never been conquered (except possibly between the 7th-9th centuries)? Its always seemed an odd choice to me for it to a releasable country, even if it was rather decentralized at this time.
 
Asked this last week, but thought I'd ask again now that the correct region has been revealed. Why is Bhutan not a playable nation at game start since one of its few claims to fame is that it has never been conquered (except possibly between the 7th-9th centuries)? Its always seemed an odd choice to me for it to a releasable country, even if it was rather decentralized at this time.
1. Bhutan at 1444 is just another collection of Tibetan tribes, and did not really form a separate independent identity until after the 1600s.

2. The theory of its long independence is based on a very generous definition of what a independent state is as well as some semi-nationalistic myths, and not really supported by the historic perspectives of neighboring countries at the time.
 
By the way, Christian nations can have CB such as personal union. The Asian nations do have similar CB too. The war CB of many inter Burmese conflicts are based upon the life of the royal family member at the targeted nation. As an example, take a look at the 40 years long Ava-Pegu war in which both nations have closed royal marriages before and even in the warring times. Weird right?
I am pretty sure you would find many CB in Asian warfare where it was focused upon protecting or simply putting the dearest royal family member to the throne as we played in CKII.
So, please remove the restriction by Buddhist religious ideology because it is not realistic.
Though not personal unions, but concept of succession should be introduced for non-christian nations. If I put it from Indian perspective then there were far more wars related to succession than actual conquest. Also there should be some incentive/bonus to the winning side when they succeeds in putting their favourite prince/king (who could many a times be of the same family/dynasty) on the throne.
 
I guess I'm a little disappointed that the India-Tibet border wasn't cut down to a few key Himalayan passes, but rather remains a wide open line of provinces. I'm pretty sick of seeing Bengal dominate Tibet, game after game.

Again it has to be open to allow for historical maneuvers and invasions. We don’t add wasteland if it would not cut off provinces from each other and in this region there are enough passes that no provinces should be blocked from each other.
 
@Trin Tragula

Quick Question: Have there been any changes to how Ming interacts with India? Right now, they almost always expand their sphere into India through tributary states like Bengal or Orissa which makes no sense because it was impossible to project power across the Himalayas (even to this day). This has been one of my main gripes with playing in India which didn't exist before Mandate of Heaven.
 
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Again it has to be open to allow for historical maneuvers and invasions. We don’t add wasteland if it would not cut off provinces from each other and in this region there are enough passes that no provinces should be blocked from each other.
But shouldn't those passes be represented as 'Passes' than a continuous wide one we have now. But yes they are so many of them that it won't be easy to put on map that way.

I wished there were along western ghat and in central India as well where two rivers and two ranges run parallel to each other - deciding many things in history from geographical perspective.

https://www.pmfias.com/major-passes...ass-banihal-pass-shipki-la-nathu-la-jelep-la/
 
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What about the tributaries... will they be available only to owners of MoH as it used to be the case, or will they be a different type of subject/tributary/vassal, available even without MoH ?

Without MOH they will be independent. Just like other tributaries on startup.
It was felt that being independent entirely was more true to history than starting as a vassal without the DLC for countries that were tributaries.
 
1. Bhutan at 1444 is just another collection of Tibetan tribes, and did not really form a separate independent identity until after the 1600s.

2. The theory of its long independence is based on a very generous definition of what a independent state is as well as some semi-nationalistic myths, and not really supported by the historic perspectives of neighboring countries at the time.

Both points are true, although 1 is with modifications, but doesn't invalidate a possible independent Bhutan. Now most of tibet are more or less independent polities, so only a few states will be used. For example Kham contains something like 40+ actual states. Bhutan could be independent, they were not under central tibetan rule, and we already have a tag.

And to the truth with modification, calling bhutanese tribes 'tibetan' tribes are only partially true as many people, indeed kingdoms were not tibetan (bumthang kingdom for example)