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EU4 - Development Diary - 8th of May 2018

Hello and welcome!


This is the third and last development diary on what map and setup changes patch 1.26 for Europa Universalis IV will bring. This time we will turn our attention to the north and east. We will start by turning away from India for a bit and looking into what the situation was like in Burma in 1444 and then return to have a closer look at Bengal and Tibet.
Previous Diaries have shown changes to South India and North India.

We will also be taking a second look at what new formables we will be introducing with the patch in India.


Burma
BUrma.png


Today we move our attention east to the Irrawaddy valley and the region of Burma. For almost 500 years Burma was dominated by the Pagan Kingdom but by the end of the thirteenth century the Yuan dynasty destroyed Pagan through repeated invasions. In 1444 Pagan’s legacy lives in the form of an entrenched presence of Theravada Buddhism but the region is still largely divided into the various fortified Shan states that were once vassals of Pagan.
In the last 80 years the Burmese Kingdom of Ava have attempted to pick up the fallen Mantle of Pagan, building a city state using the organization and administration of the former kingdom.
Ava has in short time risen to be the overlord of the Shan Soaphas but would historically itself be replaced by the Shan states as they united in the Shan Confederation to overthrow their old master.
It was not however until the 16th century that the small kingdom of Taungu would once again unify the entire region and then turn its attention towards South East Asia and India.

The Burmese region has been given a thorough overhaul in patch 1.26 by our recent addition to the EU4 team @neondt ! To better portray the situation at the start and the rising Ava kingdom we have added a number of new Shan and Burmese states, most of which are tributaries of Ava at start as well as a general increase in the depth and province density of the region.,

To further highlight the separated nature of Burma the inland is now also its own, Burmese, Trade Node with trade incoming from Chengdu and outgoing to Bengal and the Burmese culture group has been separated from the Tibetan group.

In the government overhaul in the, as of yet unannounced DLC, there will also be a “Mandala” government reform that is available to the Burmese and countries in South East Asia.


New Playable Countries in 1444:
  • Kale - Small Shan kingdom in the Chin hills next to the Arakanese mountains. Starts as a Tributary of Ava.
  • Mong Mao - Small Shan state right at the border of Ming China. Led by Si Renfa this small kingdom has just defended itself against its mighty neighbor and would soon find the need to do so again. While Mong Mao eventually fell to the Chinese advance they put up a much stronger resistance than one might expect.
  • Mong Nai - Small Shan Kingdom representing the states of Mong Kung and Mong Nai. Starts as a Tributary of Ava.
  • Mong Pai - Small Shan kingdom bordering both Ava and Lan Na. Starts as a tributary of Ava.
  • Prome - Small Burmese kingdom between Ava and Pegu. Starts as a tributary of Ava.
  • Hsipaw - Shan Kingdom in the highlands just east of Ava. Starts as a tributary of Ava.


Bengal & Upper Burma
Bengal.png


Much like most of Northern India Bengal in 1444 is a state that has broken free from the Delhi sultanate. Unlike most of the other Sultanates however Bengal is a region that has often been both autonomous and rebellious. The Ilyas Shahi dynasty broke their ties with Delhi as 50 years before the city fell to Timur and have spent time since building a strong state kingdom around the mouth of the Ganges. In the decades preceding the start of the game the Sultanate has just gotten rid of the line of a Hindu Vizier who through his abilities had risen to control the Sultanate while also expanding on the expensive of the nearby states of Tripura and Orissa.

To the north the Ahom kingdom of Assam has come to dominate the Brahmaputra valley over the last 200 - years. The Ahom dynasty has its roots in Mong Mao and have come to displace the local rulers while undertaking a rapid “Ahomization” of the local population, introducing south east asian methods of agriculture and administration. In the far northern uplands the older kingdom of Sudiya still lingers but its ability to withstand Assamese, or indeed Burmese, invasions is by now limited.

In 1.26 Bengal and its surroundings along the Ganges and Brahmaputra have been expanded with more provinces and a higher level of detail. A Kochi culture has been added for northern Bengal and the existing Koch state is its primary tag. New incoming trade node connections have been added from Lhasa and the new Burma node.

We have also taken the opportunity to expand on the strategic nature of the Burmese geography. Adding more depth in the form of provinces as well as wastelands to better show the perils of navigating the valleys of Upper Burma. Eliminating the odd situation in previous patches where Ming would be able to immediately invade Burma and then India from the get go the new setup means that there will be a lot more land to cover for an enterprising Chinese state looking to expand its tributary network in India or Burma.

Manipur retains its position as a gate through the Arakanese mountains, and might still play the role they had historically as a surprisingly strong and able enemy of the Shan states and the Indian hill countries alike.

New Playable Country in 1444:
Mong Kawng - Shan state controlling the valleys of upper Burma, borders the Tibetan region in the north and the Sadiya kingdom in north eastern Assam to the west.

Tibet
Tibet.png


In 1444 Tibet has seen a recent powershift from the southern Phagmodrupa dynasty in the Yarlung valley to the Rinpungpa Dynasty (U-Tsang in the game). While the Phagmodrupa, formerly overlords of the Rinpungpa and “Masters of Abisheka” according to the Ming, are no longer as strong as they once were, they still retain control over their homeland and would continue to maintain an independent presence until the 17th century.

In 1.26 we have once again have help from @Fryz with research and setup for Tibet. Like in the other focus regions we have added provinces and countries where we felt it appropriate, such as Sakya, headquarter of its eponymous school, and Damxung, the strategical gateway to Lhasa on the ancient Xi'an-Lhasa road.
Perhaps most impactful however are the new wastelands that have been added to better reflect how restrictive the geography of the Tibetan plateau can be. In the far east the Hengduan range now restricts access between Tibet and China, much like the added wastelands in Burma to the south also do.
The unsettled Changthang highland has also gone from a gigantic normal province to be a wasteland cutting off direct access between eastern Tibet and Guge in the west. Together with Aqenganggyai it also ensures that central Tibet is still cut off from Tarim basin while the new province of Rutleg makes access towards India from there somewhat easier.
In the north east the new Qilian mountains also restrict movement between northern Tibet and Gansu.

New Playable Country in 1444:

Phagmodrupa - Medium Tibetan kingdom in southern Ü-Tsang.

I promised a look to what new formables patch 1.26 will give to the game. Two had already been shown in a previous diary but are included below for a complete list:


  • Delhi - The main Sultanate title in India was always Delhi. A northern Indian Sultanate will be able to become Delhi once they have secured the Imperial city itself and will then gain claims and other content related to that country.
  • Nepal - Formable for a strong Nepalese kingdom that unifies the central parts of the country. Gives better national ideas and claims on the wider region claimed by Nepal at its greatest extent.
  • Nagpur - The Kingdom of Nagpur was historically founded by the Rajas of Deogarh, but was then usurped by the Maratha Bhonsle dynasty. Nagpur would then conquer most of the tribal Indian central/eastern Tribal region. In the game any of the Central Indic countries that unifies Gondwana and the Garjats will be able to form the stronger Nagpur kingdom, potentially also inviting a Maratha dynasty.
  • Punjab - A small Punjabi country can, if it conquers the right Punjabi provinces form Punjab and gain access to their national idea set.
  • Deccan - A surviving sultanate in Deccan that reaches a enough power and influence can reform into the sultanate of Deccan. This country is loosely based on the Nizamate of the Deccan, a state set up by the Mughal Empire that ended up not only outliving it but also becoming the largest princely state in India before finally being occupied by the Republic of India. The Nizamate will gain access to claims and new national ideas.
  • Marathas - A Hindu country of Maratha culture and in possession of the right provinces can, if it fulfills the right criteria, form the Maratha tag and gain access to claims and national ideas.
  • Rajputana - Technically the land of many princes Rajputana is a formation available to a Rajput kingdom that manages to not only unite the Rajput lands but also reclaim the important cities of the great medieval Rajput kingdoms such as Ujjain, Kannauj and Anhilwad Patan.

Last but not least the requirement for the Bharat or Hindustan formations have been made considerably harder. Expect to be masters of India before being able to title yourselves as such :)
 
Again it has to be open to allow for historical maneuvers and invasions. We don’t add wasteland if it would not cut off provinces from each other and in this region there are enough passes that no provinces should be blocked from each other.


For visual purposes it might be nice to add mountains and then several passes.

Or at least only add the most famous passes to add a degree of difficulty.
 
I guess it's not within the scope of the update; they went with the part of Tibet closest to India, not the one closest to China.

Well that's a bit weird way to split it, especially when we had a ming update and no changes to Kham. Makes it unlikely to have any update again and this leaves tibet in an unfinished way (imo). Maybe a mongolia/tartary patch, which I and others worked a lot on in the suggestion forum.

Anyway, the part closest to india, also ran into some issues, which I outline in a new thread over in suggestion forum, mainly the strange distribution of provinces, like having the Ringpungapa capitol, shigatse, start as part of phagmodrupa is definitly odd and plain wrong.

Also there doesn't seem to be any changes to Ladakh, a region part of both Tibet and India
 
For visual purposes it might be nice to add mountains and then several passes.

I would have liked that too, but there doesn't seem to be any proper researching backing it up. I think if we're gonna see it changed someone needs to make a really well-researched suhgestion, proven it's effectivness and historical validity.
 
@Trin Tragula
I just noticed Ava is surrounded by tributaries. Doesn't this make it impossible to expand without getting rid of one? I think maybe you should look at granting Ava a province bordering a non-tributary nation.
 
Again it has to be open to allow for historical maneuvers and invasions. We don’t add wasteland if it would not cut off provinces from each other and in this region there are enough passes that no provinces should be blocked from each other.
If that is true, then why come historicaly Tibet was never conquered by an Indian kingdom from the Ganges river valley. What were the factors that kept Tibet safe from being conquered from the south? How will you simulate that ingame? I must say that im allso quite sick and tired of seing Bengal own Tibet every game.
 
If that is true, then why come historicaly Tibet was never conquered by an Indian kingdom from the Ganges river valley. What were the factors that kept Tibet safe from being conquered from the south? How will you simulate that ingame? I must say that im allso quite sick and tired of seing Bengal own Tibet every game.

High attrition and low value, probably. Tibet is huge, politically decentralized. When the Qianglong emperor wanted to integrate the Jinchuan valley in eastern Kham, it become his most costly campaign

[...]the Qing forces being forced to fight a protracted war of attrition costing the Imperial Treasury several times the amounts expended on the earlier conquests of the Dzungars and Xinjiang. The resisting tribes retreated to their stone towers and forts in steep mountains and could only be dislodged by cannon fire.

Generally this is something euiv can't represent (compare to ottomans sending down 50k armies through the Sahara desert)
 
Marathas - A Hindu country of Maratha culture and in possession of the right provinces can, if it fulfills the right criteria, form the Maratha tag and gain access to claims and national ideas.
The Duke of Wellington, after defeating the Marathas, cautioned one British general that: 'You must never allow Maratha infantry to attack head on or in close hand to hand combat as in that your army will cover itself with utter disgrace.' Even when Arthur Wellesley, the 1st Duke of Wellington, became the Prime Minister of Britain, he held the Maratha infantry in utmost respect, claiming it to be one of the best in the world. However, at the same time he noted the poor leadership of Maratha Generals, who were often responsible for their defeats.

Charles Metcalfe, one of the ablest of the British Officials in India and later acting Governor-General, wrote in 1806: 'India contains no more than two great powers, British and Maratha, and every other state acknowledges the influence of one or the other. Every inch that we recede will be occupied by them.'

Norman Gash says that the Maratha infantry was equal to that of British infantry. After the Third Anglo-Maratha War in 1818, Britain listed the Marathas as one of the Martial races to serve in the British Indian Army.

The 19th century diplomat Sir Justin Sheil commented about the British East India Company copying the French Indian army in raising an army of Indians:
'It is to the military genius of the French that we are indebted for the formation of the Indian army. Our warlike neighbours were the first to introduce into India the system of drilling native troops and converting them into a regularly disciplined force. Their example was copied by us, and the result is what we now behold.'

I hope the new formable Maratha ideas are at least half as good.
 
Again it has to be open to allow for historical maneuvers and invasions. We don’t add wasteland if it would not cut off provinces from each other and in this region there are enough passes that no provinces should be blocked from each other.

The historical invasions could still be preserved if the Himalaya passes were reduced to a minimal number - my recommendation would be to retain only Sikkim-Shigatse (representing a number of passes there) and the straight line north from Kathmandu (can't see the new province name as it is too small), which formed the main trade route from Nepal to Tibet. It would also have the advantage of making trans-Himalayan expeditions much more rare (which in any event, occurred only at the tail end of the EU4 period). In this period, Tibet was invaded successfully from the north and east, but not really from the south; the current setup causes Tibet to be dominated by an Indian power (usually Bengal) far too often. It should be at least as difficult to cross the Himalayas as any of the other mountain chains that have been added recently.
 
The Duke of Wellington, after defeating the Marathas, cautioned one British general that: 'You must never allow Maratha infantry to attack head on or in close hand to hand combat as in that your army will cover itself with utter disgrace.' Even when Arthur Wellesley, the 1st Duke of Wellington, became the Prime Minister of Britain, he held the Maratha infantry in utmost respect, claiming it to be one of the best in the world. However, at the same time he noted the poor leadership of Maratha Generals, who were often responsible for their defeats.

Charles Metcalfe, one of the ablest of the British Officials in India and later acting Governor-General, wrote in 1806: 'India contains no more than two great powers, British and Maratha, and every other state acknowledges the influence of one or the other. Every inch that we recede will be occupied by them.'

Norman Gash says that the Maratha infantry was equal to that of British infantry. After the Third Anglo-Maratha War in 1818, Britain listed the Marathas as one of the Martial races to serve in the British Indian Army.

The 19th century diplomat Sir Justin Sheil commented about the British East India Company copying the French Indian army in raising an army of Indians:
'It is to the military genius of the French that we are indebted for the formation of the Indian army. Our warlike neighbours were the first to introduce into India the system of drilling native troops and converting them into a regularly disciplined force. Their example was copied by us, and the result is what we now behold.'

I hope the new formable Maratha ideas are at least half as good.
I would take it with a grain of salt, the British did fight the wars outnumbered and they eventually defeated the Maratha...
 
I would take it with a grain of salt, the British did fight the wars outnumbered and they eventually defeated the Maratha...
British were defeated easily in 1st Anglo-Maratha War, when Marathas fought united. British managed to defeat them in 3rd Anglo-Maratha War, only after dividing the various Maratha Chiefs(Holkar, Shinde, Peshwa and Bhosale of Nagpur). Had they fought together, they would have crushed the British.
 
It should be much more difficult to invade over the mountain passes. Right now, even -2 roll for attacker in the mountains doesn't do much good, so narrow mountain passes can't effectively stop a superior foe. I think that defending in the difficult terrain, or in a province with fort, should be much more advantageous. Couple of ideas:
- local defensiveness should count also in battle, not only in sieges
- ability to entrench armies, like Supply Depot - spend money/sword mana to get bonuses for defending in a province
 
I would take it with a grain of salt, the British did fight the wars outnumbered and they eventually defeated the Maratha...
Its all quoted if you read with a proper eye.....means thats not my personal idea, just trying to make relevance.

British gained grounds in India through Divide et Impera.....

  • Both Maratha & British were able to create empire in a very short time due to the power vacuum and acquiring territories had not remained only through battlefield but also through clandestine paper-works and satisfactory exchanges in private meetings.
  • 1st two Anglo-Mysore war were lost by the British, in the last two they were allied with Maratha & Nizams. (European wars in India should be a cake bite is another misconception of many.)
  • From 1772, after the sudden death of Peshwa, internal strife marred their fate and the Maratha were no longer working united under one Peshwa and their empire could only be described as a confederacy of multiple Maratha Houses.
  • 1st & 2nd Anglo-Maratha war had roots in succession, means Maratha were fighting Maratha with one side aided by the British.
  • 3rd Anglo-Maratha was not against Maratha but the British had launched a planned and a very organised attack from all the four sides against the Pindaris, Maratha foolishly came to aid Pindaris and most of the different Maratha Houses in the neighbourhood of Pindaris fought the war separately and subsequently lost their separate wars.
But this is not the interesting part, the interesting part is as a peace treaty: "The Peshwa was offered a luxurious life near Kanpur and given an yearly pension of about 80,000 pounds" (In the currency of those days). (What a crushing defeat!)

One can compare this with Napoleon, who was confined to a small rock in the south Atlantic and given a small sum for his maintenance.
 
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Asia getting most of the updates :D ;)
A request for a new end trade node in Asia :) Please.
You can create a powerful Beijing node by controlling all of Yumen & Malacca.
 
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... In this period, Tibet was invaded successfully from the north and east, but not really from the south; the current setup causes Tibet to be dominated by an Indian power (usually Bengal) far too often. It should be at least as difficult to cross the Himalayas as any of the other mountain chains that have been added recently.

Thats true. Roughly Himalayas are three almost parallel mountain ranges with each range higher than the other while moving north-ward towards Tibet from India with a width of roughly 150-350 kms. Further North, beyond Himalayas there are Trans-Himalalayan ranges and then comes the plateau of Tibet. It was just not feasible in those days to attack northward from India beyond Nepal. The various Passes are at very high altitude and highly dangerous for movement of large armies.
 
British were defeated easily in 1st Anglo-Maratha War, when Marathas fought united. British managed to defeat them in 3rd Anglo-Maratha War, only after dividing the various Maratha Chiefs(Holkar, Shinde, Peshwa and Bhosale of Nagpur). Had they fought together, they would have crushed the British.
The British defeated the Marathas at the 2 Anglo-Maratha war despite the Marathas having over triple the forces. The Maratha also heavily outnumbered the British in the first war. In reality is was just not feasible to dispatch all of your country's forces to fight in some colonial war halfway across the globe in the way you routinely do in game. The Marathas wouldn't have any hope of resistance against the full British army. In order to make colonial wars harder there should be a way to simulate the need for forces in a countries homeland not ridiculous military buffs
 
The Duke of Wellington, after defeating the Marathas, cautioned one British general that: 'You must never allow Maratha infantry to attack head on or in close hand to hand combat as in that your army will cover itself with utter disgrace.' Even when Arthur Wellesley, the 1st Duke of Wellington, became the Prime Minister of Britain, he held the Maratha infantry in utmost respect, claiming it to be one of the best in the world. However, at the same time he noted the poor leadership of Maratha Generals, who were often responsible for their defeats.

Charles Metcalfe, one of the ablest of the British Officials in India and later acting Governor-General, wrote in 1806: 'India contains no more than two great powers, British and Maratha, and every other state acknowledges the influence of one or the other. Every inch that we recede will be occupied by them.'

Norman Gash says that the Maratha infantry was equal to that of British infantry. After the Third Anglo-Maratha War in 1818, Britain listed the Marathas as one of the Martial races to serve in the British Indian Army.

The 19th century diplomat Sir Justin Sheil commented about the British East India Company copying the French Indian army in raising an army of Indians:
'It is to the military genius of the French that we are indebted for the formation of the Indian army. Our warlike neighbours were the first to introduce into India the system of drilling native troops and converting them into a regularly disciplined force. Their example was copied by us, and the result is what we now behold.'

I hope the new formable Maratha ideas are at least half as good.
In every battle of the Anglo-Maratha wars I was able to find in my quick wikipedia search, Marathas heavily outnumbered the British, sometimes even by an order of magnitude.