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EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of October 2018

Welcome all to today’s dev diary, where I’ll be covering the long-awaited Iberian and North African map update coming in the 1.28 ‘Spain’ update.

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Nations released for the sake of example


As things currently stand, though as always things are subject to change before release, Iberia consists of 571 development over 63 provinces. This includes the Macaronesia area but now excludes Labourd, which has been returned to the French region.

In Aragon, the distinction between the Kingdom of Aragon, the Kingdom of Valencia, and the Principality of Catalonia has become more pronounced. Tarragona is now rightly in the Catalonia area, and the province of Valencia has been split so that Castello and Xativa have become separate provinces. Valencia itself has the potential to be a very rich city indeed, as the player’s actions can lead to it becoming a major producer of silk. The three major Balearic Islands have become provinces in and of themselves, linked together by a strait and comprising their own Area.

Likewise, Galicia has seen itself grow from 1 province to 4, and now has an Area all to itself.

Portugal and Granada have been gifted one additional province each: Aveiro and Malaga respectively.

Last but not least, many citizens of Navarra are looking a little confused as they wonder where their coastline has gone. Wedged between major powers and with no immediate means of escape over the ocean, Navarra will be a very challenging nation in 1.28.

New releasable nations:

Valencia: The Kingdom of Valencia was a major constituent part of the Crown of Aragon in 1444. In 1.28 the former kingdom of El Cid will be a releasable nation.

Asturias: The Kingdom of Asturias ceased to exist long before our start date, but it nicely fills the absence of releasable nations in the region.

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I’ve also taken another look at North Africa. Here we can see several new provinces along the coast, including those belonging to new nations that can emerge during the game.

The province of Demnate allows a route through the Atlas mountains; a convenient shortcut and potentially a deadly choke-point.

The Canary Islands have been split between Gran Canaria and Tenerife to represent the somewhat incomplete Castilian conquest and colonization of the islands.

For the masochists among you who play as Granada, they now have a core on the province on Ceuta.

New releasable nations:

Salé and Tétouan: Home to some of the most infamous Barbary Pirates, these nations will be releasable in 1444, and may emerge dynamically in the course of the game in the style of Habsan.

fezzan_map.png


Finally, I’ve made some minor changes to the eastern Maghreb. The province of Kairwan has been added for Tunis, and the addition of Sabha has allowed a more aesthetic redrawing of Fezzan’s borders.

That’s all for today. Next week, @Groogy will reveal some of the new features coming in the as yet unnamed Immersion pack to be released alongside 1.28.
 
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What do you mean the concept of Iberia didn't exist? Iberia is just the Greek word for what the Romans called Hispania (in the geographic sense, not politically), if anything it chronologically pre-dates Hispania. They were used synonymously since Antiquity. However, since the propaganda from the Castilian rulers eventually succeed in laying claim to the title of Spain, the word Iberia was left alone to refer to the entirety of the Peninsula.

I refer to the political concept of Iberia. It is a concept of the nineteenth century.

I'm a portuguese spanish or a spanish from Portugal!

This was the mentality of the time in which the game develops. I've only tried to say that all the time.

I'm a portuguese spanish or a spanish from Portugal

You can change porguese for castilian or for aragonese, and in those centuries, that was de mentality of all people in Europe.
 
I don't like the core claims because it's too easy. There already is an historical path for Spain to PU Portugal, and I think there should also be a path for alternative Spain (Castille+Portugal) to PU Aragon. Froming Iberia after Spain should be a long term goal that requires some effort and should only be achived in the mid-late game.

From a gameplay point of view it may be very fun. Add some requirements like having colonies in all south America and Central America and phillipines or whatever. Yeah may be fun goal for late game "Iberian talasocracy" or something but again that may be one of those cases where history surpasses fiction and in real history it was normal Spain and normal Portugal without fancy Iberia. Anyway yeah ok I'd enjoy playing to form some Iberia nation
 
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I don't like the core claims because it's too easy. There already is an historical path for Spain to PU Portugal, and I think there should also be a path for alternative Spain (Castille+Portugal) to PU Aragon. Froming Iberia after Spain should be a long term goal that requires some effort and should only be achived in the mid-late game.
Why though? There were plenty of dynastic claims and counterclaims between the three peninsular kingdoms, and they united relatively early by game standards (1580), even if it didn't last that much. The ambition to unite the entire peninsula was there for quite a while for everyone, starting with the medieval Leonese kings and ending with Charles II of Spain. It's just that the kings of Castille and Aragon got a headstart after the Castilian civil war and started using the title, while the Portuguese monarchs had to distance themselves from having Portugal be considered part of Spain after 1640, lest the other two get any odd ideas about them being part of their kingdom.

The political idea of a united Iberia constituted by Spain and Portugal came much later, when the idea that Spain was not the whole peninsula was well-established, and the old greek term had to be resurrected to portray a union instead of just an annexation.

If it was up to me, I'd probably just allow for Spain to be formed by either Castille+Aragon or Castille+Portugal, with an event-driven union given to the winner of the Castilian Civil War, and then maybe some events to try to get the throne of the remaining kingdom along the next century. I'd probably keep the Spanish namelist, though, since I suspect the weight of Castille in the union would make it the dominant power no matter who reigned, much in the way that it was despite getting an Aragonese king, or later Burgundian ones.

You'd need to change the flag, though, the current Spanish one makes no sense for a portuguese-led union. Maybe just put Philip II's red-on-yellow cross of Burgundy there from the start? It's a Habsburg import, but it is much more recognisable than four coats-of-arms bundled together.
 
Why though? There were plenty of dynastic claims and counterclaims between the three peninsular kingdoms, and they united relatively early by game standards (1580), even if it didn't last that much. The ambition to unite the entire peninsula was there for quite a while for everyone, starting with the medieval Leonese kings and ending with Charles II of Spain. It's just that the kings of Castille and Aragon got a headstart after the Castilian civil war and started using the title, while the Portuguese monarchs had to distance themselves from having Portugal be considered part of Spain after 1640, lest the other two get any odd ideas about them being part of their kingdom.

The political idea of a united Iberia constituted by Spain and Portugal came much later, when the idea that Spain was not the whole peninsula was well-established, and the old greek term had to be resurrected to portray a union instead of just an annexation.

If it was up to me, I'd probably just allow for Spain to be formed by either Castille+Aragon or Castille+Portugal, with an event-driven union given to the winner of the Castilian Civil War, and then maybe some events to try to get the throne of the remaining kingdom along the next century. I'd probably keep the Spanish namelist, though, since I suspect the weight of Castille in the union would make it the dominant power no matter who reigned, much in the way that it was despite getting an Aragonese king, or later Burgundian ones.

This.
And also I see no reason why we can't have both. End game tends to get boring for Spain unless you are hell-bent on a mission of all the world conquest . We can get those events like we want for Spain and then also formable Iberia with extra requirements not just having all the provinces in Iberia
 
Why though? There were plenty of dynastic claims and counterclaims between the three peninsular kingdoms, and they united relatively early by game standards (1580), even if it didn't last that much. The ambition to unite the entire peninsula was there for quite a while for everyone, starting with the medieval Leonese kings and ending with Charles II of Spain. It's just that the kings of Castille and Aragon got a headstart after the Castilian civil war and started using the title, while the Portuguese monarchs had to distance themselves from having Portugal be considered part of Spain after 1640, lest the other two get any odd ideas about them being part of their kingdom.

Why it should be difficult to achieve? Because it's fun! Sure you can form Spain in 1500s and run along with it until the end of the game OR you can still do that, in two different combinations, plus still have a later tag to look forward to. As Portugal had to distance itself from the ideia of Spain, so would Aragon, if Castille+Portugal had formed Spain first. Aragon would build its identity as a mediterranean power, looking for support from France as Portugal did from England, and cracking Aragon as Castille+Portugal would not be easy. Over time the name "Spain" would be associated with Castille+Portugal and in order to integrate Aragon by conquest or guile, a new idea of "Iberia" would emerge, in order to subdue the Aragonese. That's fun! And plausible. Make it so.

If it was up to me, I'd probably just allow for Spain to be formed by either Castille+Aragon or Castille+Portugal, with an event-driven union given to the winner of the Castilian Civil War, and then maybe some events to try to get the throne of the remaining kingdom along the next century. I'd probably keep the Spanish namelist, though, since I suspect the weight of Castille in the union would make it the dominant power no matter who reigned, much in the way that it was despite getting an Aragonese king, or later Burgundian ones.

Totally agree with the first part, but not with the second. While I'm sure Castillian would be the dominant language in any union, for gameplay reasons, you want the province names to be of your primary culture. That way you can form Spain as Castille, or as Portugal, or as Aragon, and you'll get Spain in three different flavours.

You'd need to change the flag, though, the current Spanish one makes no sense for a portuguese-led union. Maybe just put Philip II's red-on-yellow cross of Burgundy there from the start? It's a Habsburg import, but it is much more recognisable than four coats-of-arms bundled together.

The current Spanish Flag is much cooler than the Cross of Burgundy and a Castille+Portugal Spain would have the respective CoA in a similar fashion.
 
I think dynamic flags for formables could be a fun (moddable) feature for this immersion pack tbh. We've all seen the flag Portugal should get if they form Spain rather than Aragon/Castile, but why not a Union Jack with the St. Andrew's Cross atop St. George's if they form Great Britain after having annexed England? Maybe a dynamic red or grey Scandinavian flag if Denmark/Norway form Scandinavia, too (the present one is clearly intended for a Swedish-centered union.)

Whilst we're at it, simply make union-state formables have colours implicity tied to the dominant forming partner as well. Although one could stipulate that Portuguese Spain would inevitably come to be dominated by Castile much like Scotland was after scoring an IRL PU over England, having a darker yellow for Scots-GB or darker green for Portu-Spain would be a simple way to differentiate them at a glance.

Finally, capital changes shouldn't be automatic either. Instead trigger an event with the option to change capitals from Valencia/Lisbon to Madrid or Edinburgh to London etc. Oh and why not rename Spanish ideas to 'Castillian Ideas' and create Spain an entirely new idea set (preferrably with a free colonist idea so she can better colonize Latin America to the extent she did historically.)

Sorry for perhaps lurching off-topic, but the above situation would be the ideal solution to the quasi-historical possibillity of Portuguese-led-Spain, and I'd merely like to lay-out the larger implications such a new mechanic could have on the game.
 
Personaly, I consider the culture to be very similar in both areas (and also in the baleares), so it makes sense to be the same culture for that. The issue is that there is not a common name to represent itself in the 3 areas and if one of the names is used it seems that it is trying to "eat" the other 2 (this section of article is a good reflection of the situation, where they have used the 3 names at the same time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluricentric_language#Catalan–Valencian–Balearic ), so it will be difficult to use a name that satisfies everyone in any case.

I completely disagree with you. I can also say that Castillian an Leonese are similar, so Castillian only has to be represented (just an example). To accept that Catalonian and Valencian are that similar that they should be represented in a single culture is non historical, realistic and it also affects to the gameplay making it more unhistorical. Imagine you are playing with Valencia and catalonian separatist rebels spawn... tadan! They get a core it never existed! And why it never existed in the past? Because Valencia has it's own culture and kingdom and no catalonian rebels could possibly spawn. So please guys, I suggest to stack to the reality and to abandon the modern nationalism thoughs.
We want the game the most realistic as possible in these matters for a proper inmersion (and for an inmersion pack I think that real inmersion is needed).
What would you think if it would be the other way around? I mean changing the name of Catalonian culture to Valencian. In such case I'm sure that most of you will disagree, me included.
 
Today is the national day of Spain! (commemorative day of the discovery of America).

It would be nice to get some updates today ;)

Besides: get ready because most people rest today which means you might get lots of message from Spanish people. Me I'm going to the mountain with my bicycle so we have a truce
 
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As I posted in my suggestion thread, the population distribution in Spain at the late 1400s (source: http://ch.guimaraes.pt/uploads/actas/1CHI/vol1/1chi-vol1-007.pdf) was the following:
  • Crown of Castille: 4,665,389
    • Galicia: 327,783
    • Asturias: 101,285
    • León: 562,936
    • Basque Country: 180,000
    • Old Castille: 1,308,180
    • Toledo: 762,024
    • Extremadura: 380,841
    • Andalusia (without Granada): 745,549
    • Granada:204,245 (note this was after the Conquest, so this particular region could have a different population in 1444)
    • Murcia: 92,546
  • Crown of Aragon: 855,000
    • Aragon (Kingdom): 250,000
    • Catalonia: 300,000
    • Valencia: 255,000
    • Majorca: 50,000
  • Navarre: 120,000
  • Portugal: 1,000,000

It is very clear the current province distribution does not match very well with the population one. For example, Catalonia with 300,000 inhabitants has 5 provinces and Toledo with 762,000 has 5 too.
 
As I posted in my suggestion thread, the population distribution in Spain at the late 1400s (source: http://ch.guimaraes.pt/uploads/actas/1CHI/vol1/1chi-vol1-007.pdf) was the following:
  • Crown of Castille: 4,665,389
    • Galicia: 327,783
    • Asturias: 101,285
    • León: 562,936
    • Basque Country: 180,000
    • Old Castille: 1,308,180
    • Toledo: 762,024
    • Extremadura: 380,841
    • Andalusia (without Granada): 745,549
    • Granada:204,245 (note this was after the Conquest, so this particular region could have a different population in 1444)
    • Murcia: 92,546
  • Crown of Aragon: 855,000
    • Aragon (Kingdom): 250,000
    • Catalonia: 300,000
    • Valencia: 255,000
    • Majorca: 50,000
  • Navarre: 120,000
  • Portugal: 1,000,000
It is very clear the current province distribution does not match very well with the population one. For example, Catalonia with 300,000 inhabitants has 5 provinces and Toledo with 762,000 has 5 too.

It is a helpful information but I would not relate the number of provinces or it's distribution with the population, instead I would take it in consideration to set a proper development.
 
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It is a helpful information but I would not relate the number of privinces or it's distribution with the population, instead I would take it in consideration to set a proper development.
Well, population and provinces don't have to be directly proportional, but I find very weird some sparsely populated regions having a lot of tiny provinces while some of the most densely ones have just a few big and blocky provinces.
And I don't know how development will be, but prior to this patch it was a bit ahistorical (that 44-development Catalonia, even without Taragona, vs that 49-development León+Extremadura) and seeing how new provinces have been added in the regions with less population, I fear the disparity will be even bigger after the update.
 
Today is the national day of Spain! (commemorative day of the Constitution).

Jesus Christ. Not even this is right!

Day of Constitution is December 6. Today the arrival of Colon to America is commemorated.
 
Now, let's compare to the province distrubution after the patch:

  • Crown of Castille: 4,665,389
    • Galicia: 327,783 (4 provinces): 81,945 inhabitants per province
    • Asturias: 101,285 (1 Province): 101,285 inhabitants per province
    • León: 562,936 (3 provinces): 187,645 inhabitants per province
    • Basque Country: 180,000 (1 province): 180,000 inhabitants per province
    • Old Castille: 1,308,180 (7 provinces): 187,645 inhabitants per province
    • Toledo: 762,024 (5 provinces): 153,004 inhabitants per province
    • Extremadura: 380,841 (2 provinces): 190,420 inhabitants per province
    • Andalusia (without Granada): 745,549 (5 provinces): 149,109 inhabitants per province
    • Granada:204,245 (note this was after the Conquest, so this particular region could have a different population in 1444) (4 provinces): 50,561 inhabitants per province, but it also includes Gibraltar
    • Murcia: 92,546 (1 province): 92,546 inhabitants per province

  • Crown of Aragon: 855,000
    • Aragon (Kingdom): 250,000 (4 provinces): 62,500 inhabitants per province
    • Catalonia: 300,000 (5 provinces): 60,000 inhabitants per province
    • Valencia: 255,000 (4 provinces): 63,750 inhabitants per province
    • Majorca: 50,000 (3 provinces): 16,667 inhabitants per province

  • Navarre: 120,000 (1 province): 120,000 inhabitants per province

  • Portugal: 1,000,000 (9 provinces + Azores + Madeira=11, although the last 2 were just recently discovered): 111,111 inhabitants per province or 90,909 inhabitants per province (counting the islands)
I know, I know, it does not have to be the same proportion in evey region, but I think this shows what regions are a bit forgotten
 
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Such a good thing that we have development to account for the differences in wealth and population of provinces in game.
 
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