EUIV - Development Diary - 11th of February 2020

[Grease5]

I like this a lot, what I and @Johan want though is that you don't benefit as much if you own literally everything. That it is better for you if there are other nations to defend.

I think the problem is that it doesn't really involve any "defending." The bonus is simply for them existing, and as an earlygame catholic 50+ tags existing isn't really something you or any other defender has anything to do with, and late game would need a great misallocation of resources to uphold (especially when someone else can steal it at any time). I think these ranks should be tied to something active on the player's part, you know, actually defending your faith from it's enemies, instead of...what exactly? Not blobbing into same religion land, or preventing the natural course of the game that is every other tag doing so? You've already got that DotF CB but I don't think I've ever seen myself or anyone else use it once because it's almost never available.

 

[ZeppelinArmada]

Could scale DotF through a mix of number of tags with that religion + states/provinces/dev that isn't controlled by the defender(or maybe have the DotF's own states/provinces/dev contribute less to the DotF rank?).

That way you're not as punished by Ai eating eachother up and don't have to go in and break them into smaller nations every now and then to retain the bonii... and you also don't get as much out of DotF if you're the one eating up your religious bros.

Just throwing ideas out here to see what sticks.

 

[KaiserArg]

That's not states anymore, it's governance capacity. It means he's using 190 out of 500.

It was a joke, 190 states even in the current game would be the entire world

 

[Makkay]

Super strong Ottomans are going for Islam Unification, owns 90% of the sunni land, claims DotF, can really defend Faith - gets weak bonuses.

Sunni OPM somehow claims DotF title, cant defend Faith - gets super bonuses, only because theres 100 sunni OPM's.

Am I missing something?

 

[Groogy]

What's wrong with that? You already have the mechanism in place; this is how old HRE imperial authority used to work i.e. points for beating off France.

Why not adapt it for defender if it gives a better way to measure performance? The title "defender" is suggestive, after all.

Best of all, a defender won't get many points if it already owns everything and has no religious allies to defend.

I was agreeing with you with a stupid joke attached to it

 

[Mindel]

So DotF Mana?

It is not "mana" if you don't spend it on anything It's just points to measure performance.

 

[Alfray Stryke]

It is not "mana" if you don't spend it on anything It's just points to measure performance.

So DoTF XP?

 

[nfmarque]

What is provoke rebels? Sending arms to rebels? Is it limited to a rebel type? Can i arm pretenders if my king is bad? Do i still have to wait for the pretender rebels to capture territory or can i accept demands right away?
Thanks.

 

[Mindel]

So DoTF XP?

You can lose them if you slack off.

DotF stability maybe?

 

[MatthieuG7]

I, for one, like the "number of country" requirement: I want more incentives to keep countries on the map, and not just gobble them up.

 

[grommile]

The second feature of today is a little thing that just lets you get on with your business a bit faster by not having to sit and wait for rebels to pop so you can deal with them immediately.

Sometimes, it's the little things that make me happy <3

 

[Andrzej2]

It's ridiculous that we can see progress towards rebelion and you are going further that path. Rebellions are nothing, they are no threat whatsoever. They need complete rework and most of the info about them should be hidden from the player.

 

[Grease5]

You can lose them if you slack off.

DotF stability maybe?

Could always just make it more like the EoC, make it not so incredibly easy for it to change hands every couple years and give it bonuses you have to actively work towards, if someone's been dotf for like 50 years and did a lot of defending some literal who country who happened on 500 gold at a good time shouldn't just be able to snatch it away.

Hell you've already gone and given it a fancy ornate emblem, it's already halfway there.

 

[ZeppelinArmada]

You can lose them if you slack off.

DotF stability maybe?

Some sort of DotF slider perhaps...

 

[jacopus95]

no it didn't made any sense. it's the "religion = anti science" meme that really needs to go

Well, that meme is there for a reason. It might not make a big sense for the musulman religions, but at that time christian europe was still subjugated to the pope on multiple matters. We all know old church censorship.

 

[Mindel]

It requires the faction to have already reached a progression of 50% before this option can be picked and when done it will cause those rebels to appear 50% stronger than they would have usually. You can also not use this feature at war so you can not rebel bomb your opponents with it.

One adjustment that would help prevent it being abused to ambush foreign armies passing by with military access would be to have the button not spring the rebels right away, but rather make them jump at some randomly decided point in the next month (or three months). You could do this by making the button randomly choose a number from 1 to 30 (or 90) and then count down that many days before making rebels pop.

 

[Sharples88]

Can we also have a button to revoke DoF? Having to lose a war or dishonour a CTA seems rather unorthodox when there's no other way to just simply revoke. Also, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to allow countries to refuse a CTA which loses them DoF, then immediately buy DoF again (which makes zero sense) with 500 ducats. That's virtually nothing for countries like France and England and it's always fixed at that price.

 

[TheDungen]

Is counting the number of countries the right way to measure success for defender of the faith? This seems to punish defenders if large numbers of small countries start eating each other and consolidate into larger powers. But this phenomenon doesn't seem to have much to do with religion, really.

Maybe a better way to measure would be total development or number of provinces in that faith.



Addendum

Here is an idea: how about measuring defenders of the faith by actual job performance? That is, making defenders earn credit by actually defending fellow nations from infidels.

Every new defender starts at level 1, and earns points each time it answers a defender call to arms and successfully defends. It loses some credit if the war is lost, and it loses a lot if it either declines the call or renders "unsatisfactory condottieri performance". When the defender reaches a certain number of points, it gets promoted (or demoted).

How much each war is worth depends on how big the infidel opponents are. If you keep fighting off Ottomans on behalf of others, you deserve a prize for it.

I think it's to keep them from eating other countries of their own religion themselves.

 

[MatthieuG7]

Yes, it never was really a penalty that deterred people from spending that 500 ducats if they could. Instead we're trying to put emphasis on the burden of being a Defender of the Faith

Totally forgot it even existed until your comment.

 

[Nyrael]

What happened to the +5% increase in technology cost? Why did you remove it? It made sense with the whole "i'm blindly following the religion, F** Galileo for that book"

Not this BLEEP again.
Galileo was not in trouble because of his books. As a matter of fact, the Church defended him for a long time.
The problem with Galileo was that he was an a**hole who insulted everyone who disagreed with him. For instance, if you believed that the Moon affected the tides (which we now know is true), Galileo showered you with insults and belittlement, calling you a fool that believed in fairy tales.
What ultimately got him locked up was that he insulted a Pope who went crazy from paranoia (to go into mroe details, the Pope commissioned him to write some book and Galileo insulted him in it - honestly, if you did that to a company that commissioned you today, they'd rob you blind). Insulting the most powerful man in Europe and making enemies of everyone who did not suck up to him was what got him into trouble.
And when his theories ultimately got proven true, some in the Church wanted to build him a golden statue.

Not to mention that almost every scholar in this period was deeply religious and that the biggest sponsor of science was the Church (and had been since Middle Ages, when they were the sole sponsor of it in Europe). Even the Counter-Reformation, which was a continent-wide fight against Protestantism, was famous for how much it helped Science and Education. The scientific branch that actually suffered was Medicine because the Church was not hot on human experimentation or even dissecting dead human bodies (though even there concessions were known to be made).
Where the Church was troublesome was the censorship of free speech and opposition to new ideas (but this was the problem everywhere, even in secular countries of the period). But that would be better represented by costlier National Ideas. Free speech did not affect scientific progress much, unless we discuss political sciences that is.

The "Science Vs. Religion" meme itself derives from certain Protestant sects opposing scientists because most Protestants follow the Literal Interpretation of the Bible (aka, everything said in it is literal truth) thus they got pretty insulted when their beliefs got challenged. But most other religions take their Holy Texts non-literally,and Scholarship was a popular hobby among the clergy across the world. And even this meme mostly became a thing after the EU4 period.