Europa Universalis IV - Development Diary 14th of June 2022

[Sean1699]

Thank you for the nerf to the Caroleans, almost had a heart attack last week when I saw their bonuses. I think they will be in a much better position now compared to other special regiments and it also makes more sense historical.

Can't wait to play all these nations, looking forward to release

With the nerf to Caroleans in this dev diary, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to take the allotment system or ever recruit caroleans. Having only two thirds of your true force limit and at best five units (FIVE UNITS) of carolean infantry per 100 swedish and/or Finnish development (which is just about or maybe a little under the starting development of all those culture provinces) isn‘t just not quite worth it - it’s completely useless. At that point why not avoid the force limit debuff and hire a 20k merc stack or something? They’d do a whole lot more damage than your 5k caroleans which would probably just end up stackwiped or merged into a stack where their already poor buffs are even less noticeable. Players need a reason to actually pick these units and as they stand there isn’t one.

@Ogele Now the update in the dev response is an improvement but still, if you double the dev of your Swedish/Finnish provinces and now end up with 20 units of Caroleans, they’re still going to get trashed with those modifiers. Adding the 5% discipline to them then reduces their amount to what, 15? 5 more units make much more of a difference than 5% discipline. If these units are meant to be used, they need to be available in a worthwhile amount with modifiers that would make them effective against a larger force in whatever amount they are available in. EU4’s way of making smaller forces more effective historically has been to blast them with some OP modifiers to actually make that possible ex. Prussia, militarization, quality ideas. If the caroleans are meant to be basically Swedish Prussian space marines, then they have to actually have the modifiers that make them that way, otherwise they’re just unnecessary (and seemingly difficult to code for based on what has been said on that) bloat.

This is how I see it, at least.

Edit: Also, the allotment system reform seems sort of weak for the effort you’re putting in to get it. I agree with the others on here who say it would be more interesting to hinder Sweden’s manpower recovery (more than -10% which is bordering meaningless and already outweighed by the +20% in Sweden’s NIs) and maybe reinforcement speed, total manpower etc. and REALLY buff their land force limit (more than +10% which is again bordering meaningless). This would definitely give Sweden a unique feel - you can have very large armies for your size but reinforcing them will be much more difficult requiring some extra tactical thought from players. Again though, these modifiers, both buffs and debuffs, need to be large enough that they’re really felt otherwise they won’t matter.

 

[PrussicAcid]

@Ogele First, thank you for this new heavy DD.

I had a question: Are any new Tier 1 Government Reforms planed?

Currently, when you are reforming from a Tribal Government to anything else, you will lose the special flavor some TAGs have acquired patches after patches. Those who come immediately to my mind are:
- Tribal Federations (Aq & Qara Qoyunlu, Yas) you can still go for a horde, I know.
- Gond Kingdoms (Central India)
- Polynesian Tribes & Polynesian Kingdoms (Samoa, Tonga and others around)
- Matrilineal System (Nubian TAGs)
- Other tribal reforms added with Origins DLC

Would it be possible to create simples T1 Government Reforms for these TAGs encompassing their past flavor?

 

[assasindroid-1]

With the Caroleans being based off of Swedish/Finnish dev, those would be lost if you were to form the Roman Empire. Have you considered adding a tag so that if Rome is founded by the Scandinavians, they can do it from all Roman cultured provinces?

 

[Nostalgium]

While I don't like to @ devs I didn't see anything about Agder > Christiansand in there @Ogele.

It's been such a gripe for me for so long, and I'll be so sad if it's not fixed in this update. Won't someone think of the poor Christiansanders? I don't think they want their love for rectangular streets to be confused with the fascination with hermetical herring we have up our way!

 

[RedT3rror]

-33% land force limit modifier in exchange for 20% manpower modifier and a mediocre special unit, that will won't ever surpass two dozens regiments is a bit of a joke, don't you think?

 

[nobodyinparticular]

I imagine that they are doing so many influence modifiers in your government reforms because thats how it would actually be. If you strengthen noble privilege's, your nobility are gonna have more influence. Its to add a pro/con to them. There are some that reduce influence. Reform your government to take away power from the Burghers, then once you revoke the form go to what you actually want

IMO you should always be able to revoke privileges, but it would come with a stab hit and spawn rebels if influence is higher than loyalty.

 

[Jespoke]

Espionage ideas letting you puppet your nobility for extra Absolutism is really cool.
Some of these look way better than others, but that is to be expected at this point.
There are a few Influence modifiers that are colored red/green instead of the usual yellow.
Is that an optional Development Efficiency modifier I see there?? Unlocked by Economic ideas, but any tall game gets those anyway.

 

[Nostalgium]

Now, for a comment on this DD on something other than Norse - Caroleans.

I think the unit itself seems fine - they were shock infantry and drilled to have high morale, so extra shock damage and less morale damage taken seems on brand - but everything around it is still off. I sincerely believe you should be able to recruit your entire army as Caroleans, similar to the Russian Strelsy, and that the force limit/max MP should essentially be reversed:

You should get a higher force limit. Sweden's army per capita was large. You also cannot balance this with less tax/production as I've seen suggested, because the Swedish land reforms that lay the groundwork for the recruitment of Caroleans also effectivized tax collection and increased yields for the state. The balance, instead, should be lower manpower recovery speed. Indeed, it would not be wrong to simply flip the current modifiers, and give Sweden 33% Force Limit but -20% Manpower to represent that they could field more men per capita, but their recruitment pool was limited.

The limitation on Carolean regiments to Swedish/Finnish provinces is also bizarre and must go. It seems based in the fact that most Caroleans were Swedish/Finnish, but that is because most of the Swedish Empire was Sweden and Finland. A Sweden that has conquered Norway should absolutely be recruiting Caroleans from there.

At the end of the day, I still think the Caroleans are best served as modifiers to all infantry Sweden recruits. Their special unit should be Finnish Cavalry, which was indeed an elite unit, highly praised, highly recognizable (with their birch shoes), and, crucially, still works within the Carolean army, which relied quite heavily on cavalry. We focus a lot on the infantry because the uniforms are slick and the steel discipline to march into withering volley fire is inspiring, but in for example the Battle of Fraustadt, Swedish cavalry outnumbered the infantry by near enough to 3:2. Make Carolean Infantry a modifier, and make Sweden's special unit a cavalry unit with extra Shock value. Possibly a pip, even.

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

Alternate history. The game is full of it. Seven cities? Native Americans trashing the Europeans and sending them running? Aztec Invasions? Marauding (horse lord?) Teutonic knights? The list goes on and on.

Oh, its also already in the game. You just have to annoyingly use a custom nation to access it.

Not to mention that WC is a pretty common goal for many campaigns and exploits such as Poland forming Prussia to stack modifiers, or France going for Ireland and then into Scandinavia. Kind of historical and realistic, right?

 

[0yvind]

I am also relieved that Norway doesn't get the norse revival thing because:

1. I'm tired of people only focusing on our viking past (as Nostaligum nentioned).
2. It would be unfair to the Swedes and Danes who have the same history.
3. So many developers (and film directors) make vikings out to be these over-the-top bloodthirsty, noble barbarians who raid and conquer the world in blood and do nothing else (which is such a meme).

All that said, if they were to make it an option, I hope they make it a choice for a united Scandinavian empire, so all Scandinavian countries have a chance to do it. And if they make it possible, I also hope they include some realistic response to this from the christian countries of Europe. Going backwards 400-500 years to suddenly start terrorizing Europe again would likely make that country a free-for-all for any christian neighbour. It should be insanely difficult.

 

[headed9hydra]

It's just a matter of where I think they should put dev time, as I said. If they had chosen to add it, I would have shrugged my shoulders and moved on, but until they do, I will disagree with the notion that they should.

And the reason I mentioned Leif Erikson is that Greenland/Iceland keeps popping up as a place where Norse could have survived, when in fact these places were Christianized before inland Sweden. I don't mind Vinland as a fun alternate history Viking nation - I mean come on, we've all done a Vinland custom nation start, haven't we? - but fact is that if the Vikings colonized Vinland and stayed there, they would've likely been Christians too.

At the end of the day, I just don't think Norse should be "officially" endorsed by a mission tree, because that comes with calls for flavour and mechanics for the religion: It would now be a reward at the end of a mission tree, and players would (rightly!) treat it as such. If it should be added at all, it should be as a potential province in inland Sweden you could use to trigger a revolt and collapse from.

Closing, I also have some admitable bias around specifically adding Norse as flavour for Norway: I am myself a Norwegian with an interest in history, and I am so tired of Norway's history always being boiled down to "vikings", when we have more history of not being vikings than we do being so.

Okay but norse is already more or less fleshed out for custom nations and such, it already exists, they would have to do one event to let us have it without custom nations and thats it

 

[decrexendo]

1. No. We might consider it though.
2. These are new and unique state edicts. With each Age this one gets replaced with something else
View attachment 850019
Age of Discovery
View attachment 850020
Age of Reformation
View attachment 850021
Age of Absolutism
View attachment 850022
Age of Revolution

Again, values and modifiers are not final.

As for (1), giving more nations access to Elective monarchies might make the Polish Sejm feel less unique. Plus, it would render it impossible for the player to claim the thrones of such nations with that reform, as they would always have a strong heir. Overall the change proposed may make many European nations less fun to play and Europe as a whole less dynamic.

(2) These look exceptional, with the exception of one. The State Integration Edict for the Age of Absolutism may need a different modifier to be as relevant as the others. The player probably won't be stating many new provinces that haven't been under their control for the better part of a century by that point in the game.
Instead, I propose either a "-% Construction Cost" , "-% Construction Time" , or "+1 Building Slot" modifier.
The explanation being that Manufactories are expensive, take a long time to build, and will be key in spreading (and possibly spawning) the upcoming institution of the same name in 1650. This is a time period of rapid commercialization and commodification of goods, so it mostly fits with the time period. The Edict might then be called: "Subsidized Construction Edict" , "Commercial Exclusivity Edict" , "Land Reassessment Edict" , "Industrial Zoning Edict" , etc. Some of these names contain minor historical anachronisms; they're mainly just to get ideas flowing.

The Caroleans you see here are not set in stone. What I presented was more the idea of changing the balance of the unit as right now there were many (justified) arguments that the whole Swedish army should be Caroleans than them being a special unit per se.
For example, right at this moment, the Allotment System and the Carolean look like this:
View attachment 850038View attachment 850039
+ 1 Carolean Regiment per 10 Dev (though this idea is a little bit on thin ice)

Personally, I am a firm believer that good game development comes from an open dialogue from the players and the developers, so I am more than open to hear suggestions, constructive crticism and ideas for balancing them.

This vision of Carolean infantry is a great one, and fits well for Sweden and its play-style. We're on the right track with this, however, one small note is that Sweden gets +20% Manpower Recovery Speed in its national ideas. It would make sense, then, that the player might sacrifice this bonus for Carolean infantry, but I have a slightly different vision.
What if the Allotment System reform didn't carry the Manpower recovery speed as a malus, instead putting the penalties on the infantry? Basically, what if Caroleans had something like -50% reinforcement speed and -50% morale recovery speed? Maybe they spawn like Manchu Banners with no manpower, no morale, and they take forever to build to max strength. This would effectively represent the harsh reality and difficulties that the Swedes faced regarding the recruitment of experienced, trained, professional soldiers. Especially in the wake of a disastrous battle, the Caroleans would be hampered for a long time to come. If the played did not have other regulars in the army to act as a plan B, then such a lost battle could then cost them the war.
Thus, these modifiers would also incentivize a hybridized army that can actually make use of the Swedish manpower recovery speed.

Thank you so much Ogele for your reception of our feedback on the proposed changes and additions across the board! Take care.

 

[BadOrc]

Now, for a comment on this DD on something other than Norse - Caroleans.

I think the unit itself seems fine - they were shock infantry and drilled to have high morale, so extra shock damage and less morale damage taken seems on brand - but everything around it is still off. I sincerely believe you should be able to recruit your entire army as Caroleans, similar to the Russian Strelsy, and that the force limit/max MP should essentially be reversed:

You should get a higher force limit. Sweden's army per capita was large. You also cannot balance this with less tax/production as I've seen suggested, because the Swedish land reforms that lay the groundwork for the recruitment of Caroleans also effectivized tax collection and increased yields for the state. The balance, instead, should be lower manpower recovery speed. Indeed, it would not be wrong to simply flip the current modifiers, and give Sweden 33% Force Limit but -20% Manpower to represent that they could field more men per capita, but their recruitment pool was limited.

The limitation on Carolean regiments to Swedish/Finnish provinces is also bizarre and must go. It seems based in the fact that most Caroleans were Swedish/Finnish, but that is because most of the Swedish Empire was Sweden and Finland. A Sweden that has conquered Norway should absolutely be recruiting Caroleans from there.

At the end of the day, I still think the Caroleans are best served as modifiers to all infantry Sweden recruits. Their special unit should be Finnish Cavalry, which was indeed an elite unit, highly praised, highly recognizable (with their birch shoes), and, crucially, still works within the Carolean army, which relied quite heavily on cavalry. We focus a lot on the infantry because the uniforms are slick and the steel discipline to march into withering volley fire is inspiring, but in for example the Battle of Fraustadt, Swedish cavalry outnumbered the infantry by near enough to 3:2. Make Carolean Infantry a modifier, and make Sweden's special unit a cavalry unit with extra Shock value. Possibly a pip, even.

I dont know if adding the "Finnish Cavalry" as a special unit for Sweden would really make that much of a sense during the Carolean era. most of the Cav was Dragoons located from sweden proper. as you mentioned the Battle of Fraustadt here is a list of all the Cavalry that took part in the battle of Fraustadt.

Commander: Ernst Detlof von Krassow
Valackregementet (2 skvadroner)
Livdragonregementet (4 skvadroner)
Second Line Bremiska dragonregementet (4 skvadroner)

Commanders
Carl Gustaf Rehnskiöld
Arvid Axel Mardefelt
Axel Sparre

Norra skånska kavalleriregementet (8 skvadroner)
Nylands kavalleriregemente (4 skvadroner)
Svenska adelsfanan (3 skvadroner)

Reserv
Pommerska dragonregementet (5 skvadroner)
Verdiska dragonregementet (1 skvadron)

Commander Alexander Hummerhielm
Skånska ståndsdragonerna (4 skvadroner)
Second Line Verdiska dragonregementet (4 skvadroner)

This is total of 39 Cavalry Squrdrons And Only 4 of these are based from Finland (Nylands kavalleriregemente)
I am not against your thought process here. but adding "a special unit from Finland" after the reforms by Charles X would not make that much sense, If we would instead place it during the 30 years war and Gustavus adolphus well yeah then maybe.

 

[JCommander]

There are Zoroastrian cities but no Norse religion cities, at least Greenland should have been Norse, you make us sad

Zoroastrianism still exists today, while the Norse religion was extinct 300 years before the start date.

 

[Nostalgium]

I am not against your thought process here. but adding "a special unit from Finland" after the reforms by Charles X would not make that much sense, If we would instead place it during the 30 years war and Gustavus adolphus well yeah then maybe.

I would suggest that it also become available sooner, yes. I agree that placing it post-Carolean reforms would no longer work, and instead, the special cavalry should be added early, and the modifiers for the infantry later. It certainly works a hell of a lot better than representing the general recruitment method of Sweden, literally the opposite of a special unit, as a special unit, I'm sure you'll agree.

 

[AtlantisSC]

I am also relieved that Norway doesn't get the norse revival thing because:

1. I'm tired of people only focusing on our viking past (as Nostaligum nentioned).
2. It would be unfair to the Swedes and Danes who have the same history.
3. So many developers (and film directors) make vikings out to be these over-the-top bloodthirsty, noble barbarians who raid and conquer the world in blood and do nothing else (which is such a meme).

All that said, if they were to make it an option, I hope they make it a choice for a united Scandinavian empire, so all Scandinavian countries have a chance to do it. And if they make it possible, I also hope they include some realistic response to this from the christian countries of Europe. Going backwards 400-500 years to suddenly start terrorizing Europe again would likely make that country a free-for-all for any christian neighbour. It should be insanely difficult.

I’m not sure why people keep saying they’re tired of it. As many have said, you don’t have to pick
It if you don’t want. We’re not expecting a huge portion of the Norway mission tree devoted to going viking. A simple event or end mission reward that converts your country or just a province to Norse is all we want. It really doesn’t need to overshadow everything else?

Why not let your fellow players request a feature that they want without being “relieved” it’s not happening. It just seems so selfish to me ESPECIALLY given it could have absolutely no impact on your gameplay but would let us have more fun?

 

[Lord Sheogorath]

I hope non-standard estates were taken into consideration while adding these new government reforms. It would be disappointing if Indian nations couldn't select most of these because they have the Vaisyas/Jains replacing Burghers and Rajputs/Marathas replacing Nobility.

 

[Rullino]

Almost all of the new management reforms have the drawback of absolutism. I did not like this situation. In my opinion, monarchies are not preferable to republics and theocracies.

I agree with you, republics are great for the reform progress given by their republican tradition, you can make your general/admiral leader which makes it great for roleplay and getting OP rulers after getting lots of Army/Navy tradition, same with theocracies later on.

The issue with theocracies is that their isn't enough flavour, you can't remove bad leaders like in monarchies and republics, you can't see their stats, they impact your estates loyalty, even picking an Imam or a local preacher, which should be better at ruling a theocracy angers the estates, the reforms being too slow to reach makes it harder to reach great reforms.

Republics are fun, especially for Milan's military dictatorship reaching +15 absolutism once you complete the reforms.

The difference between military dictatorship/board of admirals/pirate King and theocratic elections is that you won't know their skills since it's just about preferring one estate over the other, while for the naval/land leader as ruler you can know their skills by their pips, the higher the pips, the higher the skills.

I got 5/4/5, 4/6/4 and 3/3/4 leaders because I fought alot of battles, IDK why the paradox community seems to hate this way of picking rulers, it's not made for playing peaceful and developing your land like the Netherlands but it does give you an incentive to start wars, increase army tradition and if you're good enough you can also profit off coalitions as the Prussian Stratocracy or Milan attacking enemies across the alps.

If theocracies showed stats or at least let us remove bad leaders at cost of Devotion and/or prestige it might make it enjoyable and possibly something worth trying.

I had a 60 years old who's 1/2/1 and the heir being 5/6/3 and I couldn't remove him unless I made him general by picking monastic order which forces me into a Duchy rank just to make leader as General, 5% tax won't help that much compared to the monastic order's - 20% Fort maintenance.

 

[strqfzd911]

Teutonic Theocratic Holy Horde:

Paradox: "This is fine"

10% chance of finding a lost Norse Colony in Greenland:

Paradox: "This is too a-historical!"

 

[amaromarn]

this all looks great!
That said, the +33% colonial range from "great navigators of the north" seems redundant by the time you can circumnavigate.

iirc you can use fleet basing rights to complete circumnavigation far beyond your colonial range if you optimize for it with a strategic ally or two. allowing you to potentially make good use of that range early