HOI4 Dev Diary - Armored Cars - The new horsey boys!

[Áurum]

This is a little ridiculous... The game is more fun when each of the major sides has a chance to win, and frankly could possibly have happened if a certain number of things occurred in a different manner. Something utterly impossible like a Communist takeover in Japan is different, as it would require a complete transformation of Japanese society.

Japan shouldn't be able to go Communist. Not every country should be able to take any ideology. In Kaiserreich Japan's situation is very similar to vanilla, and they can be everything from a democracy to a national populist dictatorship and a military dictatorship. But they can't go Syndicalist, because it's simply stupid. Germany and Austria can't go Syndicalist either, because some things break immersion and gameplay.

 

[Desty12345]

Japan shouldn't be able to go Communist. Not every country should be able to take any ideology. In Kaiserreich Japan's situation is very similar to vanilla, and they can be everything from a democracy to a national populist dictatorship and a military dictatorship. But they can't go Syndicalist, because it's simply stupid. Germany and Austria can't go Syndicalist either, because some things break immersion and gameplay.

Or you know...you could just let the option be and set in the game rules what you want japan to be...and let everyone else who has no problem with more OPTIONS have their fun.
It´s a sandbox not a simulation, there are plenty of options and mods to configure the game to what you want. No reason to restrict paradox or any other player just because you don´t like a choice the game gives you.
I play 95% of my games historically, but I couldn´t care less if somebody wants to play a communist japan in their singleplayer run and ally the soviets or whatever.

 

[Ossiv]

Combat and Intel
We have split the recon support company into several now so that it can be tailored to the division type you have, and the speed it needs to move at because now the speed on the recon company will be limiting the whole division. Meaning that if you scout your trucks with cavalry they will need to move at cavalry speed.
We have:

• Cavalry Recon Detachment - regular horsey boys you are used to. Cheap, but not that fast.
• Motorized Recon Company - Motorized, so jeeps and light vehicles. Fast but weak
• Light Armored Recon Company - Armored cars
• Armored Recon Company - Light tanks

One important type is missing, please add it:

Bicycle Recon Detachment.
It was used by many countries, for example most late-war German infantry divisions got bicycle-mounted Fusilier companies/battalions that did both recon and combat, instead of early war cavalry recon detachments. About as fast as cavalry, but required less supplies (men eat less than horses). Also, bicycle recon was used by airborne units: bicycles could be dropped in parachuted containers, horses could not be parachuted. In game, a Bicycle Recon Detachment could be the cheapest alternative, giving the same recon bonus as cavalry, but requiring less supply, and with no suppression bonus above foot infantry. Bicycles can be carried thru any terrain a man can walk, for example the WWII Finnish bicyclist often attacked thru forest (carrying bikes, not riding), so bicyclist should have same speed on difficult terrain as foot infantry.

 

[Iskulya]

One important type is missing, please add it:

Bicycle Recon Detachment.
It was used by many countries, for example most late-war German infantry divisions got bicycle-mounted Fusilier companies/battalions that did both recon and combat, instead of early war cavalry recon detachments. About as fast as cavalry, but required less supplies (men eat less than horses). Also, bicycle recon was used by airborne units: bicycles could be dropped in parachuted containers, horses could not be parachuted. In game, a Bicycle Recon Detachment could be the cheapest alternative, giving the same recon bonus as cavalry, but requiring less supply, and with no suppression bonus above foot infantry. Bicycles can be carried thru any terrain a man can walk, for example the WWII Finnish bicyclist often attacked thru forest (carrying bikes, not riding), so bicyclist should have same speed on difficult terrain as foot infantry.

I don't think that is an "important" type. That would just bloat the number of support companies to no real purpose. It's kind of a moot point too because cavalry don't use more supplies than bicycles in the game, actually the opposite is true. Cav just require infantry equipment while bicycles require support equipment. It would be a mostly redundant and unncessary addition IMO, for all but the most hardcore enthusiasts of roleplaying.

Cavalry and bicycle units are similar in soft attack, hard attack, piercing, armor, and hardness. They'd be functionally identical and one would come out better in costs, thus rendering one of the two redundant and useless except for RP purposes.

 

[Flight_of_Icarus]

Japan shouldn't be able to go Communist. Not every country should be able to take any ideology. In Kaiserreich Japan's situation is very similar to vanilla, and they can be everything from a democracy to a national populist dictatorship and a military dictatorship. But they can't go Syndicalist, because it's simply stupid. Germany and Austria can't go Syndicalist either, because some things break immersion and gameplay.

The Japanese Communist party was founded in 1922. It's not like Communism simply didn't exist in Japan, they were an underground and illegal political movement, but it was there. In fact, today, they're the largest non-ruling Communist party. If you want to call that an impossible flight of fancy, how about the Silver Legion in the US being presented as anything but the Joke that they were, if you want to talk about "complete reinvention of society"? What about the "King's Party" of the UK, which by itself was a complete and utter myth? How about reviving Austria Hungary out of thin air as Germany, or even as Hungary? How about somehow putting Leon Trotsky in charge of Mexico, and then invading the US and then the USSR to install him as leader? How about putting Adolph Hitler in charge of the USA, somehow, because he somehow survived a German civil war? Even, if you want to argue this is all DLC, how about the base game, where even though in real life, the Great Purge was nothing but Stalin's paranoia, and him flexing his power over the USSR to ensure his absolute leadership. There was no real chance of a trotskyite coup, but in HoI IV there is! In fact, once you put Trotsky in power, you can start INSTANT CIVIL WARS IN ANY COUNTRY.

There's a great deal of unrealistic and sometimes outright ridiculous and silly things in Hearts of Iron IV, but they're there because they're fun. A Japanese Communist route isn't even on the radar as one of the most ridiculous things in this game.

 

[HMAdmiral]

Would it be presumptuous to hope for reconnaissance aircrafts? Would it be possible to implement them in the actual aerial warfare mechanics of HOI4?

 

[Czaristan]

Can we actually get finished icons for all the tank variants so I can tell the difference between tank destroyers and SPA in my production queue?

 

[Orlunu]

Because its an option. Somethign that doesn't effect you. Its more options to do in this game instead of the same ol' facist and conquer China bit. Now you can go Democratic and be part of the allies or play as monarchists and go for Soviet Union.

Right, and because they decided to implement "pick one of the four flavours" instead of actuall decent alt-history, we're completely locked out of anything at all resembling the plans of the extremely interesting, potentially fun to play (far more than muh Stalinist Japan low-effort funposting) and historical Kodo-ha faction. Lazy alt-history is lazy. Handwaving bad options as "oh, well it's an option" doesn't change the fact that the options were made badly. Good options are better than bad options, and excuses that try and distract from that are absurd.

 

[FedericoLachino]

Very nice, hoping for Italy overhaul next diary

 

[FOARP]

The Japanese Communist party was founded in 1922. It's not like Communism simply didn't exist in Japan, they were an underground and illegal political movement, but it was there. In fact, today, they're the largest non-ruling Communist party. If you want to call that an impossible flight of fancy, how about the Silver Legion in the US being presented as anything but the Joke that they were, if you want to talk about "complete reinvention of society"? What about the "King's Party" of the UK, which by itself was a complete and utter myth? How about reviving Austria Hungary out of thin air as Germany, or even as Hungary? How about somehow putting Leon Trotsky in charge of Mexico, and then invading the US and then the USSR to install him as leader? How about putting Adolph Hitler in charge of the USA, somehow, because he somehow survived a German civil war? Even, if you want to argue this is all DLC, how about the base game, where even though in real life, the Great Purge was nothing but Stalin's paranoia, and him flexing his power over the USSR to ensure his absolute leadership. There was no real chance of a trotskyite coup, but in HoI IV there is! In fact, once you put Trotsky in power, you can start INSTANT CIVIL WARS IN ANY COUNTRY.

There's a great deal of unrealistic and sometimes outright ridiculous and silly things in Hearts of Iron IV, but they're there because they're fun. A Japanese Communist route isn't even on the radar as one of the most ridiculous things in this game.

Agree. The JCP taking power is not even nearly an unrealistic thing to happen in-game. It is no more implausible, from the viewpoint of 1936, than a communist Korea.

 

[Louella]

So what's gonna happen to all the mods that already have armored cars in them given you're making them payed DLC feature?

Nothing, almost certainly.

As long as the mods aren't distributing the DLC art and models in the mod files, mod makers are free to include their own armoured car units.

If you pirate our stuff and distribute it as a mod, we have a problem.
If you've come up with a way of modding something that we then later add as a proper feature it should not be a problem.

was part of an answer regarding a thing that I had devised in a mod, that was later added as a DLC feature. (conversion of aircraft into different aircraft)

So, I'm pretty certain that blackice and the other mods that had armoured car units will be unaffected, beyond any difficulties with getting DLC and non-DLC things to work well together.

 

[Arilou]

Right, and because they decided to implement "pick one of the four flavours" instead of actuall decent alt-history, we're completely locked out of anything at all resembling the plans of the extremely interesting, potentially fun to play (far more than muh Stalinist Japan low-effort funposting) and historical Kodo-ha faction. Lazy alt-history is lazy. Handwaving bad options as "oh, well it's an option" doesn't change the fact that the options were made badly. Good options are better than bad options, and excuses that try and distract from that are absurd.

Those... Have virtually nothing to do with each other? Japan's lacklustre communist route has nothing to do with the lacklustre kodo-ha route?

 

[piki]

Would it be presumptuous to hope for reconnaissance aircrafts? Would it be possible to implement them in the actual aerial warfare mechanics of HOI4?

I hope so, certainly this will be espionage and for some reason, I got vibes for air rework. It would make sense, because it needs an overhaul.Land warfare rework I think will come in soviet rework.
Ps:Recon aircraft could mean air designer

 

[Louella]

recon aircraft would be pretty neat to have.

 

[FOARP]

In general I think adding armoured cars to the game is OK though I wonder about changing recon into three different types.

I still don't see the rationale for cavalry being suppression specialists as even a vague glance at the OOBs for the most partisan-heavy theatres during WW2 (Yugoslavia, Greece, China, Soviet Union, Philippines) shows that relatively few divisions were ever deployed in this way. For example, the German Army Group E covering Yugoslavia and Greece had zero cavalry units in July 1943. The only cavalry the Japanese deployed in China for most of the war were relatively few battalions in mixed Brigades.

The Wehrmacht had a grand total of four cavalry divisions in its entire existence (1st, 3rd, 4th Cavalry and the Cossack division), at least two of which were converted into Panzer units (3rd Cavalry became 1st Panzer in 1935, 1st Cavalry became 24th Panzer in 1941) and another one of which was transferred to the Waffen SS in 1944 (the Cossack Cavalry Division). 4th Cavalry appears to have been broken up or converted at some point, not sure when - at the very least it does not appear in any wartime battles.

The Waffen SS formed Florian Geyer in 1942, Maria Theresia in 43, absorbed the 3rd Hungarian in late 1944 (which never had more than one regiment), and also took the Cossacks from the Wehrmacht eventually splitting them into two weak divisions in November 1944. After Florian Geyer and Maria Theresia were destroyed in early 1945 their remnants were rolled into a new division called Lützow.

At the absolute peak in late 1944 there were, what? Four active German cavalry divisions (Florian Geyer, Maria Theresia, Cossack Cavalry, 3rd Hungarian)? Of which three (Florian Geyer, Maria Theresia, 3rd Hungarian) were fighting the Soviets in Budapest at that time.

For comparison, the actual dedicated anti-partisan divisions deployed by the Germans were the Sicherungs-Divisionen of which there were 16 altogether, all of them essentially being light infantry formations with some back-up from armoured cars, artillery, and anti-tank battalions. No horsed cavalry formations of any real size were deployed by either Britain in Malaya (1948-60), or France in Indochina (1945-54) in their fights against guerrillas. Both instead preferred to use primarily infantry formations, particularly special-forces. The United States also never deployed any substantial formations of horsed cavalry in any of their counter-guerrilla operations during this period, nor did the USSR make significant use of horsed cavalry in Hungary in 1956 or in Poland/Ukraine against partisans there.

TL;DR - there is no real basis at all for giving cavalry suppression stats better than those that ordinary infantry units have. There is probably some basis for giving high suppression stats to Para/Marine/Mountain and other elite special forces formations, though they should be too valuable to waste on fighting partisans.

 

[Orlunu]

Those... Have virtually nothing to do with each other? Japan's lacklustre communist route has nothing to do with the lacklustre kodo-ha route?

Not at all. They both have the same root: the devs trying for a "one of each colour on the ideology chart" approach to Japan's alt history. Also, Kitta Ikki's followers in the Kodo-ha were literally the most plausible extreme socialists (although not orthodox communists) to have taking over Japan.

 

[Daelyn75]

Hi everyone and welcome to another dev diary. The team is working hard towards PdxCon that is coming up next week and we are looking forward to pretzels, beer, and of course meeting you guys!

Today we will be talking about Armored Cars! I have often been asked why HOI4 doesn't have them, and today you get to find out why now is the time time

Resistance Suppression
Part of the reason we are finally adding armored cars is that they go hand in hand with resistance suppression. Since its inception, the armored car has been a useful tool against lightly armed and armored opponents. As explained previously, Garrisons will work as a shield against resistance activity. If adequate, the garrison will absorb the vast amount of resistance attacks that would otherwise sabotage industry or resource extraction. Armored vehicles will be especially suited to this role as hardness will give damage reduction to attacks made by the resistance.

In addition to being more resilient and preserving manpower, armored cars will come with a higher suppression stat and a better ratio of suppression to deployed manpower. Armored cars will generally not be as protective as light tanks, but will have a great amount of manpower protection for their cost.

All of these things combine to make armored cars a good option for resistance suppression when manpower is more of a concern than some extra production cost. Horses will still have an edge when it comes to suppression vs production cost, however.

• Hardness to prevent losses
• High suppression value
• Cheap production cost compared to other armored vehicles
• Higher cost still than just horseboys

Main battalion Combat Role
Fighting on the frontlines as the main battle force is not a typical role for an armored car. In HoI4 it will be no different. In most situations, the armored car will be outclassed or simply not appropriate for the terrain. However, in a few cases, armored cars should work fairly well as main battle units.

In WW2 armored cars saw a good deal of combat in the deserts of Northern Africa and the Middle East. Their decreased supply needs, ability to move quickly in desert environments, and excellent capability in fighting poorly equipped enemies made them perform rather well in those theaters.

In HoI4, armored cars will work similarly. They will provide increased protection and breakthrough over say motorized or infantry while coming cheaper than light tanks. They will also be the fastest land unit in the game in the right terrain. These factors should make them dangerous opponents in secondary and tertiary theaters of combat.

View attachment 517501


Combat and Intel
We have split the recon support company into several now so that it can be tailored to the division type you have, and the speed it needs to move at because now the speed on the recon company will be limiting the whole division. Meaning that if you scout your trucks with cavalry they will need to move at cavalry speed.
We have:

• Cavalry Recon Detachment - regular horsey boys you are used to. Cheap, but not that fast.
• Motorized Recon Company - Motorized, so jeeps and light vehicles. Fast but weak
• Light Armored Recon Company - Armored cars
• Armored Recon Company - Light tanks

Armored cars is a good sweet spot of capability, speed and armor while light tanks help keep your hardness and armor up in tougher divisions.

Recon companies give you an edge when picking tactics in combat, and that remains the same. We have on the other hand been rebalancing tactics to make recon more worthwhile. Tactics are now rerolled twice as often and we have lowered the frequency of certain phases like close combat quite a bit (unless fighting in urban terrain).

Recon companies now also do one more thing, they let you generate more intel in combat. More intel you say? What is this? As part of this update we will be redoing how intel works, but we will be going into that in detail in the future. For now all I can say is that there will be several ways to acquire intel (where fighting is one) and that relative intel will be replacing the straight up combat bonus from having crypto techs.

Armored cars looks really cool, so here are some renders for the new models for you to enjoy:
View attachment 517500

Ingame tech wise armored cars depend on motorized, so to use the recon companies you need both that and to have unlocked the recon support companies.

View attachment 517498

Armored cars will be coming with the DLC while basic intel changes and the other recon companies are available for all with the ‘Husky’ update. Next week is PdxCon and we are also moving offices, so I’ve set my alarm clock on “Maximum chaos!” but I think we should be able to give you a bit of an update diary anyways Seeya then!

So, did anyone notice that the Italian armored car had it's gun facing backwards? I thought that was supposed to be on the French armored car!

 

[Jack Daniel's]

Why can't your tank models look this good?

 

[Ossiv]

At the absolute peak in late 1944 there were, what? Four active German cavalry divisions (Florian Geyer, Maria Theresia, Cossack Cavalry, 3rd Hungarian)? Of which three (Florian Geyer, Maria Theresia, 3rd Hungarian) were fighting the Soviets in Budapest at that time.

For comparison, the actual dedicated anti-partisan divisions deployed by the Germans were the Sicherungs-Divisionen of which there were 16 altogether, all of them essentially being light infantry formations with some back-up from armoured cars, artillery, and anti-tank battalions. No horsed cavalry formations of any real size were deployed by either Britain in Malaya (1948-60), or France in Indochina (1945-54) in their fights against guerrillas. Both instead preferred to use primarily infantry formations, particularly special-forces. The United States also never deployed any substantial formations of horsed cavalry in any of their counter-guerrilla operations during this period, nor did the USSR make significant use of horsed cavalry in Hungary in 1956 or in Poland/Ukraine against partisans there.

TL;DR - there is no real basis at all for giving cavalry suppression stats better than those that ordinary infantry units have. There is probably some basis for giving high suppression stats to Para/Marine/Mountain and other elite special forces formations, though they should be too valuable to waste on fighting partisans.

I agree with you that cavalry was and is not commonly used in security duties and there is no real reason to give it better supression stats than for (infantry) security divisions. German security divisions also had an attached (motorized) police battalion, the cavalry divisions did not.

To your account of German cavalry divisions I like to add that in 1944 (Wehrmacht) 3rd and 4th Cavalry Brigades were formed and in 1945 they were renamed 3rd and 4th Cavalry Divisions (still in brigade strength). The Cossack Cavalry Division was split into two divisions so that in 1945 there were 1st and 2nd Cossack Cavalry Divisions. The Germans used Cossack Cavalry for security and antipartisan duties in Yugoslavia, although they preferred to use mountain and light infantry due to the mountainous terrain there.

About Soviet cavalry:
The Soviet Union largely expanded it's cavalry after heavy losses of motorized vehicles in 1941, and cavalry was used by the Red Army till the end of WWII, often together with armor. Just a few Soviet cavalry charges happened, mostly horses were just used as transports. At the end of WWII the SU had 26 cavalry division.

 

[Fer_Fer]

So, did anyone notice that the Italian armored car had it's gun facing backwards? I thought that was supposed to be on the French armored car!

The model is backwards, not just the gun.

So, did anyone notice that the Italian armored car had it's gun facing backwards? I thought that was supposed to be on the French armored car!

The entire car is facing backwards.

Its an AB 43, by the looks of it. ( the picture is an AB 41, but chassis wise its the same deal)

While it has a driver in the back to drive in reverse, it really ought to be reversed.