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Modding Development Diary #1: Guest entry - Paradox Mods in Cities: Skylines II

Introduction​

Right! So the time has come to lift the lid off of the modding interface and its backing service.

As many of you know, Paradox has been running our own mods backend for years, inventively named Paradox Mods. As a matter of fact, the first game that we hosted mods for was the Xbox version of Cities: Skylines I.

In order to give players on all platforms the same possibilities, PC and console alike, the Cities: Skylines II team has chosen to use Paradox Mods to officially host mods for the game. Now, the discerning reader might be wondering what that means for players and how they interact with mods. Read on!

The player experience​

As we have seen in other titles, primarily Surviving Mars, offering access to mods from inside the game itself means that many more players interact with them and more people discover the fun that comes with modding a game.

In Cities: Skylines II, the interface to Paradox Mods will be found in the game’s main menu. Have a look:
main_menu_updated_240313.png

The Paradox Mods interface will allow you to discover, search and just plain browse through mods from inside the game. Additionally, our staff will highlight especially interesting, popular or unique mods for your consideration.

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In common with other games that use Paradox Mods, the interface will allow you to create and manage playsets. If you have played other Paradox titles, the concept might be familiar, but if it’s new to you, playsets are basically “playlists for mods that form easily togglable experiences.” If you place a mod that has a dependency in a playset, you’ll be automatically asked if you want to add all dependencies (yes, we do resolve the entire tree of dependencies).

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Of course, the in-game interface is not the only way to manage your mods: Playsets can be constructed from the Paradox Mods website as well. There, mods can be added, removed and toggled - and all of this will then be synced to your game automatically. Likewise, playsets are stored in our backend and will be replicated to all devices you happen to play the game on. And consequently: No, your carefully constructed playsets will not disappear if your computer lets out the magic smoke inside.

Mods discussions are also available directly from in-game - but the same discussions are also present on our forums, if you would rather post from a web interface. You can also find links to other (SoMe) platforms related to the mod, if pointed out by the creator.

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Naturally, there are other ways to get mods than from Paradox Mods; creating them yourself for instance. Of course, the game will allow you to add local mods of any source to your playsets - Be aware that these will not be cloud-synced and will indeed be lost on catastrophic system failure.

The creator experience​

Now, in order to have actual mods to play with there needs to be ways of submitting mods to the game.
You can find instructions on how to upload your map and code mods here.
And how to create them to begin with, which we’ll leave to our friends at Colossal Order to share more information about, starting tomorrow!

We can mention that, as a mod creator you can add metadata to your mod such as description, screenshots, dependencies, release notes, supported game version etc. This information can be changed at any time through the Paradox Mods website as well. If you so wish, you can also add a discussion section to your mod.

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This wraps up our little teaser from the Paradox Mods team, and we're buzzing with excitement to get this out to you as soon as we’re allowed. We're all ears for your feedback because, let's face it, we're on a mission to create something of value across all platforms, blemishes and all.

Tomorrow Colossal Order is back, they will go into detail about the in-game editor where you create the actual mods that will in turn populate the Paradox Mods library!

Paradox Mods releases on the 25th of March, together with the Beach Properties Asset Pack!
 
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For the record, I believe there will be an ability to add a donate button to a mod.

Alright, so - I really have to know because this sensitive nerve from various communities has always struck me a bit odd.
How would offering a creator be able to monetize their creations be strategically any different than say, Patreon?
Maybe I'm biased because I'm in software, but what's the big deal with offering a platform for creators to make a few bucks for their mods?

1: Theft. It wasn't uncommon for people to just steal other peoples mods and try to sell them for profit. Paradox (and steam when it tried) won't be able to mod the thousands of mods that get uploaded and check if they were stolen or not.

2: Unfair cuts. Usually the platform holder tries to take an (imo) large to massive cut of the money being spent on a paid mod, with the person who actually made it getting the smallest portion. However much is "fair" is of course up to the individual, but imo the mod creator should be getting the biggest slice, not the smallest.

3: Dependencies. With paid mods, are they allowed to use someome elses work in addition to their own if both are trying to get paid for it? Would the second mod creator have to pay the dependency maker for each usage or just once? There's alot of tricky navigation that has to happen once money gets involved.

4: Expectations. Whilst mod makers are quite used to "new patch when's update?!", I can only imagine the intensity of that would increase if there was now a money aspect to it.
 
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Why rush to release mods on this game which is still not stable and which is still a nest of bugs ?
Do they hope that the modding community will be their lifelines ?
There's a big patch coming at the same time.
 
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Why rush to release mods on this game which is still not stable and which is still a nest of bugs ?
Do they hope that the modding community will be their lifelines ?
Because these DLCs have already been paid last year by a lot of people. which expose them to some legal action if they don't deliver.
 
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Why rush to release mods on this game which is still not stable and which is still a nest of bugs ?
Do they hope that the modding community will be their lifelines ?

It shouldn't be an either/or thing. They have charged people for content like the beachfront assets. They sold the game with the idea that mod support was literally days away from launch. They have to deliver on that. 4 months after launch is already way too late. That doesn't mean you stop fixing the broken mess of a game. Small team excuses don't fly. Your last game was a big success, you sold plenty of DLC for it and made a ton of money off it. Then, you treated CS2 like a big budget release, selling $80+ versions of it. You marketed it with all sorts of promises and set all sorts of expectations. You don't get to do all that, then hide behind, "We are a small team, we can only do one thing at a time." Why are you a small team after CS1 and if you were planning to market and sell CS2 like a big budget title? The customer isn't supposed to care about your team size. We want what we were sold.

I do get the feeling that they are really hoping mod support will be some sort of lifeline. Unless they are planning a miracle with the patch as well, I don't know if they are capable of producing what they sold. 3 years of internal delays, 4 months of the game being out and this is what we have. I am not going to sit here expecting that the next patch is suddenly going to change everything. They are hoping the mod community will do it for them.
 
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There are two issues: donation/purchase and what share the game developer/mode platform takes.
Theft... Unfair cuts... Dependancies... Expectations...
Sure. You both bring up a lot of good points.
First, I don't think "for profit" mods are coming any time soon, and I'll tell you why at the end, but I want to go through it point by point as if I were approaching this problem... Wow, this is going to be a lot!

1: Theft. It wasn't uncommon for people to just steal other peoples mods and try to sell them for profit. Paradox (and steam when it tried) won't be able to mod the thousands of mods that get uploaded and check if they were stolen or not.
Yeah, definitely a problem. In short, theft -- happens. It's how you handle it that matters.

On platform theft? I think it's far easier to moderate a platform like Paradox mods than Steam just due to sheer volume. I think just doing a few sanity checks on the first payout and unusual payouts would curb a lot of that along with good reporting tools. The use of an intermediary currency is pretty useful here too for things like that. You could also have a few small barriers to entry, such as reaching 300 downloads on asset, just as an example.

Off platform theft? You didn't bring it up, but thought I'd touch on it.
The reason a platform like Steam is so successful for developers isn't because it's the ultimate anti-theft tool. When Gabe was originally making the platform, he said as much. His goal was to offer the ultimate in convenience. On the other hand, DRM has almost never worked on it's own and usually makes things less convenient, in which case -- even people paying for a product might try circumventing it.

So, in short, I'd simply serialize all mods on the Paradox Mod platform and if you're caught with a "for profit" one that's not associated with your account -- I'd invalidate the mod and restrict your access to the platform until it was removed, with a handy dialog box.

Could you get around that? Absolutely... but it'd likely be really inconvenient. Bear in mind, with the official store, you'd be availed to certain protections as well.
Also, this would only be really relevant on PC's -- so the issue doesn't even represent the entire market share, which is what a publisher is more interested in anyway.

2: Unfair cuts. Usually the platform holder tries to take an (imo) large to massive cut of the money being spent on a paid mod, with the person who actually made it getting the smallest portion. However much is "fair" is of course up to the individual, but imo the mod creator should be getting the biggest slice, not the smallest.
I agree. The sort of system I'd recommend is a 2-10% cut for the publisher (or 90-98% for the creator).
Why a sliding scale at all? Some thought has to be put into risk management for a publisher, so there should be both an incentive for a creator and enough of a cut to manage that risk. Once you're an established creator, you're far less risky to deal with.

3: Dependencies. With paid mods, are they allowed to use someome elses work in addition to their own if both are trying to get paid for it? Would the second mod creator have to pay the dependency maker for each usage or just once? There's alot of tricky navigation that has to happen once money gets involved.
Good question actually. The way I think would be the most convenient would to be think of dependencies in this particular case more more like a shopping cart. It would simply be up to the customer on whether that bundle would be worth it or not.

4: Expectations. Whilst mod makers are quite used to "new patch when's update?!", I can only imagine the intensity of that would increase if there was now a money aspect to it.

There are definitely a few conflicts in this case, such as @co_avanya stating that mod makers will always have the opportunity to remove their mods. This just wouldn't be good with a money system involved. The other issue is that the game would need to provide a reliable backward compatibility for assets to ensure that patches don't break assets, provide an easy way to stay on a previous version of the game if they do, and provide documentation to mod maintainers as well.

This is partially why I don't think "for profit" mods are coming any time in the near future, but I certainly like the idea of a donate button :)
... but again, I'm not against the idea of them because I think it would really encourage creators, and that's how I'd approach it.
 
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One thing that caught my eye in the screenshots definitely seems to work differently from Steam in a way that will affect usability.

In Paradox Mods each entry will have a listing of "suggested game version"; ie, the minimal revision of the game under which the mod will work. That's not what existed under Steam. Since most players keep their game up to date, few really care about the oldest version of the game under which a mod will run, but we do care about the newest version.

People playing CS1 may recall that many code mods would break every time a new DLC (and its associated base game update) would be released. There would be a mad scramble; some modders had pre-warning of the base game changes, many didn't. Mods that were no longer maintained might be rendered unusable; for some of those current modders would take the old code, make it work with the new base game rev, and often add "revisited" to the mod's name to distinguish from the original. And some non-updated mods could simply break the updated game; troubleshooting that could be fun.

No doubt many of you have referred to this spreadsheet every time a new DLC would release. It certainly saved me more than once. Along with listing mods that were broken or replaced with each game update, it also listed mods that were incompatible (ie, redundant) with other mods. Very useful.

Then there were standardized "logos" that many important mods would display, indicating that they had been tested under the latest base game. The most recent example of this is:
Screenshot 2024-03-20 111227.png


I never knew whether that system was developed by Steam or by the mods themselves. As a casual user I hadn't needed to keep track of the base game version number but I do know the most recent DLC, so I could tell immediately that any mod showing this "certification" would work with the most current version of the game. Any mod showing the logo of an older mod or no logo ... well I know that might be riskier; it might work with the current game but hadn't been verified. Then finally there was a mod to check on other mods, Skyve, but by the time that was in popular use CS1 was near end of life (or at least it wouldn't be getting any updates).

I am hoping there will be a facility for handling this issue better in Paradox Mods; it was not apparent in the screenshot I saw.
 
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I'm sure PDXMods won't handle this better but Skyve for CS II is ready to be published.
I was thinking specifically that just changing "suggested game version" to "most recent game version supported" would be a step above what was offered by Steam.
It wouldn't address everything that Skyve did, but it would tell players at a glace whether a mod they otherwise liked was safe to run on a current rev of the base game. Done that way it could even be criteria for sorting or filtering.
 
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Why rush to release mods on this game which is still not stable and which is still a nest of bugs ?
Do they hope that the modding community will be their lifelines ?
Mods ARE their lifeline already. You cannot play CS2 any further without installing mods even today. The land value bug alone will block you from being able to build what you want to build and where you want to build, and only with mods you can continue playing CS2 at the moment (at least when you are slowly and carefully developing an area, then the land value bug will hit you). And then there are all those game breaking bugs for public transport, for the energy system, for cargo and so on. And CO hasn't been able to fix such critical and game-breaking bugs within nearly half a year after release meanwhile. They even decided to thin out the patch cadence drastically. I think that says it all.

So, yes, we have to rely on the modder's skills and enthusiasm to make CS2 a playable game. A game that CO declared to be "a game for the next decade" but already lost control on the first day of the release. Or, maybe CO meant that it takes the modders a decade to make a playable game out of it, not sure.

Sorry for the rant. I've been a city builder enthusast for three decades meanwhile, it's the kind of games I play most, by far. I loved CS1 and I really want to enjoy CS2. If even a person like me hasn't found the motivation to continue playing CS2 for the past around 4 weeks, then I think that shows that something is going horribly wrong here.
 
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I never knew whether that system was developed by Steam or by the mods themselves.
By the modders. Neither Steam, PDX or CO will ever check the mods code to know which mods needs to be updated. Some modders don't even publish their code, But:

* Being optional, a lot of modders will never display this logo. Along the years, a lot of them will abandon their mods, anyway.

* The lack of indication mod x or y works with the latest patch doesn't mean it won't work, as all mods don't have to be patched with each base game patch.

So the only way to have reliable info on all mods after a patch depends on the few people reporting bugs. Skyve is then needed to collect all these informations in one place.
 
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Mods ARE their lifeline already. You cannot play CS2 any further without installing mods even today. The land value bug alone will block you from being able to build what you want to build and where you want to build, and only with mods you can continue playing CS2 at the moment (at least when you are slowly and carefully developing an area, then the land value bug will hit you). And then there are all those game breaking bugs for public transport, for the energy system, for cargo and so on. And CO hasn't been able to fix such critical and game-breaking bugs within nearly half a year after release meanwhile. They even decided to thin out the patch cadence drastically. I think that says it all.

So, yes, we have to rely on the modder's skills and enthusiasm to make CS2 a playable game. A game that CO declared to be "a game for the next decade" but already lost control on the first day of the release. Or, maybe CO meant that it takes the modders a decade to make a playable game out of it, not sure.

Sorry for the rant. I've been a city builder enthusast for three decades meanwhile, it's the kind of games I play most, by far. I loved CS1 and I really want to enjoy CS2. If even a person like me hasn't found the motivation to continue playing CS2 for the past around 4 weeks, then I think that shows that something is going horribly wrong here.
Yes BUT, for me Mods don't have to be necessary to play the basics CS2 game, for me CO should act now and release a fix patch to correct all these bugs asap.
If they plan that it will be the modders community who is going to correct the long bugs list and do the CO dev jobs themself it can be a real nightmare for the customers.

And this famous awaited Mods new module can also introduce new bugs and so on.

When mods will be up each time CO will release a new patch, all these mods will be deprecated and we have to wait for a new release of these necessary mods to get a stable game, it's not serious, this is why i'm asking for a fix, before adding any new capabilities to this game.

I have this game, i have already played more than one thousand hours on CS2 and i don't play anymore since few months due to overnumbered bugs
 
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1: Theft. It wasn't uncommon for people to just steal other peoples mods and try to sell them for profit. Paradox (and steam when it tried) won't be able to mod the thousands of mods that get uploaded and check if they were stolen or not.

2: Unfair cuts. Usually the platform holder tries to take an (imo) large to massive cut of the money being spent on a paid mod, with the person who actually made it getting the smallest portion. However much is "fair" is of course up to the individual, but imo the mod creator should be getting the biggest slice, not the smallest.

3: Dependencies. With paid mods, are they allowed to use someome elses work in addition to their own if both are trying to get paid for it? Would the second mod creator have to pay the dependency maker for each usage or just once? There's alot of tricky navigation that has to happen once money gets involved.

4: Expectations. Whilst mod makers are quite used to "new patch when's update?!", I can only imagine the intensity of that would increase if there was now a money aspect to it.
paid mods/assets should just stick to commissioned projects. i agree that its a giant shitshow when you have paid and unpaid mods and then other modders use paid mods as dependencies. for that reason alone they should not be allowed.
 
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Why rush to release mods on this game which is still not stable and which is still a nest of bugs ?
Do they hope that the modding community will be their lifelines ?
just because you dont want mods, doesnt mean the rest of us dont. mods have always been use at your own risk. if you dont think the risk is worth it, then dont get them. i have been playing the game with mods since october with little to no problems, with the occasional hiccup on patch day which was usually resolved within hours to a day or so.
 
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