Stellaris Dev Diary #143 - Changes to megastructures

[spyker92]

There's also the aspect that "We're still working on the AI" isn't a very compelling Dev Diary.

They did state at one point they were touching base with glavius, whos made a far far better AI then paradox has.

 

[Peko?]

Well I mean, would it make you feel better if they dumped a novel of technical jargon on us?

Actually, I'd probably enjoy a DevDiary that goes into the nitty gritty of the hurdles of making a good AI for Stellaris. But I suspect that I'm in the minority here. My point is that it'd be difficult to write a DD on the subject that isn't just a verbose version of "We're still working on it".

 

[ubuntufreakdragon]

What about a more conservative approach:
There are currently 3 perk about mega structures:
void borne, master builders and galactic wonders
all other more complex perk systems consist of 2 perks.
so what about:
void borne allows to build habitats plus all wonders up to stage 2 and adds the mega engineering research option (wonders are all non habitable megastructures)
it's requrements should stay similar
galactic wonders allows ringworlds and increases the max stage of the wonders to 3 adds two districts to habitats and 50% build speed for these megastructures
it should only require void borne
for parallel building of mega structures a system like for each 2500 pops you can build an additional on in parallel sounds more useful to me.

Ringworlds should get some unique districts e.g. more powerful food districts adding lets say 4 instead of two jobs, the Ecumenopolis city districts and a more powerful energy district (plus may be the habitats research districts).

The cause why many other perk are such underwhelming is that they only add some flat bonus, and a flat bonus always loses against a totally new system/option/tactic.
Some of these boni are even pretty obsolete because you ran replace the by repeatable techs.
why should one waste a perk on 30 additional empire size limit, just push science and research the repeatable.

Ecumenopolis are unbalanced as they provide extremely many industry jobs,don't require strategic resources and the are too efficient towards empire size.

I personally can't understand why to use habitats for research they only add 3 scientists jobs and you waste 10 housing for it, I place my Industry there (due to not owning megacorp) I use them as mini Ecumenopolis, because they can at least build all relevant buildings and use the now free spots on planets for research.

 

[Kayden_II]

I've thought a bit about this and I think, that it's rather "unnecessary" to link megastructures to a-perks as well as to tradition-trees ...
Even this last megastructure-a-perk (presented in this dd) should be erased, so long story short: Megastructures have their "best" spot as technologies.

 

[DemonHunter1]

Now that you're reworking Megastructures I've got to ask that you add the ability to remove/disassemble Megastructures. I mean why wouldn't any empire try to destroy thier own Megastructures to prevent them from falling into enemy hands, especially if they can get at least a part of the resources that went into construction back?

On the note of conflict and war, the Megastructures should really be destructable/targetable. An enemy empire should be able to see reason in denying the enemy the massive boni a complete megastructure provides and it would force thier enemys to either waste resources to either rebuild the structure or to scrap the megastructure.
Making Megastructures a part of the conflict would also make them more involved as opposed to they exist in thier own void as they are now.

Other than that, I find these changes interesting. Looking forward to how this will play out.

 

[UltimateTobi]

Actually, I'd probably enjoy a DevDiary that goes into the nitty gritty of the hurdles of making a good AI for Stellaris. But I suspect that I'm in the minority here. My point is that it'd be difficult to write a DD on the subject that isn't just a verbose version of "We're still working on it".

I definitely would enjoy a DD dedicated to AI, even if it gets technical (which I wouldn't understand any of). But that'd show they mean business when they say they work on the AI. And they'd get feedback from people that are adept at AI programming; deeper feedback than they'd normally get regarding that topic. At least on the forums. Of course I don't know where they source other feedback from.

And I am also a friend of the idea that each Megastructure should be within its "corresponding" Perk (Science Nexus in Transcended Learning, etc pp).

 

[aono]

Quite a compromise between two prevalient ideas:
make Galactic Wonders a "support" perk. So, every Megastructure tech require some kind of outer requirenment AND Galactic Wonders to be rolled.
Like, Science Nexus require Galactic Wonders + Technological Ascendancy; Strategic Center = Galactic Wonders + Eternal Vigilance/Interstellar Dominion/Galactic Force Projection, and so on; the more accessible megastructures can be unlocked by some tech + Galactic Wonders.
This way you still need to dedicate a perk for building great things in space, and said perk wouldn't be so auto-gain and auto-unlock as it is now.

 

[DemonHunter1]

Hmm.. now that i've read the comment section I have an Idea that would hopefully be acceptable to the locking MS behind traditions/AP's.

How about having 1st level of construction of megastructures (the basically VERY large space stations) be a rare tech at techlevel 3 or posssibly even 2 be researchable but have a very low chance of showing up. The chanches of the specific MS tech showing up could be increased by finishing certain traditions/taking specific AP's (I'll elaborate on that later in this post).

The first stage MS research would have about the tech cost of Mega Engineering (becaus your empire is trying to brute force figure out how to best do it) but it would allow empires to get a specific Megastructure REALLY early. The following construction stage researches would then be normal tech seeing that you have already figured out how you want to build the specific structure.

Mega Engineering would see the change that it would give 50% research on all non Stellar class/Galactic Wonders MS at first construction stage and make them a permanent research choice in addition to the already existing boni the tech gives.
Galactic Wonders would still unlock the research options for the Dyson Sphere, Matter Decompressor and Ringworld but as opposed to the non 'Stellar class' Megastructures these techs would unlock all stages of the megastructures (your empire already has very good ideas how they want to build them).

Tradition finisher effects could increase the tech weights for associated MS for example:
Supremacy will increase the chances for the Strategic Coordination Center
Discovery could increase either Science Nexus or Sentry array or both
Unity could increase the weights for the Interstellar Assembly or Mega Art Installation
Expansion increases chances for the Sentry array to show up
Prosperity could increase the chances of eiter the Mega Engineering tech to show up or the Gateway tech.
You get the picture.

AP's like Eternal Vigilance and Galactic Force Projection could increase the chances of the Strategic Coordination Center to show up etc. Hell you could even have the empires ethics play around with the tech weights.

I think this is the best of both worlds on the arguments and would also (in my opinion) play well into roleplay and diversify the empires for a while.

As to the points made about Habitats, Dyson Sphere, Matter Decompressor and Ringworld I agree with them.
No Planet should ever be able to get even close in resource output to the Dyson Sphere and Matter Decompressor considering the sheer size (or implied size in case of the Matter Decompressor) of these constructs.

The Ringworld is supposed to be truly gigantic that should be reflected by special districts and special buildings that can be build on it so building a ringworld and populating it isn't as hard on the administrative capacity. I'd even go as far as to give it boni on resource output seeing as it is an enormous artificial world, it should certainly be superior to Ecumenopoli.
The increased power of the constructs should also come with increased resource costs, so they truly feel like 'Galactic Wonders'.

 

[aono]

I'd even go as far as to give it boni on resource output seeing as it is an enormous artificial world, it should certainly be superior to Ecumenopoli.

I thought about it, but, IMHO, things in-game should allow to represent staples and tropes. The very first Ringworld in sci-fi (at least by my knowing) was everything but not Ecumenopolis.
Still, you should be able to make one from Ringworld.

 

[CrazyZombie]

What about a more conservative approach:
There are currently 3 perk about mega structures:
void borne, master builders and galactic wonders
all other more complex perk systems consist of 2 perks.
so what about:
void borne allows to build habitats plus all wonders up to stage 2 and adds the mega engineering research option (wonders are all non habitable megastructures)
it's requrements should stay similar
galactic wonders allows ringworlds and increases the max stage of the wonders to 3 adds two districts to habitats and 50% build speed for these megastructures
it should only require void borne
for parallel building of mega structures a system like for each 2500 pops you can build an additional on in parallel sounds more useful to me.

Ringworlds should get some unique districts e.g. more powerful food districts adding lets say 4 instead of two jobs, the Ecumenopolis city districts and a more powerful energy district (plus may be the habitats research districts).

The cause why many other perk are such underwhelming is that they only add some flat bonus, and a flat bonus always loses against a totally new system/option/tactic.
Some of these boni are even pretty obsolete because you ran replace the by repeatable techs.
why should one waste a perk on 30 additional empire size limit, just push science and research the repeatable.

Ecumenopolis are unbalanced as they provide extremely many industry jobs,don't require strategic resources and the are too efficient towards empire size.

I personally can't understand why to use habitats for research they only add 3 scientists jobs and you waste 10 housing for it, I place my Industry there (due to not owning megacorp) I use them as mini Ecumenopolis, because they can at least build all relevant buildings and use the now free spots on planets for research.

Try "Utopian dream" mod. It really makes "generic civilian bonuses" way better.

 

[DemonHunter1]

I thought about it, but, IMHO, things in-game should allow to represent staples and tropes. The very first Ringworld in sci-fi (at least by my knowing) was everything but not Ecumenopolis.
Still, you should be able to make one from Ringworld.

I was more speaking of the ringworld having resource boni LIKE an Ecumenopolis not for it to be a super large ecumenopolis if that is what you meant. The districts are supposed to be 'bigger' aka more housing and working places per district, possibly even having special districts not unlike Ecomenopoli.

 

[V-Metamorph]

Or you could spread out the megastructure unlocks behind appropriate ascension perks, thus buffing those in the process.

Someone should try that.

edit - Because snark isn't a useful contribution:
10,713 other Stellaris players seem to agree with this suggestion: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1588513621

This has to be one of the best, if not best, change that can be brought upon Galactic wonders.
@grekulf take notes venerable molluscoid!

 

[DanielPrates]

I don't want to sound like a d!ck, and sorry if this post of mine is taken as an insult to the currently development team - I assure that is not the intention - but the previous dev diaries were a bit disappointing. The ideas floated in the 'sectors' dev diary were very vague, and the mere shuffling of already extant things in a single ascension perk is hardly worthy of a dev diary, being more like the kind of thing one would expect to be addressed as a minor/medium thing in a patch.

Maybe I am too pampered by the last dev team that saw us through 'megacorp', but I had the feeling then that the new dev team was really thinking through the game in its current state and seeing a 'promised land' where it could be taken. Now, it feels more like the team is picking small things here and there and fiddling with them.

I don't presume to know or have read every piece and bit of post in this forum, but by the frequency that some things come up, I dare say that the community has already sent a clear message on a few MAJOR things that need addressing. A tentative list would be more or less like this:

1 - Better, effective and meaningful diplomacy;
2 - Internal issues and struggles; a better political system;
3 - Sectors, but more than just a tool do decrease micromanagement: a proper game utility for sectors., be it political, economic etc.

Every time I see a new dev diary, I imagine "oh boy! Now they are going to propose a plan on how a future DLC or major patch will fix the currently weird diplomacy", or, "now's the time internal institutions will be discussed"... insofar the most concrete idea floated by the team was taking individual megastructures from a perk and giving them all their own tech projects. That is good but is it the best idea someone could think of during a couple of weeks?

Maybe what the game needs right now is for the team to think the game one or two years (RL years) into the future, and start debating now what will be done by them. I would gladly sit six months without any dev diary if I felt the team is preoccupying itself with this kind of major issues, instead of DDs saying, for instance, "oh we decided to tweak a little the bonus of the purification plants" or other minor stuff like that.

Sorry if I am being nasty, that's not my intention. Cheers everyone.

 

[Cymsdale]

They did state at one point they were touching base with glavius, whos made a far far better AI then paradox has.

Where did they say that?

 

[Cymsdale]

Maybe what the game needs right now is for the team to think the game one or two years (RL years) into the future, and start debating now what will be done by them. I would gladly sit six months without any dev diary if I felt the team is preoccupying itself with this kind of major issues, instead of DDs saying, for instance, "oh we decided to tweak a little the bonus of the purification plants" or other minor stuff like that.

This dev diary is directly addressing something that players have been actively campaigning for, that's a good thing. It doesn't mean that the developer team isn't doing long term planning or working on other stuff in the mean time.

 

[CrazyZombie]

This dev diary is directly addressing something that players have been actively campaigning for, that's a good thing. It doesn't mean that the developer team isn't doing long term planning or working on other stuff in the mean time.

Probably, yes.

Still, I hope that next DLC will be something more than a new civil model for oligarchic state with couple of unique mechanics, and space casino. I mean, I bought it to support further development, yes, but actually, all I was interested in 2.2.* went in a free update. It is, like, well... Utopia was a big breakthrough, and Megacorp - kinda "meh" in comparison.

 

[Anemetius]

A big nothing.

 

[Kryndude]

Can also we do something about AI's habitat spamming while reworking habitat in general?

 

[CrazyZombie]

Can also we do something about AI's habitat spamming while reworking habitat in general?

You can. Bring a planet cracker - surprisingly, it works.

 

[sithalo]

Where did they say that?

There is this from the 2.2.6 patch notes
"Fixed the end of year lag when big empires with lots of pops being assimilated convert them into proper citizen (shoutout to Glavius!)"
And this from 2.2.4 patch notes
"Fixed some AI weights for population control (thanks for the heads-up Glavius, you're rad)"