Stellaris Dev Diary #143 - Changes to megastructures

[Millbot]

There is a fundamental failure with the idea of "too many empires feel so samey. Let's take megastructures and shoehorn them on to crap perks. That'll totally make every empire have to make different choices." Here is the thing, it won't. Part of the issue is power gaming, people are going to figure out what perks are best and which ones are crap. Then you'll see the same issue. Where everyone is complaining about every empire feeling stale because the power gamers all make the same choices, which in turn forces anyone that wants to compete against them into making those choices. Plus, I'm skeptical that shoehorning on megastructures to every garbage tier perk will change the status quo. The ones that are going baseline, aren't awesome enough to make people forgo the current roster of useful perks, for the garbage tier. Also outside of some starter background civics, I really don't see how any these really qualify as "these are advancements where we'll have to make hard choices and forgo certain advancements!" All five of those are essentially giant starbases with a focused goal (culture, science, military power, intelligence & diplomacy). If your intergalactic society doesn't build one of these, it either feels it's not a good use of resources or has a deeply philosophical objection, that would have been made at the start screen (I could totally see inner perfectionist not building sentry arrays & intergalactic assemblies because they don't want to have anything to do with xenos).

Also this seems to be an issue where designs goals are being missed here. By making several of these baseline, the devs do not have to really go revisit them. Mega Art Installation, Science Nexus, Strategic Coordination Center & Sentry Array would need zero adjustment. Intergalactic Assembly is the only one of the five where it needs a revisit because in some cases it makes no sense for an empire to even have the option to build it, while in other cases parts of it are useless. Even then, the whole idea of diplomacy shouldn't have aspects of it squirreled away behind a perk, likely a perk that will never get used.

Finally, this also creates another samey problem. That being in the form of many perks having a megastructure attached to them, that takes decades to bring online. Not every perk should have a megastructure and thus part of it locked behind having to wait decades to get the full benefit. Some perks should be one and done. Some perks shouldn't be something that unlocks a structure. If you want to combat the idea of empires being to similar look into background civics, other ideas that set things up at the start in a permanent manner or perk setups like the three ascension paths (that said, the perk system either needs some pruning or a rework because currently, there are just too many perks & some of those are never going to be competitive, so either fold them into stuff that makes sense or split them into pools that fill different types of slots).

Though worth keeping in mind that part of the issue is empires feeling the same because of power gaming. There is a certain point where, even if you can get some more variety in the form of background civics and things like ascension paths, you're going to see a certain level of cookie cutter builds. Either accept that they may beat you because they always are going for the most optimal build or just avoid setups where you have to compete with them (thus being able to focus on fun, that might be considered suboptimal).

 

[spyker92]

I hope the ascension perks will just unlock the techs.

I feel having the ascension perks unlock certain megastructures is way better then what it is now.

Sentry Array -> Egnimatic Engineering
Science Nexus -> Technology
Art -> One Way
Coordination Center -> Eternal Vigilence

I'm fine with dyson sphere, matter decompressor and ring world sticking to being locked behind galactic wonders though, as theyre "late game" wonders.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Part of the issue is power gaming, people are going to figure out what perks are best and which ones are crap.

Powergamers are going to powergame regardless, like you said- so it doesn't really matter. I want to see more varied galaxies and varied gameplay between different empires, and spreading megastructures out between other perks would accomplish that.

Who cares if the Inwards Perfection Metagame involves always picking the perk that gives you whatever megastructure- there'll already be a Inwards Perfection Metagame or whatever that involves "mandatory" perk choices anyhow. Shuffling the mandatory perks is fine.

 

[zukodark]

One thing I could see considered is to allow you to build more megastructures, but each new above the cap (base 1) costs exponentially more potencies of 2.

Aka first costs 1x, second costs 2x, third costs 4x, fourth costs 8x. Or a less drastic of an increase, like 1x, 1,5x, 3x, 6x, etc.

 

[Vladisi]

Meaningful choices make for deeper, more engaging gameplay.

Nothing stops you from using mods if you want to make an ultra-mega-super empire that can do everything equally well- that's what stuff like "take all three Ascension Paths at once" mods are for.

There is nothing meaningful about locking megastructures behind other ascension perks. All it would do is limit you to the megastructures that just happened to be in the perk you chose for some other reason. On the other hand locking megastructures behind technologies is actually meaningful, as researching them takes time, as well as building them.

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

Great change!

How about increasing the chance of Mega-Engineering tech showing up? If it doesn't actually allow you to build MS, it should be less rare.

 

[Millbot]

Powergamers are going to powergame regardless, like you said- so it doesn't really matter. I want to see more varied galaxies and varied gameplay between different empires, and spreading megastructures out between other perks would accomplish that.

Who cares if the Inwards Perfection Metagame involves always picking the perk that gives you whatever megastructure- there'll already be a Inwards Perfection Metagame or whatever that involves "mandatory" perk choices anyhow. Shuffling the mandatory perks is fine.

You're missing the point, a ton of the samey feeling empires is a result of power gamers and people aping them. Arbitrarily tacking on the strategic coordination center to eternal vigilance isn't going to make those types take the perk, nor is it going to make people that aren't power gaming take the perk. Your insistence that this will add meaningful choice doesn't do squat for making choices interesting.

The megastructures being baselines just aren't that interesting and the devs have made it pretty clear they aren't interesting in buffing them up to make them a super compelling choice. Otherwise they wouldn't be going baseline, they'd just be split into a new perk and well frankly, the current perk system really can't support more perks (we have to many perks that really can't compete with the strong perks and until they are either buffed up to do so or moved to their own pool where they don't have to compete against those perks for a slot, there is zero merit in adding more perks). I'd also be opposed to that because what they do, doesn't change how people play. Project: Arcology forces me to figure out how to supply my city planets, thus making sure that I'm able to produce the raw resources elsewhere so I don't bankrupt my empire. Strategic Coordination Center doesn't make me do anything differently. I'm still going to build as many ships as I can support, still fully build out choke point store bases (one more tachyon turret or more defense platforms ain't interesting gameplay wise). Sure currently could make the argument that what's left in the new megastructure perk isn't gaming changing and hopefully, the remedy that buffing those structures, so that building one of those structures means you have more leeway to focus on using planets for other things (though I'd argue the ringworld actually does achieve that, it's just really, really boring, but you can use a single habitat to feed a good size empire and still get a surplus or cover enough power generation, to squeeze out building as many mining districts as possible).

If you want meaningful, I'd argue the place to start would be getting more background civics in. Stuff where you lock yourself into certain strengths and weaknesses because you're stuck with that civic and your other choices are based around working with that hand.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

Nothing is gained by reducing the options of megastructures by artificially making them appear later in the game thanks to research.

Ecumenopolis surpass all other projects. They are available earlier and their bonuses outweigh everything in the game.

Just like Ecumenopolis and Megastructures are not equal, Megastructures itself are not equal. You try to manage this by allowing us to unlock "lesser" megastructures without the ascension perk. Now here is the problem: You now lock them behind 2 techs instead of 1 for each. You keep the restriction of only building 1 at a time. This forces us to simply build the best megastructure, or the most important one first. Its a simple opportunity cost. Whether or not they need an ascension perk does not really matter, ascension perks are not a big restriction. You only need 4 for to finish up your core empire build: The 2nd and 4th being your Ascension choice and the 3rd will always be Arcology project.

The recent changes in 2.2 included a big (and justified nerf) to Habitats which ended up a bit too much. RIngworlds have currently no justification for even existing as energy and food are unimportant ressources at the time when Ringworlds come into play, simply colonizing planets achieves the same and is cheaper.

Please don't argue "The issue is powergaming". Just because you close your eyes doesn't mean the problem goes away. The current system has some flaws like Ecumenopolis being too strong, Ringworlds being too weak and overall some megastructures are simply better than others. This probably won't change, but they can atleast be more equal by making Habitats and Ringworlds more useful and nerfing Ecumenopolis. Locking megastructures behind tech and thus time does not lessen this problem. The option to build some of them without an ascension perk only creates the illusion of choice, when in reality there is no choice thanks to opportunity cost.

 

[cblue22]

So Void borne is possible to get in the first ascension perk?

 

[SelorKiith]

I've never played a game where I didnt have every rare tech unlocked by 2400 at the latest.

That is nice for you...
As I said, I had plenty of games with a lot of stuff "missing" because of RNG.
For example the AI Assisted Colonization Tech:
Unless I take it the moment it MIGHT pop up it usually is gone for good...
I've had entire games were I had every possible prerequisite and yet didn't even get to research Cruisers until Mid-Late Game and I am definitely not alone...

 

[Belonogy]

+link the megastructure to others asciension perks

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

I've been arguing for quite some time to lock MS between different perks as well as techs, but now I'm thinking: what if there is not a hard lock but a weight modifier for tech to show?

Let the initial chance for the tech to build science nexus be very low. But if you take science related perks, finish discovery tree, have materialist authority and so on, it keeps getting bigger. This will ensure that an empire having distinct science oriented approach will get the nexus more likely than an empire without it.

 

[CrazyZombie]

I've been arguing for quite some time to lock MS between different perks as well as techs, but now I'm thinking: what if there is not a hard lock but a weight modifier for tech to show?

Let the initial chance for the tech to build science nexus be very low. But if you take science related perks, finish discovery tree, have materialist authority and so on, it keeps getting bigger. This will ensure that an empire having distinct science oriented approach will get the nexus more likely than an empire without it.

Perks act as perks because whole megastructures thing is hidden behind a paywall - it was DLC feature after all. Sure, right now it works as hilariously bad gamedesign, but that is more a business problem of game development model.

 

[Hyomoto]

Well, as I built a mod that has a very similar approach, I think its a reasonable change. Keeping all megastructures gated behind a single perk was pretty ridiculous considering there isn't a player who wouldn't be interested in them. However, I still like my approach a bit better. I changed Galactic Wonders into a perk that reduces how long it takes to research megastructures and improves your chances of pulling the tech. Even if those three are exceptionally awesome, I think the idea of having very long, and very rare techs is enough of a gatekeeper. If you want a reasonable chance to find and build all megastructures, you need certain perks. In that version, however, any empire has a chance to both pull and devote their resources to them.

In my case I also made it so some of the weaker AP's granted access to those technologies. It only ensures you'll have the option to research a particular megastructure, but it makes choosing perks a little more organic. You don't have to pick a perk that gives you the technology, you can leave it up to chance or take the GW route. In that case, the perks might just have the added bonus of extra tech options.

 

[Magdaki]

I just wanted to add my voice to the choir saying "more than one megastructure at a time please".

Sounds like good changes though.

 

[G S Palmer]

Please don't lock the megastructures behind different perks (or traditions). That just doesn't make sense: why couldn't my empire envision a science nexus without taking the related ascension perk? The idea that Vitruvian Guar posted just above this (increase tech spawning chance by taking ascension perks) is interesting though.

 

[Asyranok]

Can we please get a defensive megastructure? Maximum of one in a system. Perhaps a cap on the total number of them. In my mind, it would be a structure that allows for a multitude of defense platforms, like a starbase on steroids, but it wouldn't be able to build any ships.

Even if an empire could only have one, it would be great to be able to build it up over many years, so that you could have a platform that would allow for perhaps up to 200k fleet power on it. Since it has defense platforms built off of it, ostensibly an attacking fleet would be able to whittle down its overall fleet power well before getting to the point where it is destroyed.

 

[Duuk]

Any chance there will be a new beta this week?

 

[CrazyZombie]

Any chance there will be a new beta this week?

Not likely.

 

[Tavior]

Powergamers are going to powergame regardless, like you said- so it doesn't really matter. I want to see more varied galaxies and varied gameplay between different empires, and spreading megastructures out between other perks would accomplish that.

Who cares if the Inwards Perfection Metagame involves always picking the perk that gives you whatever megastructure- there'll already be a Inwards Perfection Metagame or whatever that involves "mandatory" perk choices anyhow. Shuffling the mandatory perks is fine.

Hmm... Not sure how to break it to ya.

Ascension list is pretty bloated and realistic you will only use 3 filler ascension perks. It is not a matter of if it is a mandatory choice or not. The reason why most ascension perks get left behind is because the player don't need it or the bonus is not attractive enough to pick up on it.

For example, a tall player will avoid the -20% influence to claim because they are not going to build dozens of outposts to rush anywhere. But they will instead pick other ones. Then vice versa for other playstyle.

Spread the megastructure over more than one perks actually encourage more of this than good player choices.