Stellaris Dev Diary #143 - Changes to megastructures

[King Travis]

Can you guys address the AI updates? Will this update change how basically building megastructures is just a way to "more win" as it stands now? You've pretty much won the game to be able to build these, making them more for role playing then really anything else.

 

[sithalo]

I thought about it, but, IMHO, things in-game should allow to represent staples and tropes. The very first Ringworld in sci-fi (at least by my knowing) was everything but not Ecumenopolis.
Still, you should be able to make one from Ringworld.

Not very representative of staples and tropes if the game only bases them on the very first of a thing lol.

One issue with that though is if Ecus get the ringworld treatment then Machine & Hive worlds need to get the same treatment.
And then if they do then supposedly they shouldnt have mining districts because thats unbalanced even though it makes sense.

Course by that logic its not balanced that Machine & Hive worlds can get unlimited mineral districts but normal empires have no way to do the same even though normal empires are the one with city sized foundries requiring massive amounts of minerals...

I didnt think it was a big deal until the comments on steam workshop wanted it to be "balanced" lol

 

[doomwarrior]

They did state at one point they were touching base with glavius, whos made a far far better AI then paradox has.

Here is a quote from glavious patch notes:

Update: 13. Apr. um 21:08 Uhr
Federation fleets are as good as they're going to get until Paradox fixes the underlying bug.

Seems like he is not as close as one might think if he can´t fix stuff closely related to AI like that. But hell ya i´d love to see him hired freelance just for that for example.

 

[UltimateTobi]

Here is a quote from glavious patch notes:
Seems like he is not as close as one might think if he can´t fix stuff closely related to AI like that. But hell ya i´d love to see him hired freelance just for that for example.

That's because that's hard code, and he can only modify soft code.
Of course he doesn't have access to source code. That doesn't mean he isn't consulted.

 

[doomwarrior]

That's because that's hard code, and he can only modify soft code.

I am aware of it, it only proves he is not too closely involved and highly depending on changes from inside the team, however it would be better if he had full access as a freelance developer that can truly do some serious fixing. I think we can all agree he kills it right now.

 

[UltimateTobi]

I am aware of it, it only proves he is not too closely involved and highly depending on changes from inside the team, however it would be better if he had full access as a freelance developer that can truly do some serious fixing. I think we can all agree he kills it right now.

I agree with you on that. If he had access to the source code, he wouldn't need all those band-aids and can right get into the nitty gritty.

 

[V-Metamorph]

What about a more conservative approach:
There are currently 3 perk about mega structures:
void borne, master builders and galactic wonders
all other more complex perk systems consist of 2 perks.
so what about:
void borne allows to build habitats plus all wonders up to stage 2 and adds the mega engineering research option (wonders are all non habitable megastructures)
it's requrements should stay similar
galactic wonders allows ringworlds and increases the max stage of the wonders to 3 adds two districts to habitats and 50% build speed for these megastructures
it should only require void borne
for parallel building of mega structures a system like for each 2500 pops you can build an additional on in parallel sounds more useful to me.

Ringworlds should get some unique districts e.g. more powerful food districts adding lets say 4 instead of two jobs, the Ecumenopolis city districts and a more powerful energy district (plus may be the habitats research districts).

The cause why many other perk are such underwhelming is that they only add some flat bonus, and a flat bonus always loses against a totally new system/option/tactic.
Some of these boni are even pretty obsolete because you ran replace the by repeatable techs.
why should one waste a perk on 30 additional empire size limit, just push science and research the repeatable.

Ecumenopolis are unbalanced as they provide extremely many industry jobs,don't require strategic resources and the are too efficient towards empire size.

I personally can't understand why to use habitats for research they only add 3 scientists jobs and you waste 10 housing for it, I place my Industry there (due to not owning megacorp) I use them as mini Ecumenopolis, because they can at least build all relevant buildings and use the now free spots on planets for research.

With the right servitude robots, you may use only 1 housing district on habitats for science purpose.

 

[AlphaAsh]

I am aware of it, it only proves he is not too closely involved and highly depending on changes from inside the team, however it would be better if he had full access as a freelance developer that can truly do some serious fixing. I think we can all agree he kills it right now.

If Glavius is being consulted, I'd assume he has to follow pretty much the same procedure any scripter within PDS does in order to make hard-code change requests. The only difference is he has an extra liason to work through first.

That's how it's always worked with every game studio I've consulted with - the liason tending to be a 'scripter' or high-level programmer (high-level as in softer-code over harder-code). Some less 'bureaucratic' studios, so-to-speak, the liason will be a designer or team leader. This was the case when I worked with FASA Interactive/Microsoft Studios.

 

[CoarmiuS]

It would be great if you move the residential station to the technology and remove the accesion perk requirement. On the other hand, I would leave the megastructures in their present form (or change some prices for example: Interstellar Assembly to the similar one that the Strategic Coordination Center has...) does not seem to be too much op.

 

[KingAlamar]

I'm not sure I will agree with anyone in the thread:

• I love the idea of making Mega Structures "rare techs"
• I love that the devs seem to be "open minded" about their approach!!!
• I don't like that "Habitats", "Colossus Project", and "Arcology Project" may not also be "techs" [At least they may consider future reworks]
• I don't like the idea that "the good MS" are still locked behind an AP

My preference for a similar rework would be:

• Make all MS "rare techs". Most of these gated behind Mega Engineering. Possibly gated behind other pre-reqs too [Ring Worlds may require "Habitat" tech??]
• Make "Colossus Project" a rare tech also. Gated behind Mega Engineering AND Titans??
• Make "Habitats" a rare tech also.
• Make "Arcology Project" a rare tech.
• Alter "Master Builders" to give +50% build speed to EVERYTHING [Planet Buildings, Starbases, Ships, upgrades, MS, etc.].
• Alter "Master Builders" to have the same tech pre-reqs as MEGA ENGINEERING while REMOVING other pre-reqs. Taking Master Builders UNLOCKS the ability to research MEGA ENGINEERING immediately.
• Alter "Galactic Wonders" so that it unlocks the ability to research ANY / ALL MS [including Colossus Project, Habitats, Arcology Project if not otherwise unlocked]

How is this any better than the proposal OR the current system:

• This serves to move MS to more of a "core gameplay experience" as long as you have the right DLCs
• There is a reason to take Master Builders even if you're NOT doing MS.
• Players that don't want to have to deal with RNG can take a pair of APs [Master Builders + Galactic Wonders]. The player still needs to RESEARCH what they want but the RNG is minimized by AP tradeoff
• Even if you want "all" MS you don't HAVE to take either Master Builders OR Galactic Wonders. This theoretically allows for more diversity in AThe AI will have an easier time building MS which might help it be more competitive
• This allows for FUTURE changes to potentially limit the number of APs taken ; tradition trees that can be fully explored ; etc.

TL/DR: Turn MORE APs into "techs" to allow for reduction in RNG and give more flexibility to make future changes & updates.

 

[Millbot]

Moving on from the previous point of discussion. I'd be remised if I didn't put a request in for gateway interaction with border friction to be re-evaluated. Given that someone needs to gain either full ownership of a hostile system (aka you simple can't just occupy it) or for an empire with open borders to them to gain full ownership of the system, to make use of a gateway in the system. Then factor in that hostile empires can't just jump through gateways into the territory of empires they are at war with. It doesn't make much sense that they even contribute to border friction, clearly empires know how to keep those locked and keep out people causing problems. For wormholes it makes sense they contribute to border friction because you can't limit who comes through it. I could even see an excuse for L-Gates being that they are broken in such a way that no one can limit traffic. Anyways, current design results in regular gateways being the sources of crazy amounts of border friction, this both reduces the value of the galactic assembly because gateway border friction easily outpaces it's opinion modifiers and also locks things firmly into the status quo.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

Frankly, I wish that all Megastructures AND ecuminopli (I will never be able to spell it right) were not locked behind Ascensions and would just be high-end research.

I'm frankly surprised that Habitats aren't considered "low tier" megastructures, having space-stations for housing shouldn't be that uncommon among late-game empires as to be something "unique".

 

[KopiG]

Even if you take the AP it's still a gamble that you'll get the tech you want in time for it to be useful

'Research option gained' means it will be available to research at the moment you take the Ascension Perk.

 

[Orphalesion]

I'm frankly surprised that Habitats aren't considered "low tier" megastructures, having space-stations for housing shouldn't be that uncommon among late-game empires as to be something "unique".

Defenitely agree on the Habitats, it should be something that is researched in techs rather than an ascension perks. In a scifi setting of the type Stellaris uses the civilizations that don't use habitats should be the more unusual.
Especially since, well, unless all those mining and research stations are automated their crew has to live there at least for extended periods of time, so we already have a sort of "micro habitats" in them (as far as lore is concerned, not gameplay) so since Habitats are basically "large space stations" it only makes sense for them to be common.

 

[KingAlamar]

'Research option gained' means it will be available to research at the moment you take the Ascension Perk.

"Research option gained" wasn't mentioned in the first post if that's what you meant.

HOWEVER: After re-reading what was posted it's possible [likely??] that they are talking about 'Research Option Gained' [No RNG] as opposed to 'Research Requirement Met' [RNG]

 

[KingAlamar]

Frankly, I wish that all Megastructures AND ecuminopli (I will never be able to spell it right) were not locked behind Ascensions and would just be high-end research.

I'm frankly surprised that Habitats aren't considered "low tier" megastructures, having space-stations for housing shouldn't be that uncommon among late-game empires as to be something "unique".

Agree 100% and even posted to that effect. I'm happy to add in Colossus Project to that list

 

[KopiG]

"Research option gained" wasn't mentioned in the first post if that's what you meant.

HOWEVER: After re-reading what was posted it's possible [likely??] that they are talking about 'Research Option Gained' [No RNG] as opposed to 'Research Requirement Met' [RNG]

Uhm its on the picture. I dont quite understand what you are trying to say.

 

[KingAlamar]

Uhm its on the picture. I dont quite understand what you are trying to say.

Effectively what I was saying is "I don't see it mentioned". Granted I didn't look that closely at the picture so I stand corrected there.

I'll update my original post to reflect the dev's intentions. Overall it's not a bad change. I think it can be improved upon though WHILE keeping the same flavor AND adding more flexibility for future updates.

 

[Mastakazam]

You'll see all the techs at one point. It may take a while, but so will building each megastructure one by one. Once you meet the requirements, you'll see it. Just research the next one the moment it pops up.

Disagree: I've even had a couple games where I was seriously economically stunted and couldn't really advance for an hour or more because 2nd-level building research options never appeared... so that could certainly happen with megastructures too.

 

[Mallz]

When is this supposed to roll out?!?