Stellaris Dev Diary #270 - Traditional Results (of Summer Experiments)

[khazit66]

With all these changes, wouldn't it be better to make it so that removing positive biological traits wasn't exclusive to the Genetic Ascension? (especially for cybernetic ascension, but also maybe for psionic?)

Second this. Or at least allow the removal of "positive" traits that are only situationally positive: Overtuned traits, Delicious, and especially Nerve stapled. This is especially noticeable if you conquer the Xenophobe FE as Egalitarian/Xenophile empires, since you're now stuck with a bunch of Nerve stapled slaves that you can never truly set free without genetic ascension.

 

[LogicMage]

I'm looking forward to open beta testing. I see a few arguments here or there about the number of tradition trees still being locked at 7. I think with Driven Assimilators having two possible ascension paths it's getting cramped. Might we consider a setting in game start allowing more tradition trees or less likely a slider?

 

[G S Palmer]

Two questions:

1. Will we still be able to get Synthetics without taking the ascension path?
2. Are cybernetic ascension and synthetic ascension going to be mutually exclusive like all other ascensions?

 

[goldennick94]

Really cool stuff here. This seems like some real game-changing stuff. I just have a few questions for @Alfray Stryke :

Question 1:
The finisher for Psionics allows us to form a Covenant with a random Shroud Entity. Is that simply opening the roll for the Shroud or does it immediately start an event with one? Also, if we decline, do we get the ability to roll for a different one (I think at some point that wasn't possible, but I can't remember).

Question 2:
The Synthetic opening on the tradition tree flowchart says: "Can require robotic leaders", but in the actual dev diary it says:

Opener

• Allows recruitment of robotic leaders

I'm not sure which one is correct, but I assume the flowchart since recruitment of robotic leaders is already possible with the Synthetic Personality Matrix tech.

Question 3: I'm surprised there isn't a cyborg trait equivalent for Domestic Protocols or Propoganda Machines. Is there any particular reason those ones weren't added? Or were those too machine-y of traits for cyborgs?

Question 4: On transgenesis, it says we can add Lithoid and Plantoid traits to their respective non-archetypes. I assume that certain overlapping traits such as budding/crystallization and delicious/felsic count as the "same" trait and you can't have both, is that correct? Also, Polymelic doesn't mention being mutually exclusive with budding so both of those can be combined, I'm assuming? Also, as a slight aside, I'm not sure if this is intentional game design but Budding is compatible with the Fertile advanced trait despite not being compatible with Rapid Breeders, but I assume Polymelic will be also be compatible with those 2 as well?

Thanks a bunch, I am super excited to look at these in depth when it's made available!

 

[khazit66]

On that note, it doesn't make sense that you can't remove the Cybernetic trait without the ascension. Given that you aren't born cyborg, even if the empire doesn't have a way to remove existing cybernetic parts without killing the host, it should have the power to stop turning new generations into cyborg. The in-game effect should be something like Neutering purge, but instead each Declined pop will result in a new pop without Cybernetic.

 

[The5lacker]

Loving most of this, but 0.5 Energy upkeep feels like a bit much for those Cybernetic traits. I don't like the sound of modifying my empire and then hitting an extra 150 Energy upkeep across my empire because I had the audacity to install a few backup computers in everyone's skulls. Was tying the upkeep increase to Trait cost considered? So Efficient Processors would still have 0.5, but the rest would be 0.25?

 

[Lorenerd11]

While much of this looks great, I am very unhappy about Transgenesis technologies. It's essentially a variation of Xenocompatibility, which I despised for the monstrosities it created and, more importantly, the approximately 20 zilliion subspecies the AI would create that helped slow the game to a crawl. I was thrilled to have the option to turn Xenocompatibility off, but now it'll be right back in the game again because even I don't take it, the AI often will.

What do you mean? Transgenesis technologies just means unlocking extra traits and the Lithoid and Plantoid traits can be pretty useful. The AI adding these traits isn't much more of an issue than AI genetic modification otherwise is.

 

[Ikael]

I'm imagining a Mega-Mecha-church. Basically if Priest (2011) and Cyberpunk had a baby.

Also somewhere in the cyborg tree there is a statement that they can assemble cyborg pops... I wonder if we'll be able to assemble cyber-zombies?

23rd century witch burnings by unhappy materialist pops vs psi-awakened ones are needed.

Yessss. Man, there are like, so, so many possibilities regarding both external and internal politics regarding ascensions. Very little has been exploited in that regard, asides from a very limited robot uprising and the non-decision of making AI legal or not.

I mean:

- Can unsanctioned psikers live freely inside your empire? Would you risk rifts in the Shroud just to please your egalitarian faction and their whole "leave mutants free" stick?
- Can people cyber-mod themselves inside cybernetically ascended empires? Will it be a state-sanctioned activity? Will it increase the differences between the haves and have-nots that can afford augmentation?
- Will hiveminds learn to form symbiotic federations with regular empires now that they have biologically ascended and can relate better to individual minds?
- Will spiritualists worship the ghosts that reside within the chromed shells of synths?
- How does bio ascension interact with selected lineages and similar policies? Will your society stratify into actual biological castes?
- Can you form a pan-Galactic coalition in order to embark on a Butlerian jihad? Perhaps one crusade against Shroud "gods" so you can liberate the warp?
- Can you unify the entire galaxy under the wise custodianship of say, an omniscient AI once you undertake the synth ascension?

Man, there are a billion possibilities left to explore in this regard. I say "hell yeah" to sci-fy politics.

 

[Aëron Dúrr]

I like those changes and the addition of cybernetics as a seperate ascension path.
Is it possible to pick more than one of them if they don't exclude each other, like for example genetic and cybernetic ascension?

 

[Lorenerd11]

On that note, it doesn't make sense that you can't remove the Cybernetic trait without the ascension. Given that you aren't born cyborg, even if the empire doesn't have a way to remove existing cybernetic parts without killing the host, it should have the power to stop turning new generations into cyborg. The in-game effect should be something like Neutering purge, but instead each Declined pop will result in a new pop without Cybernetic.

I've suggested before that pop aging and generational turnover could be simulated in-game, and HFY helped with a promising idea for implementation.

Basically, each pop would have set lifespan, same as the leader lifespan. When a pop dies, it would be immediately replaced by a new pop of the same species. But while the species is the same, perhaps you could set it so that it uses a different template.

I think it'd be cool if the game allowed you to naturally "phase out" obsolete templates and replace them with the new ones.

 

[The5lacker]

I've suggested before that pop aging and generational turnover could be simulated in-game, and HFY helped with a promising idea for implementation.

Basically, each pop would have set lifespan, same as the leader lifespan. When a pop dies, it would be immediately replaced by a new pop of the same species. But while the species is the same, perhaps you could set it so that it uses a different template.

I think it'd be cool if the game allowed you to naturally "phase out" obsolete templates and replace them with the new ones.

So ignoring how Overtuned would allow you to have this simulation run literally every game tick for ever pop across your entire empire, doesn't that make the likes of Venerable *actively detrimental* for gene-modding empires?

 

[Tobasco da Gama]

How do the changes to Synthetic Ascension impact the AI Rebellion? The Rebellion was arguably already too easy to avoid, and now it'll be even easier for empires that weren't planning to go down the Synthetic route.

 

[Lorenerd11]

So ignoring how Overtuned would allow you to have this simulation run literally every game tick for ever pop across your entire empire, doesn't that make the likes of Venerable *actively detrimental* for gene-modding empires?

You could still modify them, but they'd take longer to be naturally phased out.

 

[The5lacker]

You could still modify them, but they'd take longer to be naturally phased out.

So "Yes, that WOULD make Venerable actively detrimental."

 

[Lorenerd11]

So "Yes, that WOULD make Venerable actively detrimental."

Perhaps there could be additional bonuses to having older pops to balance that out?

 

[EuropaCam]

What do you mean? Transgenesis technologies just means unlocking extra traits and the Lithoid and Plantoid traits can be pretty useful. The AI adding these traits isn't much more of an issue than AI genetic modification otherwise is.

In part because you can wind up with things that really don't make sense/are immersion-breaking even in a sci-fantasy game, for example humans with budding. Also the more options the AI has to make sub-variants, the more it will do so while the species tab is typically a crowded mess as is.

If you're fine with all that, more power to you. With Xenocompatibility, Paradox recently gave us the option to turn it off if we didn't want it in our games, but it doesn't look that will be the case with Transgenesis technologies.

 

[Losttruppen]

This was considered, but we wanted players to both be able to have an ascension path and take the become the crisis path without them interfering with each other.

Why would one exclude the other?

I would say this is giving the better mechanic to a niche DLC-locked meme AP choice and using that as a reason to exclude it from 99% of the rest of the playerbase(utopia is by far the most popular DLC). The vast majority of people will select one of the three ascension paths in every game, where most people will only play BtC once or twice if they even bought it. I think I have selected End of the Cycle more often than I've played BtC.

Please don't withhold mechanics because of a small amount of overlap.

The opportunity cost of taking an ascension path and thus having one less tradition tree was considered a positive aspect of this rework.

I would disagree. There is a pretty clear hierarchy of AP choices with a few niche options for special empires or game settings. Traditions since 3.5 have become more open with regards to what I choose in every game and I feel this change will revert that somewhat.

I'm not a balance expert but I think the boni of the AP and the opener should be swapped, this will both make you play a bit more with a not fully developed Psionic Species and uniform the opener for Regular and Teachers of the Shroud Empires

I agree, why would I spend an AP if all I get is a fancy army. There doesn't seem to be any reason to take a partial ascent.

 

[Archael90]

IMO we should first ask what is general direction, purpouse and distinction between ascension paths, so taht those would not be just different theme bonusses, but different gameplays.
Example:
psionic vs synthetic = pop quality and randomness (both the shroud and pop traits) vs pop quantity and strict chosen plans.
genetic vs cybernetic = pop trait quality (less picks but more powerfull traits) vs pop trait quantity (more picks but weaker traits overall).
and then go straight that way.
IMO synth lacks pop growth, and cybernetics lack trait points overall.

 

[Lorenerd11]

In part because you can wind up with things that really don't make sense/are immersion-breaking even in a sci-fantasy game, for example humans with budding.

I mean it does actually make sense for a civilization that achieved mastery over biology to be able to do a lot of things that seem unnatural to us.

 

[FleetingRain]

The Synthetic Age ascension looks very... underwhelming. Honestly the best thing in it is reducing pop template clutter.