Stellaris Dev Diary #270 - Traditional Results (of Summer Experiments)

[Abdulijubjub]

Polymelic, Budding, Vat Grown pops coming in at .07*(1+.2+.25)=.1015 assembly per pop (with gene clinics). That means they trend toward 2.5 months per pop as you approach infinite pops on one world, not ~11 months per pop with Budding. Combine with doubled clone vats and matriarch parade (for a base of 7*1.45=10.15 assembly per month), and you can really get the pop printer going on larger worlds.

I'm excited by the prospect of even faster growing Utopian Abundance zombies. Especially if they now make .025 alloys each (times monthly alloys). Late game knights are better than ever!

Side note: after this, synthetic will get +4.6 growth (5.2 with Mechanist), psionic will have the normal amount, cybernetic will also have the normal amount (though with robot assembly replaced with cyborg assembly), and genetic ascension will get the +1.35 from Fertile-Budding, and an insane 8.7+.02*1.45 per-pop assembly (since you can have a Fertile subspecies that grows organically and a vat grown species that's only assembled without any conflict, especially with access to a zombie template).

Isn't that just inverting the current growth imbalance of synthetic getting +10 while genetic ascension gets around +4.35 (from vats + fertile)? Why not make them roughly equal?

While I like genetic ascension and would love to get more pops, I don't think making it go from "one of the ascension paths gives bonkers numbers of pops" to "the other ascension path gives bonkers numbers of pops" is an improvement.

 

[Turnil]

For clarity, can this stack with Thrifty, for +50% TV from jobs?

Yes

These traits make use of normal biological trait point and pick limits, but are not blocked by any biological traits.

 

[UBERWASP]

Only problem I have is the robo cow with red eyes. I’ll make a simple mod changing that, add that change in another mod.

 

[Ludaire]

Since determined assimilators get access to cybernetics, is there any chance Rogue Servitors could get Engineered Evolution? Using my ascension path to genetically improve my bio trophies' health and happiness sounds like a really cool fantasy. It seems like you could enable it for Rogue Servitors as-is without any major issues, since it's already set up to work with gestalts even if it might be a bit underwhelming.

If possible, it would be cool if Rogue Servitors got a few extra things out of it to make our bio trophies provide value beyond unity and stability. Maybe we could get access to a limited number of bio assistant jobs on each organic sanctuary instead of cloning vats? It would be cool if that job type could see more usage.

 

[Vorpaliminal]

And how is that relevant to them stuffing ME's into a nerfed synth ascension, where they don't even get half of the boni? Or to the "strange" trait artwork?

The listed changes are outright improvements to what Machines get now. As stated, Synthetic Age right now gives +2 trait points and -33% modification cost. The proposed changes still give them +2 trait points, bump up the modification discount to 50%, and then give them: the Synthetic trait, +10% machine job output, -10% amenity use, earlier access to the +1 trait pick, and will probably let them use all their trait points on any robots they acquire from normal empires by outright converting them to your main species if I understand this correctly.

 

[Ferrus Animus]

Alright, with all these changes, an overwork of the species screen and genemodding is a must.

While we can now have overtuned cyborg lithoids, interacting with that mess will be a massive pain.
Maybe this an issue where you could open a megathread to collect ideas, because I know plenty players have suggestions.

• Telepaths previously provided a planet-wide +5% Resources from Pops modifier, this has been replaced with a +5% Resources from Psionic Pops so that non-Psionic pops in your empire no longer have their performance improved by the presence of Telepaths. However, this modifier increases to +10% when the Breach the Shroud tradition is taken, meaning that the two Telepath jobs from a Psi-Corp building will provide +20% to the resource output of the planet if all pops working are Psionic. So although a Psionic empire may have fewer pops than the other Ascension Paths, those pops should be more efficient.

Can we instead maybe have this changed to a policy?
The Mindflayer Interstellar empire does not see value in sharing the secrets of mind magic with its food/slaves and instead prefers to mentally control them for better efficiency.

IMO this change basically means +20% output if you make everyone psionic, or +0% if you don't.
A policy could give that bonus to psionic or non-psionic pops and maybe offer a few alternative uses for the Telepaths that fit other empire narratives better.

• The finisher for the tradition tree grants 50 edict fund and more importantly a Special Project that when completed will allow you to form a Covenant with a random Shroud Entity.

Can this project please be a prerequisite for other covenant offers in the shroud so it allows people to ignore them by not completing the project? (Until the Contingency spawns and they cry for help to any god who might listen).

Genetic Ascension Path

No big issues here, just something I would like to see:
Make Genetic Ascension a more fitting option for the Clone Soldier origin.
It is a bit irksome, that Clone Soldiers can never overcome the limits palced on them by their creators and always play second fiddle.
My suggestions:
Clone Vats give them a planetary extra clone soldier pop limit of 5.
After finishing the ascension tradition clone soldies can genetically modify themselves, but the Clone Soldier pop traits have a suitable high trait cost.

 

[Red Earth]

Since pop traits are a big factor in this update, I'd like to call attention to forced pop growth.

Now that growth costs scale logarithmically, the loss of 50% progress from changing pop growth selection can add many years to growth time. Even the 10% loss on pop assembly can add years. Missing out on that pop working a job for years often outweighs any benefit from having a selected pop with specific traits. Delaying pop growth for a month to get a 10% increase in output would require 10 months to make up for the loss. If it's a year, then 10 years before the decision breaks even and becomes a benefit. One can change pop growth selection right after a pop grows, but its tough to remember when and where to return with dozens of planets with different growth stages.

Thus, I propose shift-click to set the next pop to grow as an option, rather than switching immediately at a loss.
This should also work when going from forced growth to Any Species. The reason one switched from forced growth to any pop growth is to remove the growth penalty from forced growth. If you lose progress on the current pop to do that, it could take decades to break even for that decision.

If y'all are adding ways to make pops more specialized for specific jobs, you don't want to discourage players from making those pops for those jobs.

 

[Night565]

The opportunity cost of taking an ascension path and thus having one less tradition tree was considered a positive aspect of this rework.

Thank you. RIght now there isn't much choice involved in tradition tree's, there are too few and its easy to get every good one. This gives more impactful choices to tradition trees and also frees up a ascension perk slot. Ascension perks are currently hard to experiment with because I find all the really good ones fill up all my slots and I have few flavorful choices to make. This trade I think is very good for the games current state.

 

[Kahldris]

Wow, this is some great stuff. Can someone give a promotion to whoever made Alfray a game designer?

This looks very cool! Going to add alot of spice, and now I can say this.

WE ARE THE BORG!

 

[Nazarius40000]

I use Google translator.

Hello everyone! I would like to comment on the update.

Cybernetics against the background of biology with its improved signs and signs of transgenesis looks somehow dull. As for me, biology will be very unbalanced now, since clone factories will produce 6 units per month, and if you take +25% in the person of Vat-Grown + 20% from doctors (who also strengthen the assembly of the population through clone factories) this will be 8.7 units per month. -25% increase for a biologist is a minor minus, it is easily overlapped by both technology and its improved features. And if you play through overclocked, then it's generally a horror.

Genetics, if they do not correct the tradition of clone factories and do not strengthen the other ways of elevation, will be the most powerful elevation, which will put pressure purely by force economically (more population - better economy) of all others.

How do I see an adequate balance:
-Psionics are given friendlier entities from the cover, which do not give buffs, since the current ones do more harm than more. The same compilers of chains that break the signs of race for you (and with which you can't do anything). Eater of Worlds and completely destroy the planet. And so on through the list of creatures from the cover that give debuffs.
-Cybernetics to reduce energy consumption from 0.50 to 0.25, because in the early stages of the game it will hit the economy, given the fact that no one said anything about reducing the food content. Well, to prescribe purely unique signs for cyborgs, since robotic ones look somehow weak anyway (again, against the background of biology, where there are signs of overclocked and improved signs).
- Synthetics just give another collector and that's it.
-And biology to reduce (or even remove) the power of upgrading clone factories.

In general, I feel positive emotions from this and am looking forward to it. And in general, it's cool, especially new signs from geneticists. But one thing bothers me: the speed of getting elevation.
Psionic theory when playing for an ordinary empire can be expected for decades up to a hundred or more years of play. And now we still need to open the tradition (this is even more expensive, because the psionic theory can fall out at any time on a pure random). Opening a tradition also removes one tradition from the main pool, as well as pushes the rest. Let's simulate the situation: the player closed two traditions "Discovery" and "Prosperity", he was lucky and he studied psionic theory and took "Mind over matter". Now he has to spend some time discovering the tradition of elevation. All this removes one of the main advantages of psionics - quick completion at an early stage of the game.

 

[Oculument]

In my opinion, the synthetic ascension path for machines is not very interesting because it lacks flavor and because it is the only path machine that aren't driven assimilators can take.

Biological empires and biological hive minds get several mutually exclusive ascension paths that, in my opinion, represent their empire embracing wacky sci-fi concepts such as psionics, radical genetic engineering, and mind uploading.

On the other hand, non-driven assimilator machine empires get one ascension path that just seems to represent them making their robots better. I don't think it is nearly as flavorful as the ascension paths biological empires get.

I understand if this is outside the scope of the planned changes to ascension paths, but I wish every machine empire type had at least two flavorful, mutually exclusive ascension paths they could take.

Machine empires are already one of those ascension paths, you got a full step on the bio empires. No need to ascend at all or manage happiness or have concern with habitability .... get on with the galactic scale game.

 

[Silesian Burd]

It, uh, seems like there are some pretty hefty nerfs to Psionics here... And now that there will be no randomly-appearing Psionic technologies if you have Utopia, what will happen to the Expertise in Psionics leader trait? And are "The Ineffibles" (nice name for the entities by the way) going to have their deals retuned, so that dealing with them is slightly more worth it? The entire bottom half of the Tradition tree is worse than the top half. Also RIP Psionic Lightning.

As for the Genetic tree, why is Cloning now a Tradition? That seems a bit creepy. How much tech is going to be just GONE now? Will new tech replace it, to compensate Expertise in Biology? You just reworked the Javorian Pox Sample to give Biology Research boosts, and people are already saying that isn't enough.

As for the Cybernetic tree, Double-Jointed is just plain horrific to imagine. Could that please be mutually exclusive to traits that depend on the biological parts, such as Strong and Rapid Breeders? Why is Durable (something that would practically solve Happiness) only 1 point? And will assembling Cyborgs convert regular Pops being born into Cyborgs a la assimilation (thereby replacing Pop Growth), or will it be taking a little from every other Pop that exists to create something new?

As for the Synthetic tree, I find it amusing, but why is it pegged to Droids instead of Synthetics? Is it just because of the Limbo Event Chain? Will the Synthetics technology not be available to those who started the Synthetic chain? And can completing the chain please allow regular empires to build Mega-Warforms?

And can we please get something for making gigantic/titanic Pops/armies?

 

[HiddenWings]

It seems like a bit of a flavor miss that "Here be Dragons" empires can't get drake-scaled without having to hunt down another dragon. If you're hatching the things, I feel like you should be able to get a sample.

(I also feel this way about Artificial Dragonscales, but that one at least makes sense from a balance perspective.)

 

[aadf97799c]

more advanced trait are great
maybe even a 40% amenity trait
voidling are far too good to leave to chance
always hoped assimilator can go full cyborg instead of using machine pop
cybernetic and psionic couldn't remove existing trait will always be inconvenient
especially for cybernetic since there wouldn't be much room for robot trait
regular empire synthetic route should also allow assimilate any other robot and machine pop into main species
since biological have in and out hive mind thing
mechanists seems a little overpowered
pop assemble speed bonus are pretty rare
really need more negative and tradeoff trait for every type of pop
things like overtune trait should be far more common instead of just one origin
so few choices compare to positive trait

 

[Gorehuchi]

Will the Synthetic leader traits still be strictly better than cybernetic leader traits, or will they be balanced/made more different?

 

[Foromar]

The listed changes are outright improvements to what Machines get now. As stated, Synthetic Age right now gives +2 trait points and -33% modification cost. The proposed changes still give them +2 trait points, bump up the modification discount to 50%, and then give them: the Synthetic trait, +10% machine job output, -10% amenity use, earlier access to the +1 trait pick, and will probably let them use all their trait points on any robots they acquire from normal empires by outright converting them to your main species if I understand this correctly.

And? That sounds like a basic tradition tree to me and not like an ascension.
No shroud, no improved perks, nothing that is in any sort of form special.

They apparently had the time to design a whole new planet type just for DA's, but couldn't be bothered to give base ME's anything unique?

 

[OnyxAbussos]

I COMPLETELY LOVE THIS.
Thank you thank you thank you.
This is so righteous.

 

[Madgt123]

Can Synthetic Evoultion get the colossosus option to turn habitatet worlds into nanite worlds?
the game needs more ways to generate nanites.

 

[Kiwibaum]

• Completing Genetic traditions allows you to research special Transgenesis technologies. These technologies allow you to add Lithoid traits to non-Lithoids, Plantoid traits to non-Plantoids/Fungoids, and if you’ve harvested the DNA from certain Leviathans, you can splice some rather special traits into your species’ genetic code. The Leviathan traits available are:
  • Drake-Scaled (Ether Drake, Shard, Sky Dragon)
    • This trait requires that the player has harvested the genetic material from a space dragon (Ether Drake, Shard, or Sky Dragon). This is presented as an event option when the leviathan is slain.
    • Cost: 3
    • Each pop produces 0.025 monthly Alloys.
    • +50% Army Health
    • Mutually exclusive with other resource generating traits.

If we have the here be dragons origin and ask the sky dragon nicely, can he grant us genetic material, without having to kill him?

 

[StJimmyRocks92]

Oooh this is so great!

A small nitpick though, now that synthetic and cybernetic ascension are two different things...can the flesh is weak project not upset the traditionalist factions anymore?

We could finally have the adeptus mechanicus!

May the very least let us have a Tech Priest civic that is happy with cybernetics but not AI