Stellaris Dev Diary #60: Psionics and The Shroud

[The Founder]

Whatever you do: Do not Blink!

 

[Xoatl]

...actually, my problem with Psi locked into Spiritualist Ethos is that there is used so many B5 references, and B5 humans are not spiritualists, even if you looks into all that religious remaining. I mean, Minbari are spiritualists, sure, but not humans.
One more problem (gameplay problem I mean) I see - what is the chance with materialistic or fanatic materialistic to have spiritualist faction to change ethic?
Maybe it's better not to lock Psi to everybody but Spiritualists, but made every psionic pop very likely to join spiritualist (psionic) faction, who wants to live in spiritualist empire, so you should find a way to make them happy or turn spirit, and also rise a spiritualist ethic pressure in empire? Then it's not locks a ascension to one ethic, and in the end psionic empires will be spiritual kind of naturally (or somehow else managed to make their happiness). Same for materialists and robots - you can have materialists cyborgs in non-materialist empire, but they tend to join materialistic faction. Not "you must be spiritualist/materialist to do psi/cyborg stuff", but "if you're doing psi/cyborg stuff you became spiritualist/materialist".

I agree with this, the first stages of the three main ascension paths should be open or at least somehow easier to access. For instance, so long as you aren't fanatic materialist you can get the first stage of psi ascension perhaps. I want that internal struggle as the POPs in my empire lean towards different masteries (and subsequent factions). I also want some potential to have interesting hybrids.

 

[Heretic Saint]

And in my experience, Libertarians have no philosophical problem with selling genetic enhancements, they assume that so long as it's not the government enforcing it it's okay.

Libertarians aren't necessarily Egalitarians, though -- the former term has become quite muddled by various different leanings, some of which I'd argue go against the original meaning of the word.

If I may make a movie recommendation: "Gattaca" is an interesting glimpse at a possible future where a lack of social balance results in only portions of the populace reaping the benefits of genetic enhancements... Not too dissimilar from availability of education in some countries, too.

Once only part of your population gets biomodded, you effectively end up with "subraces" whose treatment will ultimately differ, be it based on bias or actual skill, or a combination of both. Yet if you want your entire species to undergo such changes, you'd have to enforce them, just like Authoritarian governments are more likely to greenlight human experimentation.

iirc, the Federation in Star Trek has banned genetic manipulation for the exact same reasons. It was the subject of several episodes in TNG and DS9.

The source of the biotics in Mass Effects the Asari have been historically a very spiritual species, for the longest time believing the Protheans that are responsible for increased element zero on their homeworld were Gods. Warhammer psykers tap energy from the warp, very much a topsie turvy world of the immaterium where pure thought, consciousnesses, and psychic energy reign supreme, time is non-linear and its ruled by literally 4 GODS. I just started watching babylon 5. Protoss has a spiritual society. Bene Gesserit is literally a religious organization, Spice Melange is a psychotropic drug that gives users prophetic powers.

I mean you can be wrong, just don't be this wrong.

There are more biotics in the ME setting than just the Asari; you've already pointed out how the source of their psionic power is from eezo exposure rather than cultural indoctrination.

Even IF we'd describe the Asari as a spiritual people (what I can agree on), the setting is the perfect example of why psionics can appear in multiple Ethoses. That some biotics may be Spiritualists arguably did not mean all of them are.

The same applies to StarCraft: just because Protoss are Spiritualists does not make Terrans Spiritualists, too, yet they have their own telepaths.

The Warp also has no inherent connection to Spiritualism; it affects everyone and merely serves as a conduit and you do not have to be spiritual to be linked to it. Even the Imperium's psykers existed long before the Imperium's state religion.

Lastly, the Bene Gesserit's usage of breeding programs and the very drug you mention is just another piece of evidence of how psionic ability has an innate *physical* requirement rather than being a product of faith alone. Even Stellaris' ascension dialogue suggests so.

"I mean you can be wrong, just don't be this wrong."

 

[Chester Rico]

This is total bollocks. Psionics shouldn't be locked into spiritualist ethics.

The Kzinti, the humans in Babylon 5, the Terrans in Starship Troopers... None of these are spiritualists.
You could argue about the Vulcans from Star Trek, they have some spiritualist characteristics, but in the context of this game they would be fanatic materialists/xenophiles.

Why should only the religious fanatics get psionic powers? It boggles the mind and it doesn't make for good science fiction in my opinion. I really hope you'll reconsider.

Edit: at least give the other ethics a chance to gain psionics by other means (think Spice from Dune, or genetic manipulation.)

 

[Wizzington]

The way I view it, you can have one and only one of the two following things:
1) Distinct ethics that have their own unique playstyles.
2) No ethics restrictions on mechanics.

I consider #1 to be more important, so that's the direction we'll be going. It'll be fully moddable, of course.

 

[aono]

Unless I'm mistaken Asari were the first FTL species and were spiritualists on their planet for the longest time. They evolved on a planet heavily filled with the substance that gives them biotic powers by the Protheans which they considered Gods and built temples to them all around their planet.

First is kinda right (if you add "this cycle" of course), second is kinda wrong. Their politics wasn't build around "hey, gods says us do so!" or "we need to be what our gods demanded!". There is spiritual race in ME galaxy, and that's hanars. I firmly believe that having religion somewhen in your history (and even now!) don't makes you spiritualists.
Anyway, even if we looks to asari as "spiritual" (and I believe it's wrong), it's not their spirituality made them biotics, but Protean stellar and genetic engineering.

 

[aono]

The way I view it, you can have one and only one of the two following things:

If I may have an opinion, I can offer third thing - it's your playstyle set your ethic, not vise versa. Now, when ethoses are not clad in bronze, it is quite logical, no?

 

[Jean-Luc]

If I may have an opinion, I can offer third thing - it's your playstyle set your ethic, not vise versa. Now, when ethoses are not clad in bronze, it is quite logical, no?

So what happens when your play style ends up getting all of the ethos defining technologies? You end up with a race that's materialist/spiritualist/pacifist/militarist/xeno-phobe-phile/etc.?

 

[znuzzo]

Just wanted to say, this looks spectacular! Great job, Team Stellaris!

 

[TheCatWithTheHat]

I was wondering looking at this, do robotic leaders still die since there is a new materialistic path? The only reason I found it hard to play as AI personally was that the leaders died, which made no sense to me, especially since one of the quotes of the materialistic path was: "Soon immortality will be within our grasp" or something like that.

 

[Xoatl]

There are more biotics in the ME setting than just the Asari; you've already pointed out how the source of their psionic power is from eezo exposure rather than cultural indoctrination.

Even IF we'd describe the Asari as a spiritual people (what I can agree on), the setting is the perfect example of why psionics can appear in multiple Ethoses. That some biotics may be Spiritualists arguably did not mean all of them are.

The same applies to StarCraft: just because Protoss are Spiritualists does not make Terrans Spiritualists, too, yet they have their own telepaths.

The Warp also has no inherent connection to Spiritualism; it affects everyone and merely serves as a conduit and you do not have to be spiritual to be linked to it. Even the Imperium's psykers existed long before the Imperium's state religion.

Lastly, the Bene Gesserit's usage of breeding programs and the very drug you mention is just another piece of evidence of how psionic ability has an innate *physical* requirement rather than being a product of faith alone. Even Stellaris' ascension dialogue suggests so.

"I mean you can be wrong, just don't be this wrong."

Okay I think materialists should be able to get some level of psionics, I agreed with you on that. For realism sake, but there is a tendency for psychics to be spiritual and the most powerful often are.

Asari were the FIRST FTL species and are directly responsible in educating the younger races on biotics and eezo. Protoss psykers are more powerful than terrans, their spirituality likely has a part to play in that. You can never convince me the warp in 40k has nothing to do with spiritualism, the lords of that realm are preoccupied in harvesting souls, that's like ALL they want to do. Terran psykers are looked at with suspicion due to their tendency of easily being corrupted by the power of chaos, they have a much stronger openness to the warp and that's a two way street. Hence whole planets fell due to psykers suddenly deciding to let the voices from the warp take control. You're ready to make a lot of assumptions that I'm not. I don't blame you, I'm sure you dismiss the notion of a spiritual world. But who knows what that could entail. Perhaps the gradual progress the species has to go through in material space (no matter their ascension goals) is a non-issue. Often times the "warp", "fade", "heaven", "dreamland", "Aetherius" etc is often described as a place where mere thought shapes the world. In a universe like that consciousness can do anything. Additionally time is non-linear, entering in and out of the warp will land you in unknown places at unknown times. Essentially the inversed image of the material reality, where we are severely limited and bound to linear time and space. You act like the occasional psionic stimulant to fast-track what would take centuries of meditation and selective breeding is somehow a smoking gun that psionics is a material pursuit. It's not and neither was I saying faith alone is important.

EDIT: There is a ton of baggage I notice when I discuss this on this forum. Spirituality =/= faith, religion, god, bibles. Spirituality is the belief of a "divine spark", a soul, or a spirit. The roles it plays, what it can do, where it goes, who it answers to, its relation to you as an entire being (Egyptian mythology holds that there are three souls, each governing different parts of you) etc is up to religion and every individual to decide. Spirituality is best left as syncretistic as possible and up to the experiences of the individual. Now you can always ignore your intuition and stick to facts, figures, and numbers. But I doubt it'll get you very far in psionics if you're so resistant of the notion that souls exist. Typically, if you go down this path, it's said the first step is to accept it as real. But I'm sure you're too clever to give that any credit.

 

[Riekopo]

Don't let the Chaos gods in

 

[WhaleThemedMercandise]

*Looks on from the mechanical throne of the Materialist Empire*
See? Silly Spiritualists! I told you all that they'd kill everyone by messing with things they don't understand!

Now where is that sentient AI tech?

 

[Dodonpa]

May the Shroud be with you.

 

[aono]

So what happens when your play style ends up getting all of the ethos defining technologies?

I believe you'll have some powerful factions each one hating you for having this cyborgs/psykers/supermutants (and if you have them on one planet, they will also hate each other as xenophobes hates xenos), with a lot of unrest, very high unity costs (because with seven slots you'll have three-and-half of them, and if eigth slot opens by some another possibility - it's four), polared options, low happiness (and that means low production) and crap influence.
Then, if unrest and factions are working properly, if you managed to conquer galaxy with all that penalties, you earn your right to have such playground.

You end up with a race that's materialist/spiritualist/pacifist/militarist/xeno-phobe-phile/etc.?

Actually, IF we saying that race should have dynamic ethics that can be changed, and it's pop ethics are changed by gameplay, you WILL end with such a race, you just should select from all that options.
After all, imagine that - you had a xenophile pacifist race, you select such playstyle, and bam, crazy stellarfish in the border declare you a war (and your pops became militarist), said crazy stellarfish managed to get two planets from you, eaten your race members (so your pops became xenophobe), so your playstyle is screwed anyway. If you already build your empire around it, it's ragequit.

 

[Xoatl]

I consider #1 to be more important, so that's the direction we'll be going. It'll be fully moddable, of course.

I think this is an important thing to remember, let the devs roll out new features before they or the most popular overhaul mods start fleshing them out. But I do hope that future mods allow you to hybrid a little more. Maybe add more ascension perk choices (or limit the total slots). More techs is also important. Like just because there's a rise in psychics after picking the stage 1 perk doesn't mean you can automatically construct armies and psi corps. This could hopefully combat the feeling of everyone being the same. The AI, after researching cyborg armies and making cyborg army facilities should be very unlikely from starting research on psi army tech if that becomes available through unlocking the perk.

 

[Mauer]

I always go with materialist because the research boon is too tempting to pass up, but not anymore I guess!

 

[Heretic Saint]

The way I view it, you can have one and only one of the two following things:
1) Distinct ethics that have their own unique playstyles.
2) No ethics restrictions on mechanics.

Isn't there potential for a third way?

3) Ethics may impose partial restrictions on mechanics, but the basics are there for everyone. In addition, said basics will be reacted upon differently by pops depending on ethos.

Imagine if non-spiritualist empires would have some of their pops become psionic, and rarely spawn a psionic leader. In a materialist empire, this could generate a similar level of unhappiness as with spiritualist pops and robots. You could even use the new species rights feature to artificially curtail telepath procreation. Doesn't that sound just as unique, and - perhaps just as important - even more exciting?

Okay I think materialists should be able to get some level of psionics, I agreed with you on that. For realism sake, but there is a tendency for psychics to be spiritual and the most powerful often are.

That's pretty much all I want!

It's why I am in favor of making only the first tier of psionic stuff unrestricted. I agree with Wiz that ethoses should feel unique (even if I think government types would warrant even more unique mechanics, a la Stellaris Zero), I just don't think it should be a simple yes/no but rather "degrees" of aptitude and pops or factions having unique reactions to these new mechanics. It just feels as if this would allow for more creative freedom and more interesting gameplay. Imagine if you were playing a materialist empire that has a few telepathic pops, then a faction comes up wanting to ban them. We already have this to a degree when it comes to Spiritualist empires and robot Pops. Why is it any different with psionics?

In Mass Effect, Humans were experimenting with eezo and biotics without alien influence. They did so via covert experiments, quite materialistic in nature. It's probably also the justification for why they are using head implants, something I have a feeling Asari biotics don't engage in, or at least not as a widespread practice.

As for the Warp, the "lords" of said realm are a gestalt consciousness of all the thoughts and dreams poured into the Immaterium, no matter if the origin was spiritual or not. A "soul" in 40k has nothing to do with spirituality either, it's just a glob of psychic energy attached to everyone's physical body. Even Tau have souls, yet they can't have psykers, and their soul has so little energy that it barely registers in the Warp.

In the end, I'm not saying that psionics is a necessarily Materialist pursuit. But it can be (see Terran Ghosts, 40k Navigators, ME Human Biotics), just like it can be a product of Spiritualist soul-searching. As I mentioned previously, the key element I see here is mental discipline, but this isn't something I'd associate solely with spiritualism. Many roads lead to Rome.

 

[Krajzen]

There should be a Shroud crisis - it's unfair how only Materialists can bring doom upon themselves

 

[Luzahn]

Welp, I guess it's time to go all Necron and transfer everyone to immortal robot bodies. I'm sure the Shroud can't catch you if your brain is just a computer.

(We didn't need those pesky souls anyway.)