Stellaris Dev Diary #60: Psionics and The Shroud

[aono]

There's also the fact that the Jedi obviously have forms of orthodoxy in regards to their beliefs surrounding the force - as many Jedi are referred to having unorthodox view about it - and they were willing to enforce this orthodoxy enough to try to purge the Sith on multiple occasions.

Sure. That's why I'm trying to say when defending an idea that psi should invoke spiritualism, not opposite way.
I mean, well... it's not as "hey, we have our believes about balance and something interconnecting every live thing - ahhh, our believes gave us Force!!!". It's "hey, we have knowledge by experience that something interconnecting everything and that some cosmic balance exists - what should we do and think about it?" Same with asari example - "hey, this guys with funny heads and four eyes gave us food, tools and abilities to move stones with our minds, I believe they're GODS!", not "hey, this guys are GODS, let's venerate them - wow, now I can move stones with my mind!". In Warhammer universe you can actually use robots and computers to fly through Warp - it's just not so effective as psyker navigation, but it was kinda advanced in DTA. And if you have reliably advanced tech to understand psi, you can not create philosophical system about it at all - Psi Corps in B5 is an astonishing example of "nothing spiritual here" (even if it actually is!), and it's selected as iconic example of latent psi in game.

The Spiritualist/Materialist dichotomy here isn't so much faith versus science, it's transcendent vs mundane, nonphysical vs physical.

And my ability to argue with people in thousands kms around me is transcedent. It's an ability only mages and saints have.
Oh wait, it's kind of 21st century here...

There's already evidence of psi-phenomenon and parapsychological events in the real world but that is swept under the rug by our largely Materialist academia. For centuries scientists who had spiritualist bends were pushed aside in the historic conversation if at all possible.

I'm feeling a pain here. My collegue researched ESP (now she has another study field). ESP was quite a respectable field in 50ths, Feinman wrote an chapter how he used to look into such researches. Damn, we had methods - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zener_cards, for example, that's what our materialistic academia do!
Problem is that ESP people can't give reliable results.

Anyone else have a feeling that everyone's gonna at least try one Spiritualist play through first thing after this launches (if only temporarily until psychic powers are achieved then shift away)?

Bolded is bothering me, truth to be said.
If it said, that locking psi to spiritualist should create an unique playstyle, and if it's hardly needed for replayability, we had only two options.
1. If you change your ethos, your achievements on selected ethos way is burned. You became materialists from spiritualists, blam, all your psykers are burned down, you have dead-weight ascension perks (or you have them refunded?)
2. If you change your ethos, all your achievements remains. Hello, materialist/spiritualist/pacifist/militarist/xeno-phobe-phile/etc.

 

[Aseth]

I love the tooltips. (Including the one spoiled on Twitter that said "DO NOT DO THIS.")

 

[Zanza]

Nice.

 

[Luzahn]

And my ability to argue with people in thousands kms around me is transcedent. It's an ability only mages and saints have.
Oh wait, it's kind of 21st century here...

I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say here, but if I'm on the right track, I think that the issue is the psionics in Stellaris aren't just your classic "Sufficiently Advanced Techology." In-universe, we're dealing with something "irrational," truly outside of scientific understanding. (Of course, it's hard to wrap our heads around this, because reality doesn't *have* anything outside of scientific understanting.) Something like that, in fiction, can be studied empirically, but only if you accept the fundamental irrationality of the basic premise, and I think that leap of accepting an irrational premise is, in game terms, "spirituality."

 

[Grand Historian]

I mean we see world religions analyzing aspects of their faith empirically; they're just measuring things which don't exist in the first place.

Charming.

 

[balmung60]

Without a fleshed out religion system we are dealing with a lot of abstractions. However, it's a pretty common trope that robots can't into psionics because they lack the whole, you know, soul thing.

Feh, organics have the same problem and they get to do it. /fanatic materialist

Even in the current version Psi Jump drive has a considerably higher chance of attracting the Unbidden than regular Jump drive.

Actually, it has the same chance. What makes the Unbidden all but certain is having both.

 

[Heretic Saint]

40K navigators are really bad example. Guild was based on spiritual achievement - Norma Cenva actually unlocked her psi potential being tortured, not by R&D project.

That sounds like a reference to a Black Library novel -- given the frequent contradictions to GW studio material, I've chosen to stay away from them and instead stick to what Games Workshop themselves wrote about the subject.

I admit that 40k may have been a bad example in general, though, as the setting does not have a canon policy, resulting in a lot of conflicting statements and an "it's true if you want it to be" attitude, which isn't very helpful for a debate on setting details.

Psykers have always been spiritual. From the old ones to the Eldar, to Imperial Truth era Psykers. The warp LITERALLY feeds off of the soul and emotions. They weren't religious, but they WERE spiritualists.

My point is that the empire they belong to doesn't have to be Spiritual, as will be the case in Stellaris. Non-spiritual empires may still have spiritual Pops, yet they'll never have a chance to awaken any latent psionic potential. Until they elect a Pope -- apparently ONLY THEN will your people realize they can bend forks with their minds, and they will do so practically overnight.

Solid indisputable references to the Emperor (and others) reincarnating for thousands of years before the events of the games and tabletop.

Technically, nothing is indisputable, as anything we know is - as per the very writers of this material - twisted by historical revisionism, propaganda, and subjective perspective.

In retrospect, I must admit that the cosmology I've formed by comparing codices and reading between the lines is still just one interpretation of who knows how many, and other people may come to different conclusions. Personally, I can't see how the setting could function in your theory, but that is merely because we're subscribing to different sources that are all equally correct (or not). For example, I also don't accept the new novels' take on this supposed "Imperial Truth", as it contradicts what the setting's original authors wrote in the Index Astartes.

As such, we may lack a common ground here. It may be more interesting (read: constructive) to discuss franchises that actually have a canon.

There is strong evidence that souls are persistent, particularly ones that are very powerful like the Emperor and Primarchs.

This is mentioned in Codex Eldar: "If an Eldar's spirit is not captured by his waystone, it is sucked into the nightmarish depths of the Warp. To a Human, such a fate means nothing, for virtually no Human mind is strong enough to retain a sense of consciousness after death - the psychic energy of the Human mind being paltry compared to that of an Eldar."

It doesn't really have anything to do with the subject at hand, though. I'm not disputing the existence of these souls, I'm saying they have nothing to do with spirituality when everyone has them regardless of ethos.

 

[aono]

I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say here

I'm trying to say that "transcedence" is subjective, so you can't actually make a difference here.

In-universe, we're dealing with something "irrational," truly outside of scientific understanding.

I'm sorry, what do you mean by "irrational"? Warp in WH40K is totally irrational, but it can be studied empirically. It's reality, given locals in their senses, and you can be as materialistic as you want - so is materialized daemon, who, you know, rampaging through streets.
That's why it's quite possible to use tech to fly Warp, psykers are just better.
Also we're speaking about game where psi insights gives you technology options for research. Psykers enter the Shroud, met something, then scientists research it. So it definitly isn't "truly outside of scientific understanding".

That sounds like a reference to a Black Library novel -- given the frequent contradictions to GW studio material, I've chosen to stay away from them and instead stick to what Games Workshop themselves wrote about the subject.

OUCH. Sorry. Dune Navigators, of course.

My point is that the empire they belong to doesn't have to be Spiritual, as will be the case in Stellaris.

Actually I'd say even more. Every human being but pariah gene carriers have psy potential, so you can be absolutely atheistic, materialistic, corrupt (non-chaos corrupt but as politics are) and everything else and get your awakening. That's why AAT and Arbitres works so hard to find any little glimpses of psy ability.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Even in the current version Psi Jump drive has a considerably higher chance of attracting the Unbidden than regular Jump drive.

That was actually debunked in a thread a little while ago- the Psi Jump Drive has an equal chance of triggering the Unbidden as the normal one. It's just Jump Drives that attract the Unbidden, not psionics.

 

[ECFOX]

Wiz, will ascension perks be ethos/ethic specific or will we be able to choose which ascension perks no matter our ethics.

 

[Luzahn]

I'm sorry, what do you mean by "irrational"? Warp in WH40K is totally irrational, but it can be studied empirically. It's reality, given locals in their senses, and you can be as materialistic as you want - so is materialized daemon, who, you know, rampaging through streets.
That's why it's quite possible to use tech to fly Warp, psykers are just better.
Also we're speaking about game where psi insights gives you technology options for research. Psykers enter the Shroud, met something, then scientists research it. So it definitly isn't "truly outside of scientific understanding".

Regarding the tech, I guess my thinking is that it represents something like a wizard researching new spells or the mechanics of magic. There's space for discovery and empiricism, but within a system with different physical laws than conventional reality or understanding.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Have these changes affected the Extradimentional Invaders Crisis in any way?

 

[Esurnir]

It would be fun if there was an alternative version of the text for the unbidden if you unlocked the shroud… something like.

"YOU… I remember you…"

 

[Arkangilos]

My point is that the empire they belong to doesn't have to be Spiritual, as will be the case in Stellaris. Non-spiritual empires may still have spiritual Pops, yet they'll never have a chance to awaken any latent psionic potential.

The thing is that you can have a spiritual empire that does not have the religious governments. The whole thing behind spiritualism in this game (as pointed out by myself and various others) is the focus on the non-physical. By this game's standard, Materialism is the idea that everything that exists in the material world is all that exists, and that's the only thing your own government is going to support (since it's government ethos, not pop ethos. That means the official stance of the government is, "there is no such thing as anything that we cannot physically hold."

On the other hand spiritualism (as government ethos) is that your governments official stance is, "there is something greater that is out there, our government is looking into it."


The Galactic Republic is essentially a federation in this game, and so the Jedi Order would be a spiritualist government within the federation.

 

[Arkangilos]

Actually I'd say even more. Every human being but pariah gene carriers have psy potential, so you can be absolutely atheistic, materialistic, corrupt (non-chaos corrupt but as politics are) and everything else and get your awakening. That's why AAT and Arbitres works so hard to find any little glimpses of psy ability.

No, you can't. Even an atheist state can be spiritual, as has been pointed out Spiritualism in this game is the idea that there is something more than *this* physical universe.

Which actually makes me wish that when the Unbidden crisis occurs, there would be a shift towards spiritualism, which could open up doors to a whole host of new challenges as you attempt to maintain status quo, and potentially force the governments to adapt a spiritualist outlook.

 

[Grand Historian]

Technically, nothing is indisputable, as anything we know is - as per the very writers of this material - twisted by historical revisionism, propaganda, and subjective perspective.

In retrospect, I must admit that the cosmology I've formed by comparing codices and reading between the lines is still just one interpretation of who knows how many, and other people may come to different conclusions. Personally, I can't see how the setting could function in your theory, but that is merely because we're subscribing to different sources that are all equally correct (or not). For example, I also don't accept the new novels' take on this supposed "Imperial Truth", as it contradicts what the setting's original authors wrote in the Index Astartes.

I'm trying to say that "transcedence" is subjective, so you can't actually make a difference here.

The Transistor was easier to get a solid mythos out of than what this is turning out to be.

 

[Heretic Saint]

I'm sorry, what do you mean by "irrational"? Warp in WH40K is totally irrational, but it can be studied empirically.

Indeed. Codex WH mentioned a scanner to detect psychic residue, for use by Inquisitors to hunt fugitive witches. Likewise, Sororitas purity control squads take DNA samples to look for the psyker gene, and the Navigator Houses outright utilize breeding programs to maintain their unique abilities.

OUCH. Sorry. Dune Navigators, of course.

Ahh ... okay, there I may be a bit out of my depth. Then again, some R&D projects may involve torture. The CIA's MKUltra or Project Stargate come to mind, as far as unlocking paranormal activities is concerned. Recently referenced in Stranger Things.

Ultimately, I suppose I'm not even arguing for a disconnect between individual spirituality and psionics when it comes to the pop, as I've already mentioned the relevance of mental fortitude. But I do argue that it doesn't matter in the slightest what Ethos your government holds.

I mean, on the flipside, nobody would argue that Spiritualist empires cannot do materialist research just because of their Ethos, right? We just assume they have scientists who are more materialistic than the average citizen, like Galileo and his "heresy".

Actually I'd say even more. Every human being but pariah gene carriers have psy potential, so you can be absolutely atheistic, materialistic, corrupt (non-chaos corrupt but as politics are) and everything else and get your awakening. That's why AAT and Arbitres works so hard to find any little glimpses of psy ability.

Indeed; there was a passage in the 6E rulebook about this "deadly evolution" and how more and more psykers are being born as humanity's latent potential awakens.

Of course, one could put that down to the Spiritualist Ethos of the M42 Imperium, but ... again, psykers have been around before this empire adopted it. Which goes in line with my argument that Spiritualist empires may well deserve an advantage -- just not exclusivity on everything.

The Transistor was easier to get a solid mythos out of than what this is turning out to be.

 

[Luzahn]

No, you can't. Even an atheist state can be spiritual, as has been pointed out Spiritualism in this game is the idea that there is something more than *this* physical universe.

Which actually makes me wish that when the Unbidden crisis occurs, there would be a shift towards spiritualism, which could open up doors to a whole host of new challenges as you attempt to maintain status quo, and potentially force the governments to adapt a spiritualist outlook.

That'd be a nice touch. Though maybe a bit late for any meaningful ethics shift before you're eaten by demons. =P

Although I'm still liking the idea of being stubborn Space-Dwarves and just matching all the weird space magic with a whole bunch of mundane guns.

 

[aono]

The thing is that you can have a spiritual empire that does not have the religious governments.

No. Well, you can be, let's say, Plutocratic Oligarchy when you have spiritual ethos, it's, you know, about materialistic gains, cash, minerals and industry, nothing about transcedence or another universes. It just means your "spirituality" isn't present on your politics.
When you're trying to show what spiritualism in-game is, you should point things that actually DEMANDS spiritualism, not is possible when you have spiritualism or not.

Even an atheist state can be spiritual, as has been pointed out Spiritualism in this game is the idea that there is something more than *this* physical universe.

Human in Warhammer can believe it's nothing beyond this physical universe AND be awakened as psyker. I trying to point it's bad example. In Warhammer Warp IS empirical state of being, with souls and daemons, it actually exists and is (was) a subject of scientific research - well, until humans had science. Damn, Mechanicus do it even now.
I just can't see why, actually, soul can't be a subject of scientific research. Ghostbusters are dealing with ghosts and another universes, so do Sliders - are you trying to say they're spiritual in ethos understanding?

 

[Zarpaulus]

That was actually debunked in a thread a little while ago- the Psi Jump Drive has an equal chance of triggering the Unbidden as the normal one. It's just Jump Drives that attract the Unbidden, not psionics.

Well, last time I checked the wiki it said there was a shorter countdown for Psi Jump Drive