Tinto Flavour #18 - 16th of May 2025

[Soulburger]

One minor suggestion for the UI art: overlap the estate icon. Right now it is a symbol of the estate (crown, castle, etc) on top of a triangle. At first glance I thought the bottom part of the triangle was in the foreground with the rest of the symbol projecting out of the triangle. Which looks really good for the horizontally oriented symbols (crown, castle) and makes it pop out. That would make it a more integrated image and not feel disconnected. Three of the symbols already have a good horizontal appeal. The burgers symbol could be shortened vertically and made fatter to follow the same aesthetic. The only one that doesn’t naturally fit would be the clergy symbol since it naturally fits the triangle profile. I still think it would look fine...maybe tilt the hands slightly forward to generate the same forward projection as the other icons.

It's a minor detail but throwing my 2 duckets out there.

 

[Raven100]

Hello devs will there be a way to play as Hindu Bengal because the Ganesha rebellion nearly succeeded. If not only for the help of Ibhrahim Lodi Bengal would be a Hindu Raj

 

[Raven100]

Is there a way for the Delhi Sultans to convert to Jainism or Buddhism at will (ofcourse with huge stability and legitimacy loss and ulema estate rebellion)

For Mughals under Akbar is it possible to establish Din-e-Ilahi which was syncretic of various faiths leading to no conversion and very high tolerance of heathens

 

[king.kaiser7]

What is Ulama and Umara? Generally, I think this "flavor" localisation type will be problematic if not careful. I am assuming it is some Indian cast? (maybe?) Am I correct in assuming there will be a tooltip when hovering to ensure players can understand?

EDIT: I'm not sure why I am being downvoted. Googling Umara or Ulama doesn't lead to any meaningful results (unless Ulama is a misspelling of Ulema). Feel free to downvote, but at least explain what it means.

Ulema/Ulama (علماء) refers to Islamic scholars, philosophers and lawyers, they interpret the sharia and today maintain moral/civil laws such as marriage laws. In the game it’s probably flavour text for Muslim clergy.

Umara (أمراء) refers to Amirs, basically the administration of an Islamic realm, such as governors, rulers and other political figures. In the game it’s probably flavour text for Muslim nobles.

They don’t refer to any Indian/Hindu things, but are tied to Islam. These estates exists in EU4 too, along with the Dhimmi (protected people) that refer to non-Muslims that are given the right to practice their religion and build religious buildings in a Muslim realm, historically given to Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus.

 

[Lys91]

Ulema/Ulama (علماء) refers to Islamic scholars, philosophers and lawyers, they interpret the sharia and today maintain moral/civil laws such as marriage laws. In the game it’s probably flavour text for Muslim clergy.

Umara (أمراء) refers to Amirs, basically the administration of an Islamic realm, such as governors, rulers and other political figures. In the game it’s probably flavour text for Muslim nobles.

They don’t refer to any Indian/Hindu things, but are tied to Islam. These estates exists in EU4 too, along with the Dhimmi (protected people) that refer to non-Muslims that are given the right to practice their religion and build religious buildings in a Muslim realm, historically given to Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus.

Thank you!

 

[akshitgaur1239]

Hey @Pavia, do any of the Himalayan kingdoms have flavour? Garhwal, Kumaon, Gorkha, Khas Malla, etc.?

 

[Rajputs]

The map of the subcontinent shows the Jethwas only controlling Bhanvad while the Chudasamas have control of what would later become Porbandar. This needs to be changed as the Jethwas controlled the Porbandar region with historical bases in Shrinagar, Chhaya and Ranpar. While Chudasama were quite powerful, it wasn't a one sided affair with the ancient town of Dhank and Somnath being areas that were constantly fought over. Also while the Kutchis had invaded and sacked the Jethwa capital Ghuli in the early 1300s, the Jethwas remained in control of Hala (Jamnagar) until the establishment of Nawanagar by Jam Rawal in the early 1500s.

 

[gLo1NN]

It seems that in eu 4 we will experience how Delhi has turned into a small state.

 

[Will Steel]

View attachment 1300957

So anyone familiar with Indian history, what's the story here? Why is it so divided and also independent from Delhi when the Deccan was conquered. I remember from a game as Kalinga in Imperator that the area was kind of Jungly and tribal and sort of a buffer region between myself and the Maurya. Is that just it that its sort of a hard to conquer interior region?

Pretty much.

This land between Orissa (at the eastern coast) and Malwa (in the central India area) was (and to an extent still is) a heavily forested area with partially rugged terrain, mostly populated by rather well organized, fortified, heavily populated confederations of tribes, with cultures a bit different from the mainstream Indo-Aryan, Dravidian or Himalayan ones.

For much of history Indian kings and emperors saw little economic value in the place when compared to the heavy, heavy cost of having to fight, garrison and build through a rather dense, rainy jungle. Why would you turn your army there when there are much easier, wealthier places to conquer all around.

Besides, those tribal confederations weren't unfriendly - they allied with local kingdoms nearby and served in armies as mercenaries all the time.

Places around that area like Malwa (Avanti in ancient eras and Imperator) and Orissa (Kalinga in ancient eras and Imperator) were your usual fully-urbanized kingdoms, and hence always got conquered by larger Indian empires and turned into provinces administered by governors (or feudal vassal states or whatever). Meanwhile that tribal region was usually left to its own. The empires would skirt around them/surround them and turn them into tributaries... or just leave them be, and go on with their warmongering and trading.

Sometimes, one of those tribal kingdoms near the periphery would urbanize and become a mainstream state and expand out to become large, as happened with Gondwana kingdom within EU game timeline, or the attempted statehood by the Bhil confederation elsewhere. The modern day area of Chhattisgarh (literally means "thirty-six castles") is right in there - it was part of that tribal area in the ancient era, and over a long period of time most of it became another mainstream settled region like any other part of India.

---

Mauryans in the 2nd century BC were the first empire who actually conquered the area, because Mauryans were unique in Indian history in that they ran a heavily centralized bureaucratic empire and liked to annex and directly control everything. Bad terrain or no, they decided to conquer Kalinga kingdom and the nearby tribals anyway. And it took such a massive toll and bloodshed to go through and finally win, that the previously maniacal raging tyrant emperor (who rose to power fighting and executing his brothers in a civil war for the Indian throne) turned into a haunted PTSD-ridden enlightened Buddhist pacifist and a saint figure in Indian history lol. (you can play him in Imperator, look up Ashoka)

Every Indian empire after them, from antiquity to the gunpowder era (Gupta and Pushyabhuti of the late antiquity, Pala and Pratihara of the early medieval age, Delhi Sultanate and Suri Empire of the high and late medieval age) all mostly turned the tribal confederations into autonomous tributaries/vassals/allies or just left them be. Delhi Sultanate just skirted around them and went on to conquer the southern half of India for a time.

Mughals in 16th and 17th century were, after Mauryans 1600+ years earlier, the second empire to actually disrupt their autonomy. Both because they wanted tax and tribute, and because those tribes kept helping and allying with nearby kingdoms that Mughals were fighting and gobbling up as provinces. And just like Mauryans they gradually won at a very heavy cost, but eventually just did what everyone else had done earlier and let them be autonomous tributaries and left them on their own.

Marathas who replaced the Mughals in most of India seemingly kept that system up for a time (extremely sparse records), although it is known that they did sometimes use tribal territory to launch devastating raids in nearby remnant Mughal provinces. After Maratha Empire - essentially the final empire in Indian history - began to collapse in late 18th century and its provinces splintered into separate kingdoms, one of them - the Nagpur kingdom, maintained partial autonomous tribute on the tribes.

...Then the British arrived, and British'd all over the place. You can pretty much guess how it went. (hint: massive tribal revolts every 3-5 years for the next 150 years or so)

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Pretty much.

This land between Orissa (at the eastern coast) and Malwa (in the central India area) was (and to an extent still is) a heavily forested area with partially rugged terrain, mostly populated by rather well organized, fortified, heavily populated confederations of tribes, with cultures a bit different from the mainstream Indo-Aryan, Dravidian or Himalayan ones.

For much of history Indian kings and emperors saw little economic value in the place when compared to the heavy, heavy cost of having to fight, garrison and build through a rather dense, rainy jungle. Why would you turn your army there when there are much easier, wealthier places to conquer all around.

Besides, those tribal confederations weren't unfriendly - they allied with local kingdoms nearby and served in armies as mercenaries all the time.

Places around that area like Malwa (Avanti in ancient eras and Imperator) and Orissa (Kalinga in ancient eras and Imperator) were your usual fully-urbanized kingdoms, and hence always got conquered by larger Indian empires and turned into provinces administered by governors (or feudal vassal states or whatever). Meanwhile that tribal region was usually left to its own. The empires would skirt around them/surround them and turn them into tributaries... or just leave them be, and go on with their warmongering and trading.

Sometimes, one of those tribal kingdoms near the periphery would urbanize and become a mainstream state and expand out to become large, as happened with Gondwana kingdom within EU game timeline, or the attempted statehood by the Bhil confederation elsewhere. The modern day area of Chhattisgarh (literally means "thirty-six castles") is right in there - it was part of that tribal area in the ancient era, and over a long period of time most of it became another mainstream settled region like any other part of India.

---

Mauryans in the 2nd century BC were the first empire who actually conquered the area, because Mauryans were unique in Indian history in that they ran a heavily centralized bureaucratic empire and liked to annex and directly control everything. Bad terrain or no, they decided to conquer Kalinga kingdom and the nearby tribals anyway. And it took such a massive toll and bloodshed to go through and finally win, that the previously maniacal raging tyrant emperor (who rose to power fighting and executing his brothers in a civil war for the Indian throne) turned into a haunted PTSD-ridden enlightened Buddhist pacifist and a saint figure in Indian history lol. (you can play him in Imperator, look up Ashoka)

Every Indian empire after them, from antiquity to the gunpowder era (Gupta and Pushyabhuti of the late antiquity, Pala and Pratihara of the early medieval age, Delhi Sultanate and Suri Empire of the high and late medieval age) all mostly turned the tribal confederations into autonomous tributaries/vassals/allies or just left them be. Delhi Sultanate just skirted around them and went on to conquer the southern half of India for a time.

Mughals in 16th and 17th century were, after Mauryans 1600+ years earlier, the second empire to actually disrupt their autonomy. Both because they wanted tax and tribute, and because those tribes kept helping and allying with nearby kingdoms that Mughals were fighting and gobbling up as provinces. And just like Mauryans they gradually won at a very heavy cost, but eventually just did what everyone else had done earlier and let them be autonomous tributaries and left them on their own.

Marathas who replaced the Mughals in most of India seemingly kept that system up for a time (extremely sparse records), although it is known that they did sometimes use tribal territory to launch devastating raids in nearby remnant Mughal provinces. After Maratha Empire - essentially the final empire in Indian history - began to collapse in late 18th century and its provinces splintered into separate kingdoms, one of them - the Nagpur kingdom, maintained partial autonomous tribute on the tribes.

...Then the British arrived, and British'd all over the place. You can pretty much guess how it went. (hint: massive tribal revolts every 3-5 years for the next 150 years or so)

I see, thank you. Very interesting.

 

[Bishweshwar]

37 admin skill seems a bit high for a guy known as the "Mad Sultan" for his disastrous policies. I'd say make it a bit lower.

 

[Will Steel]

37 admin skill seems a bit high for a guy known as the "Mad Sultan" for his disastrous policies. I'd say make it a bit lower.

Well in history, he wasn't the "dysfunctional and incompetent" type of insane, he was the "overly eccentric" type of insane.

For some time he actually ran his empire really well (he was known for being equal parts extremely generous and kind, and very cruel and bloodthirsty, and switched between both very quickly and often), and he was personally a well-educated scholar and a polyglot, as well as a famous general as a prince... until his descent into madness and daily stream of endless 'brilliant' ideas fried his brain.

1337 start is right in the middle of his reign, when he really was insane, but still held all the power.