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Tinto Flavour #21 - 26th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Mondays (some), Tuesdays & Fridays in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will take a look at the two most powerful Merchant Republics of Europe, Venice and Genoa!


Let’s start taking a look at Venice:

The Most Serene Republic of Venice is the most important and powerful of the merchant republics in the Mediterranean Sea. It controls important trade ports and islands in the Eastern Mediterranean, which form the Stado do Mar, and many inland territories in the North of Italy, which form the Domini di Terraferma.

Nonetheless, the lagoon city cannot lower its guard, as new threats arise around it. In the East, the once great Byzantine Empire will not easily forget the Fourth Crusade and the Venetian involvement in it. In the West, the Superb Republic of Genoa and the Crown of Aragon are continuing to expand their influence, conquering more territory and dominating trade routes. And at last, the Signoria of Verona have grown to be a noticeable threat to the Domini di Terraferma.

What will the future hold for the Most Serene Republic? Will it fall under the pressure of its enemies, or will it rise to the top and become the indisputable ruler of the Mare Nostrum?
Click to expand...

Venice Country Selection.png

The 3 subjects of Venice are Candia, Ragusa, and Trieste. As usual, take any UI, 2D and 3D art as WIP.

Venice1.png

Venice2.png

As you may have seen in one of my forum posts or Reddit, Venice is now an island! Here you also have the full extension of its Stado de Mar, with all its subjects (which, at the highest zoom levels, have their name replaced by that of the overlord, as it happens here with Candia).​

Venice is a very unique Republic, which starts with some unique reforms and privileges at the start of the game:
Venice Reform Concil of Forty.png

Venice Reform Council of Ten.png


Venice Privilege Zonta.png

Venice Privilege Avogadoria do Comun.png

Venice Privilege Libro dOro.png

Venice Privilege Libro d'Argento.png

It also hosts some works of art, some of them sacked from Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade:
Venice Works of Art.png

Here is a selection of the advances available for Venice:
Venice Advance Arsenal.png

Venice Building Arsenal.png

Venice Advance Thalassocracy.png

Venice Advance Stato do Mar.png

Venice Advance Venetian Palaces.png

Venice Building Venetian Palaces.png

Venice Advance Magistrato alla Sanita.png

Venice Advance Heavy Naval Tactics.png

And a few of its flavour events:
Venice Event Piazza San Marco.png

Venice Building Piazza San Marco.png


Event Promissione Ducale.png

Venice Reform Promissione Ducale.png


Venice Event Tizziano.png


Let’s now take a look at Genoa:

The city of Genoa stands out as the most important commercial port in the Western Mediterranean, its Republic having expanded its influence overseas through trade and war.

After defeating the Republic of Pisa, it gained the island of Corsica and established a foothold in Sardinia. However, this might have been a poisonous gift, as it may now face not only the opposition of its inhabitants, but also that of King Pere IV the Ceremonious de Barcelona, self-proclaimed sovereign of both islands.

Another challenge may arise from the east, as a network of possessions has created the conditions for a commercial dominance over the Black Sea, centered around the port of Kaffa; although dangerous neighbors such as Venice, Byzantium, or the Golden Horde might be a threat.

Relying on our numerous Fondaco and wealthy bankers, will Genoa overcome these challenges?
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Genoa Country Selection.png



Genoa1.png

Genoa2.png

The Genoese ‘mainlad’, plus its Mediterranean possessions.​

Genoa also starts with a couple of unique reforms:
Genoa Refomr Diarchy Republic.png

Genoa Reform compagna Comunis.png

Since we’re not able to have two or more rulers for a country in the game, we’re portraying the Genoese Diarchy by having Galeotto Spinola and Raffaello Doria present as characters at start, and the bonuses you see in the reform.​

Genoa also starts with some Works of Art:
Genoa Works of Art.png

It also has a quite important unique building:
Genoa Building Fondaco.png

And here you have some of the unique advances:
Genoa Advance Banking Traditions.png

Genoa Advance Slave Galleys.png

Genoa Building Slave Barracks.png

Genoa Advance Genoese Galley.png

Genoa Unit Genoese Galley.png

Genoa Advance Genoese Crossbowmen.png

Genoa Advance 28 Alberghi.png

Genoa Reform 28 Alberghi.png

Genoa Advance The Age of the Genoese.png

Here you have some of the flavour events of Genoa:
Genoa Event Merchant Republic.png

Genoa Event Merchant Republic2.png

Genoa Event Merchant Republic3.png

Genoa Event Merchant Republic4.png


Genoa Event Monaco.png

Genoa Building Rock of Monaco.png


Genoa Event Andrea Doria.png

Event Doge Andrea Doria.png

Genoa Reform Great and Minor Councils.png

An old EU4 friend, coming back in a revisited form!​

Oh, and last, but not least, and related to the Byzantine content that we’ll take a look at on Friday, both countries have some unique foreign buildings in Constantinople:
Venice Building Venetian Quarter.png

Genoa Building Galata.png

… And much more, but that’s all for today! And tomorrow, there will be a Tinto Flavour devoted to Serbia and Georgia!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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Pavía said:
Sorry about the delay, but today has been for a good reason: With a draft document of 42 pages-long, this is one of the longest Tinto Flavour up to date, and I've also had to restructure it a bit, as I've hit the maximum number of screenshots per post allowed in the forum (and we're just showing a fraction of the flavour content for these countries, lol).
Click to expand...
New side project: we need a higher capacity forum to cope with EUV. Please, take into account that whatever screenshot limit you chose now will become our expectation for EUVI flavour level.
 
  • 4Haha
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Pavía said:
A summary:
  • Both Venice and Genoa have tons of setup and structural advantages to get the 'capacities' you need to profit from trade (Trade Capacity, Trade Advantage, Maritime Presence, etc).
  • Thus, they start in a very good position to expand their initial trade network, and create very profitable trading between the Eastern Mediterranean/Black Sea markets, and the Western European ones, which demand lots of goods.
  • By the profit they get from these trades, and the early edge they have over the Capital Economy SV, they have a good incentive to not only keep expanding their trade profit, but also to reinvest the earnings into a 'Proto-Industrial' economy, compared to a more 'Traditional' or RGO-based economy.
Click to expand...

Please do allow Venice (and Florence) to build Fondaco! That agreement wasn't unique to Genoa and it is the basis of overseas trade for Venice (and Florence) also, particularly in 15th and 16th centuries which was the apex of Venetian trade. I would also even suggest an Advance for Venice further to allow their Fondaco to act as bases for espionage as they frequently used their diplomats, merchants and doctors in other countries in their consulates as informants and spies. Even with vast archival documents of Ottomans within Istanbul, Venetian archives with reports from their consulates and Fondaco remain one of the most important resources for information about Ottoman Empire even today.
 
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I talked about this in Carpathia and Balkans but it's regarding Ragusa and Dalmatia so it makes sense to post it here:
1. What is the common language in Ragusa (it used to be Italian but it should be Galo-Italic)
2. If the the court language in Venice is Galo-Italic why is in Ragusa just Italian, I mean it could pass but it makes sense to have it the same as its overlord.
3. If you see the Dalmatian coast on a map you'll see a bunch of islands and coves, I know it can't be bright green natural coast but it really shouldn't be black.
4. A bit of a personal issue but the greyish color of Ragusa kinda makes it low visible in 2D.
 
Not that I am ungrateful for the amount of events shown here, far form it but could you please tell us are there events pertaining to Genoese-Venetian Rivalry, and if there are could you tell/show us an example.
 
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Pavía said:
Oof, the origin of Christopher Columbus, I'm not willing to get into that rabbit hole... We're following here the 100% accurate historical data, so there's an event in which Columbus offers his services to Portugal, and in case of being rejected (which is the historical, AI-default option), then he goes to Castile/Spain.
Click to expand...
The life of Columbus is pretty well reconstructed and he's unquestionably from Genoa. No serious historian says otherwise
 
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Pavía said:
A summary:
  • Both Venice and Genoa have tons of setup and structural advantages to get the 'capacities' you need to profit from trade (Trade Capacity, Trade Advantage, Maritime Presence, etc).
  • Thus, they start in a very good position to expand their initial trade network, and create very profitable trading between the Eastern Mediterranean/Black Sea markets, and the Western European ones, which demand lots of goods.
  • By the profit they get from these trades, and the early edge they have over the Capital Economy SV, they have a good incentive to not only keep expanding their trade profit, but also to reinvest the earnings into a 'Proto-Industrial' economy, compared to a more 'Traditional' or RGO-based economy.
Click to expand...
Does this mean an European player would prefer them to survive to ease commodity supplies rather than annex them? At least until their countries mature comertial and economically.

Do Bizantium or the Ottomans have the same worldview or is it more beneficial for them to remove the republics outposts?
 
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Pavía said:
This is what you can see at the start with a Mediterranean Christian country (we considered that the knowledge was kind of common by the mid 14th century, as the 'Catalan Atlas' and other portulans show:
View attachment 1306889
As usual, this isn't final, neither the map itself, nor the terra incognita background.
Click to expand...

Pavia but what about the journey of Benedict of Poland & Giovanni da Pian del Carpine ? The travelled to Mongolian Empire's capital decades before Marco Polo 1245–1247 through Poland -> Ruthenia -> Pontic Steppe -> Central Asia. There is a history video about this on YT, in Polish but it shows the path of the journey.

Their work is known as "Ystoria Mongalorum quos nos Tartaros appellamus" ("History of the Mongols, which we call Tartars") written in 1240s it is the oldest European account of the Mongols.

Tbh, it was more significant journey than of Marco Polo's but it's not as much famous.
PS: Paradox add Duchy of Gniewkowo in Poland, don't care if it was small, add it.

Starting Maps(1).png
 
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Pavía said:
We already have them; it just takes a lot of time to have a comprehensive list of dialect names in-game:
View attachment 1306936
Click to expand...
Can you guys rename Venetian to Venetan? Venetian is the dialect spoken in Venice itself, Venetan is the language spoken in all of Veneto (and other areas too after colonization)
Im aware that Wikipedia mentiones Venetian first but that's an error imported from Italians themselves who often mention "Veneziano" instead of "Veneto" even when the speaker is from another city, like Verona
 
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Hello, I'm a very fan about Venice.
In the real life, at this period, in 1336 Venice is at war with Verone. And in 1339 they gain some great territorial on Verone. How is it in the game ? Is Venice starting at war like in the historical life ?
 
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Since we’re not able to have two or more rulers for a country in the game
Click to expand...

For now, or is it absolutely impossible? I'm not asking whether you plan to adding it, but rather if theoretically the game code could support it in the future.

we’re portraying the Genoese Diarchy by having Galeotto Spinola and Raffaello Doria present as characters at start, and the bonuses you see in the reform.
Click to expand...

Do the dynasties switch places? If a Spinola dies, does the Doria character rise to its place (and then a new Spinola appears as a cabinet member etc)?
 
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Pavía said:
Oof, the origin of Christopher Columbus, I'm not willing to get into that rabbit hole... We're following here the 100% accurate historical data, so there's an event in which Columbus offers his services to Portugal, and in case of being rejected (which is the historical, AI-default option), then he goes to Castile/Spain.
Click to expand...

He should be a Valencian Jew!
 
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Any preview of venetian-genoese ports in the black sea? There is plenty of locs were they could use a building to reflect their presence.

Why is Venice only tier 1? Also, could you consider changing Venice's colour?
 
Ragusa as a subject of Venice should be limited to either Tributary status (best option), as a forced member of a trade league, or as a directly owned province with 0-20 control. Ragusa had a borderline fascist hatred of Venice owing to the attack on the city in the 4th Crusade, and their religious iconography owes to St. Blaise descending from heaven to drive off a Venetian fleet. Post 1358 Treaty of Zadar they're a vassal of Hungary.

They shouldn't be a vassal of Venice early on as it would depict Ragusa actively engaging in hostilities. Their real-world army was a max size of 500 men, a few conscripted merchant marines, and some diplomats with quick access to the Pope. They rose in the 1500s to handle some 30-50% of Mediterranean trade competing against Venice due to some shenanigans in which they got duty-free access to the Ottoman Empire and purchased extensive silver mining rights from Serbia/Bosnia. Though, they did establish trading colonies from the Adriatic out to as far as Yemen. This is hard to model as a one-province minor.

A final comment would be the complex nature of military access and provinces in the Mediterranean in this period. Genoa had a small trading colony outside Constantinople (Galata) and Ragusa/Venice would have other smaller colonies. Previously in EU4 this was depicted through territory ownership and an establish outpost button. This should instead be a diplomatic arrangement between a trade city (tributary) and a suzerain (tribute for market access/buffs) or a trade republic (independent) and a sovereign state for military/port access and buffs to both sides. This avoids the territory complexity problem and more accurately represents a tall small trading republic like Ragusa or Netherlands.
 
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Also love the sea tile highlights :)

How does control work for the Egean and Black Sea possessions of either? Or is control irrelevant to trade?

Pavía said:
Columbus offers his services to Portugal, and in case of being rejected (which is the historical, AI-default option), then he goes to Castile/Spain.
Click to expand...
Would a player Portugal ever take that option?
 
Pavía said:
A summary:
  • Both Venice and Genoa have tons of setup and structural advantages to get the 'capacities' you need to profit from trade (Trade Capacity, Trade Advantage, Maritime Presence, etc).
  • Thus, they start in a very good position to expand their initial trade network, and create very profitable trading between the Eastern Mediterranean/Black Sea markets, and the Western European ones, which demand lots of goods.
  • By the profit they get from these trades, and the early edge they have over the Capital Economy SV, they have a good incentive to not only keep expanding their trade profit, but also to reinvest the earnings into a 'Proto-Industrial' economy, compared to a more 'Traditional' or RGO-based economy.
Click to expand...
Is the trade system able to simulate flow of goods from China to Western Europe? I'm interested in knowing if say, Genoa can be the middle man to buy goods from Asia cheap and sell them to Western Europe? Will Genoa consume too much of the goods and not supplying anything to Europe? Given how volatile trade is (it refreshes every month), I wonder if Europe can reliably secure Asian spice. After all, the rise of Ottomans is what drove the Europeans to seek another trade route to Asia.
 
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Ulpia Batavorum said:
Why aren't the bonuses of the Venetian arsenal limited to galleys?
Click to expand...

Because the Venetian arsenal built all kinds of ships, later on in life it was building line ships, beyond the end of venice it was producing some of the large standardised ships of the line typical to france. The arsenal also produced bronze guns as well as various other things necessary for maritime supplies

I'm not sure the bonuses are the same but this was shared earlier in a TT for what the building might look like, I'm not sure if its been adjusted since then

1748272905643.png


This is from Tinto Talk 24
 
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