Tinto Flavour #22 - 27th of May 2025

[EneaBako]

Thank you for putting the White Angel in as a work of art, genuinely. Now, as for the Disaster shown here, once the country breaks does it look like shown on this map?
View attachment 1307524
And if so, are the successor states historical?

You see i want to call out an issue here, this map you posted is completly fake. It is not from:
Any peer-reviewed historical atlas.
Lacks proper source citations, borders, or dated verification.
Very likely made by a Serbian nationalist amateur historian (e.g. from nationalist forums like Srbin.info or similar). have seen it before in those forums.
It inflates the power and structure of post-Dushan Serbia, showing overly centralized control and dozens of named “lords” who never ruled fully independent realms like modern vassals.
It completely erases the autonomy of Albanian nobles (Balshaj Dukagjini), the Bosnian Kingdom, and Montenegrin local rule.
After Dushans death in 1355, we know from numerous academic sources including John Fine’s The Late Medieval Balkans that the Serbian Empire fragmented quickly. Nobles gained de facto independence in areas like Zeta and Northern Albania and even mainland Serbia.

This is not about breaking Serbia as a country its about representing the reality that Dushan death marked the collapse of central authority. The Crown weakened, vassals stopped paying tribute, and many acted independently. Ignoring that reality because it’s ‘too complex’ or because it threatens someones modern nationalist pride shouldn’t be a reason to prevent historical gameplay.
I recommend for the mods to aim for balance but also for inclusiveness. Players from Albania, Montenegro, Bosnia, and even fragmented Serbian lords like the Mrnjashevic family all deserve playable, authentic starts. Lets give each group the historical room to tell their story in the game.

 

[Trepanator]

Ignoring that reality because it’s ‘too complex’ or because it threatens someones modern nationalist pride shouldn’t be a reason to prevent historical gameplay.

i'm at work, I'll answer tonight, or just put you on ignore, depwnds how tired i am. I just pulled this part of the argument to ask how do you not see the irony? I've read your post history, you have issues.

 

[crowdemon]

Good Tinto flavour on Serbia and Georgia.

 

[Sizvahstar]

No, because the word "Hussar" is etymologically Hungarian. If the Serbs had a word for it before, it wouldn't be that.

I see, well that settles it I suppose!

 

[Alekslav123]

No, because the word "Hussar" is etymologically Hungarian. If the Serbs had a word for it before, it wouldn't be that.

"According to Webster's Dictionary, the word hussar stems from the Hungarian huszár, which in turn originates from the medieval Serbian husar (Cyrillic: хусар, or gusar, Cyrillic: гусар), meaning brigand (because early hussars' shock troops tactics used against the Ottoman army resembled that of brigands; in modern Serbian the meaning of gusar is limited to sea pirate)"
I took this excerpt from the english wiki page on Hussars and double checked later in a dictionary and this seems to be correct. Gusar as it is used today in Serbo-Croatian is generally used to refer to pirates for the most part but although rarerly used in the modern context it can be used widely to refer to brigands of any kind and that seemed to be the case here

 

[EneaBako]

i'm at work, I'll answer tonight, or just put you on ignore, depwnds how tired i am. I just pulled this part of the argument to ask how do you not see the irony? I've read your post history, you have issues.

You had time to stalk my post history but not enough to respond to an argument? That says everything. Im pushing for balanced historical representation-not just Serbs, but everyone who was actually there. If that bothers you, its because your version of ‘history’ cant handle reality. So yeah, block me if that helps you sleep. im not here to stroke egos, im here to push the narrative of inclusivness in the balkans like it is historically after 1355 not 1337 and give a chance to other people from other nations like Albania-League of Lezhe Montenegro-Zeta Bosnia play their version of history.

 

[koreanjesus218]

"According to Webster's Dictionary, the word hussar stems from the Hungarian huszár, which in turn originates from the medieval Serbian husar (Cyrillic: хусар, or gusar, Cyrillic: гусар), meaning brigand (because early hussars' shock troops tactics used against the Ottoman army resembled that of brigands; in modern Serbian the meaning of gusar is limited to sea pirate)"
I took this excerpt from the english wiki page on Hussars and double checked later in a dictionary and this seems to be correct. Gusar as it is used today in Serbo-Croatian is generally used to refer to pirates for the most part but although rarerly used in the modern context it can be used widely to refer to brigands of any kind and that seemed to be the case here

I'm not denying that that is indeed the origin, but it is disputed. As you no doubt saw in the wiki page, it gives 3-4 theories for the origin of the word.

 

[Alekslav123]

I'm not denying that that is indeed the origin, but it is disputed. As you no doubt saw in the wiki page, it gives 3-4 theories for the origin of the word.

Im not putting a hard pin on it, It was mostly just an add-on to the original message i replied to that "the word "Hussar" is etymologically Hungarian. If the Serbs had a word for it before, it wouldn't be that." just to show that it is possible (although not conclusive) to draw a link between the word Hussar and it being used in medieval Serbian context. I should have probably phrased the message differently though. When i said correct, i was reffering to gusar being used to refer to brigands in general, not just pirates, not neccesarily that the theory is correct

 

[koreanjesus218]

Im not putting a hard pin on it, It was mostly just an add-on to the original message i replied to that "the word "Hussar" is etymologically Hungarian. If the Serbs had a word for it before, it wouldn't be that." just to show that it is possible (although not conclusive) to draw a link between the word Hussar and it being used in medieval Serbian context. I should have probably phrased the message differently though. When i said correct, i was reffering to gusar being used to refer to brigands in general, not just pirates, not neccesarily that the theory is correct

Yeah, I wish etymology was more enthusiastically recorded, so we wouldn't have to have these pointless debates, but alas here we are. Anyways, I think because the hussars we came to know only really emerged after being organised into a proper army in the Kingdom of Hungary, the term should be reserved for such units.

 

[Alekslav123]

You had time to stalk my post history but not enough to respond to an argument? That says everything. Im pushing for balanced historical representation-not just Serbs, but everyone who was actually there. If that bothers you, its because your version of ‘history’ cant handle reality. So yeah, block me if that helps you sleep. im not here to stroke egos, im here to push the narrative of inclusivness in the balkans like it is historically after 1355 not 1337 and give a chance to other people from other nations like Albania-League of Lezhe Montenegro-Zeta Bosnia play their version of history.

No one has an obligaton to respond to you if they dont want to and if you are acting like an asshole and being dismissive to others thats all the more reason not to respond to you. The way you are pushing for an "inclusive history of the balkans" as you call it, is by being dismissive of all sources but your own and replying "Ignoring that reality because it’s ‘too complex’ or because it threatens someones modern nationalist pride shouldn’t be a reason to prevent historical gameplay." when all the poster did was post a map and ask if this is what a fractured Serbia would look like. Oh, and since its such a sticking point to you here is your peer-reviewied atlas, so you can read it, and then call the ones who made it frauds, nationalists or whatever.

The green dotted lines represent the holding of local nobles, and the pretneder emperor respectively

author and peer review

P.S to anyone reading this. My point isnt that this atlas is the end all be all of the discussion on this topic and John Fines works on the topic are good, if a bit dated and need suplementary works. The point im trying to make is to just not be a dismissive asshole and/or interpert peoples views on things based on one map they posted

 

[EneaBako]

No one has an obligaton to respond to you if they dont want to and if you are acting like an asshole and being dismissive to others thats all the more reason not to respond to you. The way you are pushing for an "inclusive history of the balkans" as you call it, is by being dismissive of all sources but your own and replying "Ignoring that reality because it’s ‘too complex’ or because it threatens someones modern nationalist pride shouldn’t be a reason to prevent historical gameplay." when all the poster did was post a map and ask if this is what a fractured Serbia would look like. Oh, and since its such a sticking point to you here is your peer-reviewied atlas, so you can read it, and then call the ones who made it frauds, nationalists or whatever.
View attachment 1308494

The green dotted lines represent the holding of local nobles, and the pretneder emperor respectively
View attachment 1308495

author and peer review

P.S to anyone reading this. My point isnt that this atlas is the end all be all of the discussion on this topic and John Fines works on the topic are good, if a bit dated and need suplementary works. The point im trying to make is to just not be a dismissive asshole and/or interpert peoples views on things based on one map they posted

Funny how I’m the ‘asshole’ for pointing out that history didn’t revolve around Serbs. You lot post a map like it’s divine truth, then cry foul when someone brings up historical context that doesn’t fit the fairytale. And spare me the moral lecture you’re throwing insults while pretending to be the victim. If your ‘inclusive history’ can’t handle non-Serbs existing in the Balkans, that’s not my problem. That’s yours. And if your peer-reviewed atlas says medieval Albania was some mono-Serb paradise, then it’s not worth the paper it’s printed on. Because as we all know, maps made centuries later in Serbian language are the ultimate truth, right? Must be why the Balkans are such a calm, unified region today. Here is a map reflecting some of the provinces also i find it very disturbing that we actually have a Albanian fragmentation in 1337, but Serbia is considered "extra" in 1355.

 

[Alekslav123]

Yeah, I wish etymology was more enthusiastically recorded, so we wouldn't have to have these pointless debates, but alas here we are. Anyways, I think because the hussars we came to know only really emerged after being organised into a proper army in the Kingdom of Hungary, the term should be reserved for such units.

Might be neat if, similar to janissaries with heathens in eu4, the recruitment pool is originally limited to only Serbian pops and later on(through an event maybe) the recruitment pool is widened

 

[Alekslav123]

Funny how I’m the ‘asshole’ for pointing out that history didn’t revolve around Serbs. You lot post a map like it’s divine truth, then cry foul when someone brings up historical context that doesn’t fit the fairytale. And spare me the moral lecture you’re throwing insults while pretending to be the victim. If your ‘inclusive history’ can’t handle non-Serbs existing in the Balkans, that’s not my problem. That’s yours. And if your peer-reviewed atlas says medieval Albania was some mono-Serb paradise, then it’s not worth the paper it’s printed on. Because as we all know, maps made centuries later in Serbian language are the ultimate truth, right? Must be why the Balkans are such a calm, unified region today.

you are either illiterate or mentally ill. Either way you need professional help

 

[EneaBako]

you are either illiterate or mentally ill. Either way you need professional help

Wait a minute wasnt it you proposing the potato event, you’re the one who said potatoes made Serbian girls go wild and double the Serbian population on Balkan Tinto talks and now you are lecturing others on historical accuracy? Bro, you are one horny vegetable.

 

[Pls fix HRE]

Serbias population number across the seems too low. The Serbiabn Empire at its peak is estimated roughly under 2 million people. If the Black plague kills something like 30% of all pops this would require Serbia to get slightly below 1,3 million people extra into the country.

@Pavía Thank you on considering the Stefan Dushan death in 1355 if you allow me to suggest a proposal “The Shattering of the Serbian Crown” System (Post-1355)

Trigger:

Death of Stefan Dudhan (1355) triggers the “Curse of Serbia” disaster (already in-game).

If Serbia's Legitimacy < 70, Stability < 2, or Rebel Factions > 40% progress, a “Crisis of Succession” event fires.

Key Event:


Crisis of Succession
This fires a new mechanic that replaces generic rebels with historically grounded separatist factions, including:

Region	Tag Spawned	Culture	Outcome
Zeta / Ulcinj / Shkodër	Balšić/Zeta	Mixed	New country tag forms or can be supported by player
Dukagjin / Tropojë	Dukagjini	Albanian	Spawns nationalist rebels, can declare independence
Lezhë / Durrës	Zaharia or League of Lezhë	Albanian	Optional emergence
Braničevo / Morava	Serbian Pretenders	Serbian	Classic succession war
Kosovo	Independent or contested	Mixed	Strong rebel province to simulate chaos

Optional Flavor:

Add missions for Serbia to re-unify lost territories if it survives.
Add Albanian missions for League of Lezhë, anti-Ottoman alliances, or Venetian interactions.


This system doesn’t seek to break Serbia for fun- it reflects the historical fact that after 1355, the empire fragmented and nobles like the Balshaj Dukagjini ect ruled independently. The current disaster only causes unrest, but not fragmentation. I propose a system where, if Serbia is weak enough, real noble factions emerge. This way, the AI still has a chance to hold it together, but the player has real agency especially in Albania and Montenegro later on to forge their own path. This isnt ahistorical. This is history.

@Pls fix HRE @wilhelmwied @Qyubid @Inzano @ArVass What do you think? Will this lead to a historical fragmentation?

Maybe but the event for Dusans death seems too weak. Maybe it isnt will have to see the real gameplay to find out. I also dont think there needs to be rebels. The Fall of the Serbian Empire was suprisingly peaceful since most didnt declare war on Serbia for thgeir independence they just ruled themselves and were vassals in name only. If the event wants to be REALLY accurate it would make some tags spawn as rebels and others as vassals who become lower and lower in the vassal integration levels until they are just independent. Would actually apply a more urgent need to quickly unscrew the situation Serbia was in of decentralizatzion and in no better words loss of central authority. 'Maybe the crisis can also spawn follow up events where these tags can spawn in (maybe a option to play as them though thats less of a concern for me) cause even if you just go to the wikipedia pages and no further you will see every independent and semi independent lord only managed to find their opportunity to fame after Emperor Dusan died.

 

[Inzano]

Desperately waiting for a response from Pavia regarding the Serbian language/dialect, with the desire to indirectly find out how the language is for other South Slavs.

Meanwhile, Serbs and Albanians are fighting over how the Serbian Empire fell apart. The hope that Pavia will even appear in this thread is diminishing with each post.

 

[Inzano]

Serbias population number across the seems too low. The Serbiabn Empire at its peak is estimated roughly under 2 million people. If the Black plague kills something like 30% of all pops this would require Serbia to get slightly below 1,3 million people extra into the country.

Maybe but the event for Dusans death seems too weak. Maybe it isnt will have to see the real gameplay to find out. I also dont think there needs to be rebels. The Fall of the Serbian Empire was suprisingly peaceful since most didnt declare war on Serbia for thgeir independence they just ruled themselves and were vassals in name only. If the event wants to be REALLY accurate it would make some tags spawn as rebels and others as vassals who become lower and lower in the vassal integration levels until they are just independent. Would actually apply a more urgent need to quickly unscrew the situation Serbia was in of decentralizatzion and in no better words loss of central authority. 'Maybe the crisis can also spawn follow up events where these tags can spawn in (maybe a option to play as them though thats less of a concern for me) cause even if you just go to the wikipedia pages and no further you will see every independent and semi independent lord only managed to find their opportunity to fame after Emperor Dusan died.

In fact, the disintegration or decentralization (IO event) should be tied to the successor. If the successor is very weak, a disintegration event would occur or in the form of independent principalities. If the successor is slightly less weak or moderately strong, an IO event would occur (The principalities are tied to the IO of the Serbian Empire with the leadership of the successor). In the case of a strong successor, the Serbian Empire would remain unified.

 

[EneaBako]

Serbias population number across the seems too low. The Serbiabn Empire at its peak is estimated roughly under 2 million people. If the Black plague kills something like 30% of all pops this would require Serbia to get slightly below 1,3 million people extra into the country.

Maybe but the event for Dusans death seems too weak. Maybe it isnt will have to see the real gameplay to find out. I also dont think there needs to be rebels. The Fall of the Serbian Empire was suprisingly peaceful since most didnt declare war on Serbia for thgeir independence they just ruled themselves and were vassals in name only. If the event wants to be REALLY accurate it would make some tags spawn as rebels and others as vassals who become lower and lower in the vassal integration levels until they are just independent. Would actually apply a more urgent need to quickly unscrew the situation Serbia was in of decentralizatzion and in no better words loss of central authority. 'Maybe the crisis can also spawn follow up events where these tags can spawn in (maybe a option to play as them though thats less of a concern for me) cause even if you just go to the wikipedia pages and no further you will see every independent and semi independent lord only managed to find their opportunity to fame after Emperor Dusan died.

I get what you are saying about how the fragmentation wasnt marked by open war or rebellion and thats true to a point. But what makes it more urgent to simulate is exactly that: the Serbian crown disintegrated not with explosions, but with silence, the kind of silent collapse that left the gates wide open for Ottoman expansion. That's the danger of reducing it to -3 stability unrest and calling it a day.

Thats also why I proposed a system flexible enough to reflect both kinds of fragmentation: yes, some nobles acted like vassals in name only, but others like the Balshaj in Zeta or Dukagjini in Northern Albania acted with total independence. We already simulate that kind of noble autonomy in other parts of the game. Why not here?
And the concern is that rebels feel too ‘weak,’ to represent the historical view, then there is room to script some factions as initial vassals with severe liberty desire, while others might go the full separatist route depending on Serbia’s stability. That approach would actually simulate the historical decentralization we mentioned and not erase it behind a vague disaster modifier.

I just think it’s strange that Albania, which had no unified state structure at all during this period, got noble tags and fragmentation nailed in the dev diaries - but Serbia, which was an empire that splintered dramatically after Dushan, gets none of it. If we ignore the breakdown of the Serbian Empire in 1355, we’re not just rewriting history, we’re erasing one of the most important collapses that enabled the Ottomans to dominate the Balkans. No Dushan death → no fragmentation → no Ottoman conquest → no siege of Vienna.

So yeah, if the choice is between a slightly oversimplified potato-map version or no fragmentation at all, Ill take the map. "But ideally, we would move beyond both and build a dynamic system that reflects how big that collapse really was not just for Serbia, but for the entire region."

 

[EneaBako]

In fact, the disintegration or decentralization (IO event) should be tied to the successor. If the successor is very weak, a disintegration event would occur or in the form of independent principalities. If the successor is slightly less weak or moderately strong, an IO event would occur (The principalities are tied to the IO of the Serbian Empire with the leadership of the successor). In the case of a strong successor, the Serbian Empire would remain unified.

The two pillars of Balkan history that need to be nailed in the early timeline are the collapse of Byzantium and the breakup of Dushans Serbia. Everything else - from the Albanian resistance to the Ottoman siege of Vienna the Venetian influence in the balkans and her holdings flows from those fractures. If Serbia is still a stable empire in 1450, then i dont know how the game can accurately simulate the chain of historical events that actually followed.

 

[BokicaTheEpic]

I get what you are saying about how the fragmentation wasnt marked by open war or rebellion and thats true to a point. But what makes it more urgent to simulate is exactly that: the Serbian crown disintegrated not with explosions, but with silence, the kind of silent collapse that left the gates wide open for Ottoman expansion. That's the danger of reducing it to -3 stability unrest and calling it a day.

Thats also why I proposed a system flexible enough to reflect both kinds of fragmentation: yes, some nobles acted like vassals in name only, but others like the Balshaj in Zeta or Dukagjini in Northern Albania acted with total independence. We already simulate that kind of noble autonomy in other parts of the game. Why not here?
And the concern is that rebels feel too ‘weak,’ to represent the historical view, then there is room to script some factions as initial vassals with severe liberty desire, while others might go the full separatist route depending on Serbia’s stability. That approach would actually simulate the historical decentralization we mentioned and not erase it behind a vague disaster modifier.

I just think it’s strange that Albania, which had no unified state structure at all during this period, got noble tags and fragmentation nailed in the dev diaries - but Serbia, which was an empire that splintered dramatically after Dushan, gets none of it. If we ignore the breakdown of the Serbian Empire in 1355, we’re not just rewriting history, we’re erasing one of the most important collapses that enabled the Ottomans to dominate the Balkans. No Dushan death → no fragmentation → no Ottoman conquest → no siege of Vienna.

So yeah, if the choice is between a slightly oversimplified potato-map version or no fragmentation at all, Ill take the map. "But ideally, we would move beyond both and build a dynamic system that reflects how big that collapse really was not just for Serbia, but for the entire region."

The two pillars of Balkan history that need to be nailed in the early timeline are the collapse of Byzantium and the breakup of Dushans Serbia. Everything else -the from the Albanian resistance to the Ottoman siege of Vienna the Venetian influence in the balkans and her holdings flows from those fractures. If Serbia is still a stable empire in 1450, then i dont know how the game cant accurately simulate the chain of historical events that actually followed.

I don't think that he wants a centralized empire after Dušan's death, but the thing is, to my understanding all the maps that have been sent as an example of the fall of the Serbian empire were at the starting faze (correct me if I'm wrong)? I do think that albanian tags and nobility should make a return gradually, thing don't fall over night. There's no need for calling each other names guys.