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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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When will we be getting information on how PUs work?
I was never a fan of how they function in EU4, as a weird vassal type, and I was hoping that in Project Caesar you have re-examined this approach to have it function more like CK- where during the period of the union it functions as a single state, but this can change and break up upon succession, or in case of a rebellion and someone claiming the throne. This is especially important, in my opinion, to represent changes within the HRE, where it was common for princes to be holding a personal union over multiple different titles, which they exercised power over as a single entity.
 
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Now for my feedback regarding the actual maps posted.

Locations, provinces and borders
I'm going to leave the details about which city or county should be represented to others who know these things better than I do, but I do want to bring up one point:

France obviously took some land that used to be part of Flanders and Wallonia. Random map from Wikipedia for reference.
I am a big proponent of having locations and provinces designed in such a way that they can naturally lead to historical borders.
That means in this case, that I would group up all the locations became part of France, and group the locations that stayed with Wallonia.
In the map shown, Dunkirk and Cassel are part of West Flanders even though they went to France, while Tournai is part of Romance Flanders even though it stayed with what is now Belgium, while Valenciennes is part of Hainaut even though it went to France.

I don't know how much the grouping into provinces affects gameplay, but I personally would like to see provinces grouped in the way they turned out historically in the time period.
So in this case, you could make a Flemish province with Dunkirk, Cassel and Lille, and another province with Douai and Valenciennes, while adding Tournai to Hainaut.

Terrain

Now we don't really know what exactly qualifies as flat or hilly and I guess views on this will vary. I think that the implications for warfare, i.e. having to deal with steep hills instead of just complete flat land, should qualify locations as hilly, even if in absolute terms there aren't any big elevations.
The Netherlands are very flat, but the region around Maastricht is known to be very hilly. It wouldn't be as easy to navigate for an army as other parts of the Netherlands. Limbourg already has hills, so I'd suggest giving Maastricht the same treatment.
I would also add hills to Liège for similar reasons - we're talking about the Ardennes here, famously more difficult to navigate than flat land in the north, unless you have German tanks I guess.
I know that the highest parts of the Ardennes are south of Maastricht and Liège, which is why the locations in the main parts of the Ardennes already have been given hill status, but once again I think that steep elevation changes and undulating terrain play a more important role than just elevation - Liège and Maastricht both have these characteristics as well.

I would also bring up Southern Flanders as potentially having some hills, specifically around Oudenaarde. I did reference the famous cycling races on cobblestone hills before, they are super concentrated exactly in that location. No high elevations but it's an area with lots of steep hills and I think specifically this Oudenaarde location would probably be harder to navigate for an army than everything around it which is just flat 'flanders fields'.

Vegetation

Is there a specific reason why Kortrijk doesn't get farmland while everything around it does? If anything, I think it would be Oudenaarde with its hills that would only get grassland.
Can you explain the difference between grassland and farmland? Is it just higher fertility for food production? I'm assuming there is no fertility value for a location, so this is the main way to say 'this location has a better capacity to sustain a high population'?
I'm not well versed enough in Low Countries fertility to give better input right now, time for some research.

I would also like to point out that I see a lot wrong with the German vegetation (and this is a sore spot for me because it's my fault that Germany has way too much forest in EU4) but this is a topic for another thread in the future.



I'm going to make a separate post for trade goods, because that will take some time to write up.
 
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View attachment 1130890

I understand that with the current engine it's not possible to make the land change, but it would be cool (E.g. India's Kutch, China's Yellow River, Also big parts of Flandres). And others have commented already.

If you are going to suggest map changes, at least used proper sources. The lables on that map are completely wrong. The 1300 map is based on an inaccurate idea that all reclaimed land must have been sea. When thats not the case. In fact the Netherlands was larger back in 1300 landmass wise than in 1600. It was due to flooding during this period that land was lost. Which had to be reclaimed later on.

Here is the source of your map which shows what it is meaning to represent:
1715363011659.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floods_in_the_Netherlands shows you that land was lost and when.

Or check out this map here which is a more accurate coastline from the time period:
 
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The biggest issues I can currently see with the coastlines are these two areas:
1: the extrusion at the coastlines of Den Haag is the modern day artificial extension of the Rotterdam harbor.
2: the part of the land in Hoorn which encircled is reclaimed land that was only reclaimed after the supposed end of the timeline of this game.
These are really important to change. I would prefer a bit more sea inside the locations of Alkmaar, Amsterdam and Leiden. But I understand why you have chosen to not do that.
Screenshot_20240510-193926_Samsung Internet~3.jpg

Furthermore I think the locations of Arnhem and Apeldoorn should become woods. These areas were and still are heavily wooded areas. (Edit: after some research I am no longer sure that these locations are actually that wooded)

Does the province of Zeeland only have one location?

You all have done a great job on the setup of the low countries
 
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The positive : this all looks really cool!

The political is the least good looking of all these maps.
 
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We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
I think it's good to include smaller cultures, especially since there are simply more provinces (LOCATIONS!) in this game so that even the smallest cultures can be included. It is worth noting that 1337 was long before nationalism and the desire to unify cultural groups into one nation.

That's why I think that this game should include cultures such as Silesian, Kashubian, Moravian, Lusatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Rusyn, Welsh, Cornish, Basque and many many others.
 
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I dont know of it has been mentioned already (a lot comments to go trough) but as a Dutchy I can see some room for improvement in the locations and provinces. First I think Breda should be split in 2 locations, the southern part should be Bergen op Zoom (the margrave of Bergen op Zoom became independent from the lord of Breda in 1287 while still being under the dukes of Brabant. Second, Kemptenland is geographicly located around Eindhoven and not where it is located know. While the whole area was called Kemptenland, the name is more often associated with the Eindhoven area than the Antwerpen area.
 
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Why is Frisia called 'Frisian Freedom'?
My guess is to let the player know there's something interesting there. Were it just called 'Frisia' they would have no clue a peasant republic hides among the feudal princes.
Oh that is mighty Rhine! Rivers really look only as layer over map.
Will rivers impact anything else besides proximity?
I am glad that rivers have visibly different sizes on the map. I hope they have varying combat and logistics effects too.
wait, you can eat wool? and i only learned of that now?
Presumably the good represents everything sheep can produce, including their meat. But naming it "wool and mutton" or just "sheep" would be less confusing.
- Why do you choose to represent the Frisian Freedoms as one tag?
How else would you represent it? Every location a separate vassal of the HRE? It will be interesting though, to see how the game handles a country this decentralized. Hopefully the model can be applied to other regions without conventional state structures.
Forests can block Fog of War completely, while Wood can only block visibility from the sea.
Fog of war mechanics deep enough to be impacted by terrain? Oh my god I am so ready!
 
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Slower movement speed for everything, and some other impacts.

Forests can block Fog of War completely, while Wood can only block visibility from the sea.
Are there any other effects of fog of war based on terrain? For example, will flatlands maybe be able to have no fow on locations more than one location away?
 
I do want to make one point regarding the trade goods:

I hate the concept of fish as a trade good that is produced without the use of salt, unless it's in regions where dried fish was historically produced without salt, like Norway, Iceland or Korea.
Fishing for local consumption was obviously super important but how does that translate into exporting fish as a trade good? In cities along rivers, fisher guilds were often among the biggest guilds - in Frankfurt it was the biggest - but I only see fish on the coast in the screenshot.
My point is that producing fish for export is separate from fishing for local food consumption and while exporting fish was mostly done with fish from the sea like cod, people with access to rivers and ponds regularly consumed fish. If you want to establish a big fish export business, you better be Norwegian or have a lot of salt around.
I'd rather fish production be represented by a coastal building that consumes salt, and have coastal/river location give more food production to represent local fish consumption.

Now to be fair, that also ties into the general issue of raw material production requiring no input goods. Iron is just magically produced in locations, skipping the elaborate process of making tools for miners, getting wood to set fires to break down the rock, building pipes to get water from the closest stream for water mills that power pumps for the mine, building furnaces to either make the iron workable into bar iron or smelt it to make cast iron.
So much technology and effort going into this historically, but it's not represented in the game. The same can be said about fish salted for export.

Anyway, I understand the abstraction and admittedly it does look very elegant to have locations just produce base materials with no inputs, but I would prefer if there were advanced production methods for raw material production that require some inputs, while base production with no inputs is relatively low.

For my feedback regarding good distribution I'm just going to roll with how it's shown in the screenshot, though.

where is the milk and cheese? Shouldn't cows be a commodity just like horses? camels, elephants, alpacas...
Livestock is a raw material that produces food. Can also be turned into leather.
 
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Are meds a raw material? In ancient times, medicines still had a manufacturing process... you didn't just eat a plant and that's it...a doctor prepared different concoctions, ointments and potions whith plants and other elements … l think meds should not be a raw material…
 
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Can we get 'city tags' as in HOI4 and the atlas mapmode in Imperator? They look pretty neat. Also, will the player be able to rename, in-game, localizations and provinces?

View attachment 1130944
Passed the feedback to the team. And about the second question, yes, it's currently possible to rename locations.
 
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Some more accurate naming suggestions for certain locations for the northern low countries:

1. Assen --> "Noord Drenthe" (the modern day Drenthe was basically barren land at the end of medieval times; had no towns, only scattered hamlets - Assen was site of an abbey that only went beyond a small village in the 18th century)
2. Emmen --> "Oost Drenthe"(again, modern day Drenthe had no towns in medieval times - Emmen also remained a small village during the time period of Project Caesar)
3. Zwolle --> Zwolle was an important city in that location, but so was Kampen for that matter, a good alternative would be "Salland" (basically comprising the area of the location
4. Enschede --> this area is and was typically called "Twente", but if you want to stick to a name for a city "Oldenzaal" was the most important urbanish area, more important that Enschede for a long time (covering most of Project Caesar's time period)
5. Doetinchem --> a more important city in this area for most of the period covering Project Caesar was "Doesburg", also a Hanseatic city like Kampen, Zwolle, Deventer and Zutphen. Doetinchem never got an upgrade of its medieval city walls, while Doesburg was deemed more important during the 17th century, receiving modernized star fort like layout
6. Apeldoorn ---> also an insignificant place until towards the end of the time period covering Project Caesar, more appropriate would be "Veluwe" basically the name for the region (also during that period
7. Hoorn --> perhaps "West Friesland" as another important city of equal weight (especially during the earlier time period) is "Medemblik" where Counts of Holland had a castle and which also served as an important trading down during the Dutch Golden Age

Some other comments:
8. Arnhem --> naming is appropriate, however, I'm in doubt of location placement of Apeldoorn vs. Arnhem, but have no better alternative
9. Someone mentioned the lack of "Haarlem" (area west of Amsterdam), which was an important urban area, at the start of the game of equal weight to Amsterdam, Den Haag, Alkmaar, etc.
10. Likewise "Delft" is missing (which could cover the eastern part of 'Den Haag' and the western part of 'Rotterdam' (i.e. Delfshaven))
Those mistakes one can surely find in the naming of the other locations on the map.
Most funny one is Mönchengladbach which had was separated in Gladbach and München and received Mönchengladbach after ww2 to be easier distinguishable from München (Munich) :D
Please make a check up for those. Especially in the ruhr and rhine area many cities developed their importance after the industrial revolution so after project caesers timeframe.
 
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