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Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
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Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

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While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
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We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
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It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
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There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
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Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
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Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
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The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
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It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
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Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
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Not many people live up in the north..
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I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
 
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I really like all this unpassable terrain in Norway. Historically the swedes had to go through Jemtland/Herjedalen to get to Trondheim/Trondhjem, and now they will have to in the game as well. Jemtland was very hostile to the swedes, and couldnt support too huge an army, if they had to live of the land.

If the swedes wanted to attack Bergen they would also most practically have to do it from the sea.

Norway is such a fun country to try out. Three different concentrations of population.. Viken, Tröndelag and the West Coast.. and connecting them by land is not really easily feasible.. Winters are long and harsh, and the raw materials of fish, lumber and wild game , while useful, are not as valuable as spices or gold.. There is a Silver Mine in Kongsberg (theoretically it should not be open yet, but..), but population levels are so low, that its hard to really exploit it..
 
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Will the way we deal with the unclaimed locations here be dealt with under the same mechanics that will apply for new world colonisation, or something different?
 
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I’d unite Nordland and Troms into one province and call it Nordlandenes Len or Hålogaland. They werent a real administrated province (len/amt) until the 1600s though.
 
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More granular than I expected. Looks great.

Also, maybe it's been answered before, but can resources change over time? I want to turn Sorsele into a sand pit.

Yeah, they can change.. but you can also build a Sand Pit as a building in many places.
 
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Will the way we deal with the unclaimed locations here be dealt with under the same mechanics that will apply for new world colonisation, or something different?

Kinda similar.
 
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I’d unite Norland and Troms into one province and call it Nordlandenes Len or Hålogaland. They werent a real administrated province (len/amt) until the 1600s though.

Norland is already too big for a province really with 11 locations..
 
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Not sure if it was already asked and answered somewhere but are you able to change the vegetation of a Location given enough money and manpower?Like going from forest to farmlands
 
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Not sure if it was already asked and answered somewhere but are you able to change the vegetation of a Location given enough money and manpower?Like going from forest to farmlands

only if we get the graphics code to work for that
 
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The map is not a globe but it's not completely flat either, right? I'm trying to stitch together all of the currently revealed maps and it's not going too great and I have no idea if I'm just deficient of if it's actually curved
 
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The map is not a globe but it's not completely flat either, right? I'm trying to stitch together all of the currently revealed maps and it's not going too great and I have no idea if I'm just deficient of if it's actually curved

its flat, but we are also not always having the camera straight.-.
 
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Hello, I'm the person who asked for Bjarmian culture to be added during the Russia Map Talk and I realize now that I forgot a lot of important details.
Bjarmian culture was meant to replace that disconnected clump of Vepsian culture that was located East of Pomor. When I made my suggestion I was fairly confident that "Bjarmia" only meant modern Arkhangelsk Oblast/Northern Dvina area but then I saw that according to the article I sent it could be understood as the entire shore of the White Sea.
I didn't intend for the East Karelian coast to be Bjarmian, but in any case please revert the Kola peninsula to Sami culture! I would feel terribly guilty that my poorly worded suggestion added more inaccuracies to the map instead of fixing them...
Here is more or less what I had in mind when I made my original comment:
1721382172752.png
 
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its flat, but we are also not always having the camera straight.-.
I guess it was just compounding errors from trying to glue together different maps without a point of reference (I forgot that the religious world map got revealed)
 
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Thoughs on the representation of Gudbrandsdalen and the surrounding area.

I am verry exited to se the representation of not only my home country, but also my home area in this game, and as a local patriot, history student, and pdx gamer, its more so my duty to comment on how you havre decided to portray "Gudbrands gode gammle dal" in Project Ceasar.

I have some comments on the reppresentation of Gudbrandsdalen, my home area in this map. I get that it (sadly) cannot be reppresented by to many locations. However I still feel that the fact of this being a valley running from Lillehammer and a good part of the way upp to Trondheim (Nidaros) is not protrayed that well, especially with the location of Imsdalen together with Valdres sepperating the two Gudbrandsdal-locations, namely Lillehammer and Otta. If Gudbradsdalen is only going to get two locations, thats fair, but they should at least connect directly. (Genneraly I believe the locations in the Innlandet area (here represented by the provinces of Oppland and Hedmark) should better protray the fact that Valdres, Gudbrandsdalen and Østerdalen are all valleys, running north to south, and especialy Gudbrandsdalen and Østerdalen being the main routes between the major cities of Oslo and Trondheim (Nidaros).

Next upp is the location of Otta itself. Otta didnt exist in 1337. It didnt exist untill 1896. That is halfway into a good game of Victoria 3, and way after the projected end date of Project Ceasar. The growth of many of the population centres in Gudbrandsdalen and Østerdalen (like Otta, Vinstra (my hometown) or Tynsett) was a direct result of the development of the rail system. And so portraying it as the location representing half of Gudrandsdalen to me is a wrong. The names Nordgudbrandsdalen or just Gudbrandsdalen would work better. However, my sugestion is that the Otta location should absorb the parts of Imsdalen and Valdres which are "sticking into it" (seperating it from Lillehammer), and then be renamed Fron (as the current location currently only concists of the Northern part of Fron).
Another sugestion, however one I feel perhaps would make Gudbrandsdalen a bit to portrayed if that makes sense, is to splitt off the southern part of Otta, the "sticking in parts" from Valdres and Imsdalen, and the northern parts of Lillehammer into a new location called Fron. Otta should then be renamed to Nordgudbrandsdalen, Vågå or Lom.
However, I feel that representing Gudbrandsdalen by two locations is more than enough without bloating the region (even though I would love locations for every population centre off cource :p)

I also believe that Otta should be able to reach Rauma. I believe it was stated early on that you could pass wasteland for heavy attrition, but even still, going over here to get to Raumadalen and into Møre og Romsdal was more than possible, in the same way that a coridor between Eidfjord and Nummedal is represented farther south.

Genneraly I think CK3 in some ways portrays Gudbrandsdalen in many ways that I am sugesting here.


My most important sugestions really are:
1) To better portray the locations in this area as part of three parallell valleys (most importantly connecting Otta and Lillehammer)
2) Rename Otta (sugestions are Nordgudbradsdalen, Gudbrandsdalen and Fron)
3) Conect Otta to Rauma

And some minor comments off less importance:
1)Represent Gudbrandsdalslågen (the river) running through Gudbradsdalen
2)Represent Mjøsa (the lake) where Gudbrandsdalslågen ends in between the locations of Hamar, Lillehammer, Vestglomma and Vardal.
3)Perhaps not make the arctic climate part of this area. I have not engaged myself enough in the discussion of climate earlier, so I do not know what constitutes arctic climate in Project Ceasar. But I have my entire life living here and studying I have allways read the term Continental, and I also believe that the climate does not differ that much from other areas of the game chosen to be represented as continental (Scotland as a main example). I would therefore move the area of Arctic farther upp, and not extending so far into Norway as it does in the current build.


Some sources I have read in the past:

  • Grieg, Sigurd: Gudbrandsdalen i mellomalderen: mennesket og kulturen, 1957–58, 2 bind.
  • Ramberg, Knut, red.: Gudbrandsdalen, 1974 (Bygd og by i Norge), isbn 82-05-06284-6.
  • Valen-Sendstad, Fartein: Gudbrandsdalen i middelalderen: garden og samfunnet, 1956.
    Also most of the Fronsbygdin series going over history from the area
    In adition to having lives here all my life, studying history, and bing a municipal representative in Nord-Fron municipality
 
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