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Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
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Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

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While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
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We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
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It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
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There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
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Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
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Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
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The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
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It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
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Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
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Not many people live up in the north..
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I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
 
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First reactions:
- Ulfsby is very misplaced. It would be in the same location as Björneborg. Looking from the location, to me Ikalis (Ikaalinen) would be a better name for that province.
The province should probably start as Ulfsby and be renamed by an event to Björneborg.
- Kotka was founded 1879, and doesn't belong in the game. Try Kymi if you don't get a better suggestion.
- The Swedish name of Provoo is Borgå, the Swedish name of Koivisto is Björkö, and the Swedish name of Mikkeli is St. Michel.
- Finland needs more marshes, sadly I'm not sure which provinces to suggest. (Can't find a good reference on the net). Looking at my old atlas, I would suggest the coastal province north of Uleåborg, the coastal province south of Uleåborg, and Kemijärvi could have a terrain change to marsh.
- Koppo? Did you mean Koppö, the old name of Kristinestad?
 
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You can still play as the Kingdom of Hungary and as a revenge culture convert everyone from Constantinople to Lapland.
Yeah but there are way more people in the balcans than Sandinavia, if let's say, Sweden can convert 20 people per year, they would be able to convert the vast majority of these locations in less than 50 years
 
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It might be difficult to source namelists and so on, but the homogenous "Sámi" culture should definitely be split. If it's enough for Swedish and Norwegian, it's enough for them. The sámi languages are NOT mutually intelligible, and there should at least be a division between the cultures of the south, north, and kola peninsula.

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Yeah but there are way more people in the balcans than Sandinavia, if let's say, Sweden can convert 20 people per year, they would be able to convert the vast majority of these locations in less than 50 years
True, also a bit unbalanced. If Sweden would convert the place by moving people there, that would be okay, as you still have the locals. But it is funny to convert 20 dudes out of 30k.
 
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1) Okay, so Saami and Finns are organized into non-location based countries? I think that is a very ideal system and I love to see it but I would still like to see some representation on the map. Also, you have to talk about non-location countries as soon as possible as Tinto Maps will be getting out of Europe soon. I do not know what to think about this map for example, not enough information. Can you tell a bit about them?

2) I think there will be a random Atlantic islands tinto map from Greenland to Falklands, how correct am I?

3) Would a Geatish culture make sense? Elfdalian? IDK, correct me Scandinavian friends.
 
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Why is Sweden just "Sweden" and Norway is the "Kingdom of Norway"? They are both kingdoms, if you include the rank for Norway you should also include that for every other country in the world, like the "Kingdom of France", the "Khanate of the Golden Orde", the "Delhi Sultanate" and so on... use it or don't use it, but not both.
 
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If Hjelmeland includes the islands outside, and it should, then a better name is Ryfylke. This location also includes the more populous area of Strand, and the islands in Boknafjord were notably more prosporous than Hjelmeland due to the excelent farmland by the sea. So, Ryfylke, a name that refers to the islands and eastern part of the mainland along Boknafjord is better. It also includes Suldal and a part of Haugalandet, but thats fine.

Suledal should be Suldal, and Sirudal Sirdal. Unless you have some medieval sources to the different.

Bohus län should be Båhus len, and Bergenshus len. There are no umlaurts in Norwegian

Edit:

Raw materials: Ryfylke (see Hjelmeland) and Stavanger should produce agricultural products. In this perios (as well as now), this was a minor bread basket in Norway. There was a net export of agricultural products from this region to the rest of Norway in this time period. I suggest livestock, possibly sturdy grains in Stavanger.
 
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Okay I have a lot to say here, but I’ll start with something I already said before. Add more lakes! Hearts of Iron 4’s map has more lakes in Finland than this one does.

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Also, you could afford to make Lapland even more hilly, see how much 500+ meter altitude terrain there is.

Third of all, more wetlands! (As i suggested in another thread, you should rename marsh terrain to wetland for a more broad and accurate definition).

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All this green is swamp! And its a modern map, there used to be even more. Its called SUOmi for a reason!

Here’s a map with colors showing the natural states of swamps in the modern day, with red being drained and such, green being natural and mostly untouched and white being non-swamps:

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Same probably applies for Sweden/Karelia too btw.

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I will be back with more excessive nitpicking. Damn you Johan for posting so early! But thank you as well. Also this tinto maps should’ve been called ”Nordics”, not Scandinavia! Finland is not never has been and never will be Scandinavia.
 
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1) Okay, so Saami and Finns are organized into non-location based countries? I think that is a very ideal system and I love to see it but I would still like to see some representation on the map. Also, you have to talk about non-location countries as soon as possible as Tinto Maps will be getting out of Europe soon. I do not know what to think about this map for example, not enough information. Can you tell a bit about them?

2) I think there will be a random Atlantic islands tinto map from Greenland to Falklands, how correct am I?

3) Would a Geatish culture make sense? Elfdalian? IDK, correct me Scandinavian friends.
3) Yes, Elfdalian should be its own culture. The language diverged from old east norse sometime after the 9th century. If cultures are to be based on linguistics, as they've said earlier, it has no reason not to be.
 
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We'll we get to see Iceland, Greenland and the Faroe Islands?

Re: Finland
- You can just call Finland Proper "Finland" at this time assuming there's no other subdivision in the game called "Finland", this shouldn't cause any confusion. I also feel like Åland should be part of it rather than Uppland, given how, for instance it was also part of the Grand Duchy of Finland, but I'm not too sure about which subdivision it was in at the time.
- "Suomenusko", like "Romuva", is also the name of a neopagan movement, but it also just means "Finnish Faith", so I don't have as much of an issue with it ("Finnic/Kalevic Paganism would be preferable though). If it is a thing, then I don't know why Ingrians and Veps are still shown as just animist, probably an oversight.
- In the same vein, why not call Norse Paganism either Forn Sið ("old custom") or Heiðinn Sið ("heathen custom"), which is what it was refered to as in Old Norse?
- I'm pretty sure that the Swedish control of Finland at this time is a lot larger than you've shown here, I was half-expecting that you guys were going to make the different Finnish tribes into tags based on the fact that you've decided to show so little direct Swedish control, but that appears to not be the case unless I've missed something. I've even just realized that you appear to show Swedish pops in places outside of Swedish control.
- Kven culture should probably be renamed to "Ostrobothnian". That is, if there were even Finns inhabiting the area at the time rather than Sámi peoples. In fact Savonian culture might've also not existed at this time, it was formed by Tavastian and Karelians settling territory previously inhabited at this time, but I'm not sure.
- I also think that Finnish culture is probably a bit too big, it appears to include a lot of traditional Tavastian and Ostrobothnian lands (that is, places that still speak Tavastian and Ostrobothnian dialects to this day), but I don't know if Tavastians and Ostrobothnians were already being assimilated at this time. Someone else can probably dump some research on here so corroborate/dispell what I said.

I remember there was a post that articulated all of my complaints perfectly, I just can't seem to find it. I'm hoping it has already been posted and I just haven't noticed it yet.
 
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I agree with the two other Danish posts so far. There are a good few changes able to be made. I'd like to add

Bornholm location is currently called Hammershus. While it was a fort. I would prefer the location to simply be called Bornholm. Same as Ebeltoft and Kalø. It's weird seeing a single location island not be called the name of the island. I guess this would go for Åland too, but that is not my country so idk.

I don't know if Limestone is in the game, but it would be cool to include Faxe Kalkbrud for a limestone good in the Ringsted location. Though I don't know how large a mine needs to be to warrant a good like that.

Lolland and Falster are two separate islands. Seems to me they are connected here. I get that Guldborg Sund is narrow, but every other PDX game managed to make them two islands, so I'd be dissappointed if they aren't here. Could also split them between locations of Lolland and Falster probably.

I'd also add that the location borders are a bit odd on Sjælland. And I feel you could add a location or two. Fyn could also be split threeways.
 
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Why is Sweden just "Sweden" and Norway is the "Kingdom of Norway"? They are both kingdoms, if you include the rank for Norway you should also include that for every other country in the world, like the "Kingdom of France", the "Khanate of the Golden Orde", the "Delhi Sultanate" and so on... use it or don't use it, but not both.
That sort of question is already answered in Tinto Maps #2, in Pavía's words: "we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map)"

The name placement has probably just calculated that "Kingdom of Sweden" is too long to fit in the space. I can't tell you why it thinks there's enough space for "Kingdom of Norway" though, seeing as it's shrunk comically tiny compared to Sweden
 
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Any possible events for gold spawning in northern Finland? As Finland has current largest gold mine in mainland Europe. Or any other raw metal mines as Sweden started building them in Finland during 16th century.
 
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