Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Thorum]

Looks very flat to me.

That's the correct answer for when people started asking for mountains in Dutch Limbourg, not with cliffs of dozens of meters high (of course, just basing it off of the one picture)

 

[Slime99]

Plenty of locations where land lower than 500 meters has been made hills.

 

[ArVass]

That's the correct answer for when people started asking for mountains in Dutch Limbourg, not with cliffs of dozens of meters high (of course, just basing it off of the one picture)

No way that actually happened lmao

 

[Thorum]

No way that actually happened lmao

A bit augmented in my memory, but not by THAT much

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/tinto-maps-1-10th-of-may-2024-low-countries.1675505/post-29621396

 

[matfer13]

Why?

Because the game historically ends after the napoleonic wars, where the bortger between Sweden and Finalnd was the same to this day

 

[sevibab]

I am wondering about the reasoning for the population in Bergen, Nidaros and Oslo. I understand that all population numbers are estimates since there is no accurate data for 1337 on the required level of detail. However, as far as I understand, in 1337 Bergen was the most populas city in Norway, followed by Nidaros, with Oslo as the third most populos city. The estimates I have heard is that Bergen was around twice as large as the two other cities, while Nidaros and Oslo was more or less equal in size. this was due to the exclusive trading rights which Bergen had, where foreign ships were not allowed to go further north than Bergen.

The numbers themselves are probably fine, but I would maybe consider switching the population of Bergen and Oslo

One source which says the same is "Norge under Sværreætten: 1177 - 1319" by Kåre Lunden, page 319. I tried to post a link, but the spamfilter picked it up.

 

[KaiserWilhelmI]

I can't comment on borders, but i have some thoughts about the naming. Many are too modern.

Kotka wasn't founded until late 19th century. It should more accurately called "Kymi" (Kymmene in Swedish)

Hamina (Fredrikshamn in Swedish) was founded in response to the loss of Viborg in 1720's. It should be named Vehkalahti (Veckelax in Swedish).

Kouvola was founded in the 1920's. The correct name for it is more difficult than the others, but it could be called Elimäki (Elimä in Swedish)

Lahti as a major settlement was founded in 1878, it should be called Hollola.

 

[ArVass]

Plenty of locations where land lower than 500 meters has been made hills.
View attachment 1165676
View attachment 1165678

View attachment 1165679
View attachment 1165682

It does highlight a problem with a "systematic" approach to topography and trying to use average elevation above sea level as basis for hills and mountains because it doesn't really care about local variation in elevation and unique landforms. It takes away flavour if the locally important and famous hills of some random location are ommitted because they only reach up to 499 m or something, in which case there is just more to lose than gain. Unfortunately the best way to combat this is really just in-depth research into each country's topography (or even checking out the entries in a Wikipedia article like "List of hills/mountain ranges in [country]" could be sufficient sometimes)

 

[Katana500]

There should probably be large German minorities in Bergen & Abo/Turku due to the considerable Hanseatic League presence.

Lesser known than the German Community, Bergen also had a thriving ScottishCommunity and according to some accounts some 10% of its population by the 16/17th Century was Scottish. Scottish immigration rose largely in the 1500s though there was a Scottish presence before this. The Hansa community grew to resent the Scottish merchants who settled in Bergen, and on 9 November 1523 several Scottish households were targeted by German residents. There was also a small Dutch presence.

I would propose a large German minority in Bergen along with a small Scots & Dutch minority (all largely Burghers).

 

[rapido]

I'm also working on feedback regarding this region, but more from the Swedish perspective, who also laid claim in the area. I'm wondering how the Sámi siida and the Swedish Lappmark systems play into this.

When both Sweden and Norway collected tax from the siidas of Kautokeino and Aviovaara, Sweden administered them as part of Lappland, more specifically Torne Lappmark. I'm not sure however how Norway administered them. Were they part of a Finnmark county perhaps? What about Utsjok and Enare, which were also taxed by both powers? The current provinces seem to be based on modern borders established in the 1751 Strömstad Treaty, so they probably aren't accurate from the point of view of either country. Do you think it would be appropriate to move Kautokeino and Aviovaara to a Swedisj Lappland province or maybe the other way around move Utsjoki and Inari to a Norwegian Finnmark province?

View attachment 1165597

Yes, there was a lot of claims in the area, usually followed up by taxation of the saami population, the swedish claims extented to the sami population in the fjords on the norwegian side of the mountains, but they went back on their claims as a part of a peace treaty.

Its tricky to comment in a somewhat short fashion on the siida borders. They are mostly a taxation and juridical construct made by the governments to make things easy when collecting tax. The modern siida is closly tied to reindeer pastoralism, which did not exist at the start of this game, but was widespread towards the end. The devolpement is easiest to track on the swedish side of the mountains since they kept more informative records. We have very little primary source evidence of this form of organization, its based on some studies Vaino Tanner did in the Petsamo erae around 1900, which was then applied to all places where saami people lived, even thou no such organizations are attested, in the way they are often described. Sami economic and social organization was quite varied across the whole area where they could be found, ranging from husbandry with cattle and sheep, to large scal salamon fisheries, cod fishing at the coast or hunting.

The norwegians administrated Kautokeino and Aviovara as a part of Finnmark county. both sweden and Norway employed a tax collector each for collecting the tax from the saami population. Some years the priests had to do most of the administration (writing up the census). I have also seen that the both Kemi and Torne is administrated by the same guy, some years. Since it was an easy job, only taking a couple of weeks (Write down names of adult males, use the list from last year as reference, and extort some tax from them) this was usually a side hussle for prominent birlkarl traders in Tornio, later it gets more formalized.

Utsjok is named tenotekis in the dano-norwegian source material, but it is lumped together with the rest of Finnmark together with the saami settlement at the south shore of the lake Inari. Utsjok is placed in Torne Lappmark by the swedes, Enare is placed in Kemi Lappmark.

I would probably just split the provinces along the ridge of the mouantain range splitting Norway and sweden. (Meaning that Utsjok and Enare would go to Finnmark) I have the impression that people really enjoy recreating modern borders so that might be an argument for just keeping the locations as is.

 

[228sadboy228]

I wonder how could we interact with pagans in Scandinavia. Can i just appoint them as advisors as Sweden for example?

 

[ArVass]

I did find a map of Finland's present peatlands and past, drained ones, though it 1. doesn't include non-peaty wetlands such as well-oxygenated swamps and marshes where peat doesn't form and 2. there are barely any NOT wetlands so it is probably an overshoot

 

[Thorum]

I would probably just split the provinces along the ridge of the mouantain range splitting Norway and sweden. (Meaning that Utsjok and Enare would go to Finnmark) I have the impression that people really enjoy recreating modern borders so that might be an argument for just keeping the locations as is.

The problem is that the border follows the Tana river, which according to wiki was important in Sami culture and is (and probably was) an important connection, with villages all along (mosty the Finnish side of) the bank. Apart from "I want today's borders", Utsjoki location should include the Norwegian bank of this river as well.

For grouping in provinces, making this river region one province is probably more consistent geographically, though somehow history turned out differently.

 

[Torakka]

View attachment 1165717
I did find a map of Finland's present peatlands and past, drained ones, though it 1. doesn't include non-peaty wetlands such as well-oxygenated swamps and marshes where peat doesn't form and 2. there are barely any NOT wetlands so it is probably an overshoot

That "proportion of drained peatland" map might not mean "this area was x% peatland before" but "this area has had x% of its former peatland drained, regardless of how much peatland there was in this area before"

 

[Johan]

I am wondering about the reasoning for the population in Bergen, Nidaros and Oslo. I understand that all population numbers are estimates since there is no accurate data for 1337 on the required level of detail. However, as far as I understand, in 1337 Bergen was the most populas city in Norway, followed by Nidaros, with Oslo as the third most populos city. The estimates I have heard is that Bergen was around twice as large as the two other cities, while Nidaros and Oslo was more or less equal in size. this was due to the exclusive trading rights which Bergen had, where foreign ships were not allowed to go further north than Bergen.

The numbers themselves are probably fine, but I would maybe consider switching the population of Bergen and Oslo

One source which says the same is "Norge under Sværreætten: 1177 - 1319" by Kåre Lunden, page 319. I tried to post a link, but the spamfilter picked it up.

That is cities though.

 

[Ipponen]

Yes, there was a lot of claims in the area, usually followed up by taxation of the saami population, the swedish claims extented to the sami population in the fjords on the norwegian side of the mountains, but they went back on their claims as a part of a peace treaty.

Its tricky to comment in a somewhat short fashion on the siida borders. They are mostly a taxation and juridical construct made by the governments to make things easy when collecting tax. The modern siida is closly tied to reindeer pastoralism, which did not exist at the start of this game, but was widespread towards the end. The devolpement is easiest to track on the swedish side of the mountains since they kept more informative records. We have very little primary source evidence of this form of organization, its based on some studies Vaino Tanner did in the Petsamo erae around 1900, which was then applied to all places where saami people lived, even thou no such organizations are attested, in the way they are often described. Sami economic and social organization was quite varied across the whole area where they could be found, ranging from husbandry with cattle and sheep, to large scal salamon fisheries, cod fishing at the coast or hunting.

The norwegians administrated Kautokeino and Aviovara as a part of Finnmark county. both sweden and Norway employed a tax collector each for collecting the tax from the saami population. Some years the priests had to do most of the administration (writing up the census). I have also seen that the both Kemi and Torne is administrated by the same guy, some years. Since it was an easy job, only taking a couple of weeks (Write down names of adult males, use the list from last year as reference, and extort some tax from them) this was usually a side hussle for prominent birlkarl traders in Tornio, later it gets more formalized.

Utsjok is named tenotekis in the dano-norwegian source material, but it is lumped together with the rest of Finnmark together with the saami settlement at the south shore of the lake Inari. Utsjok is placed in Torne Lappmark by the swedes, Enare is placed in Kemi Lappmark.

I would probably just split the provinces along the ridge of the mouantain range splitting Norway and sweden. (Meaning that Utsjok and Enare would go to Finnmark) I have the impression that people really enjoy recreating modern borders so that might be an argument for just keeping the locations as is.

Thanks for the info!

I'm leaning towards modern borders myself as a compromise. It just kinda feels wrong to have Enare be part of Finnmark and Kautokeino part of Lappland if you split the locations. The reason why I wasn't sure at first was cause I was thinking Lappland should be split according to the historical Lappmarks, so Eastern Lappland would be Kemi Lappmark, Nörra Lappland is Torne Lappmark and Södra Lappland could be one of the smaller lappmarks. The problem is that for most of the game Torne Lappmark also contained southern Finnmark and Utsjok, so if southern Finnmark is given to Finnmark, Utsjok would be an isolated location. Luckily it looks like that in maps following the Strömstad Treaty, Utsjoki is lumped together with Kemi Lappmark, so doing so in the game wouldn't be too inaccurate.

 

[ArVass]

That "proportion of drained peatland" map might not mean "this area was x% peatland before" but "this area has had x% of its former peatland drained, regardless of how much peatland there was in this area before"

That's a potential explanation, though it raises the question how much of it was originally peatland. Still, I do think that parts of Österbotten and Inner Österbotten should be arctic wetland forests, and probably at least some of the areas of the Finnish lakeland in Tavastland, Savolax and Far Karelia should be wetlands too to simulate the tens of thousands of convoluted lakes that hinder travel around those parts. I do think adding a big more lakes in that area could be a fun addition too.

 

[Druplesnubb]

What is the reason for Scania being a dominion insted of being integrated?

 

[ArVass]

What is the reason for Scania being a dominion insted of being integrated?

I also do wonder what being a dominion means. Hopefully we will get a more in-depth explanation of subject types in a future TT

 

[Red Death]

Looks very flat to me.

I vehemently disagree, but given I was born in the Netherlands, I acknowledge my perspective is skewed.