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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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I notice on the Polish front that there aren't any changes to that region. Does that mean that the Poland-Ruthenia-Baltic feedback turn is still a long while away? Or is it just that Western/Central Poland didn't need any facelift
 
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The Oberrhein area being exclsuively right of the Rhine makes little sense, if its gonna keep its name it should be both left and right of the Rhine.

View attachment 1168162
The Speyer location seems quite large, you could split out a Haardt location to its east, since the actual free city of Speyer was quite a lot smaller.
Kaiserslautern should not be owned by Trier but rather probably by Bohemia or Leiningen if you dont want that and should also be wooded.
Meanwhile deforestation on the Upper Rhine was long under way, atleast Worms should be grasslands and Darmstadt, Bensheim and Heidelberg should be wooded rather than forested.
Kaiserslautern was given to Balduin of Trier, so it actually is properly represented. Balduin fought the emperor in that region before a peace was signed.
A couple of things for the Holstein area:

  • 1. To fit in more, the other provinces in Holstein, the name “Stormarn Gau” should be changed to “Hamburg”. All the other Provinces are named after their dominating city. Historically, the Gau was reduced in size to the "Stormarn"-Location in 1322, with the Alster as its western border.
    https://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/wappen-und-geschichte/index.html
    I found no reference in English.


  • 2. The northern Part of the “Heide”-location should be given to the “Husum”-Location. The northern border of Dietmarschen historically, was the Eider.
    View attachment 1168197

  • 3. The “Hamburg”-Location should be split into “Pinneberg” and “Hamburg” and the river Elbe should move a bit more inland, so that the “Hamburg”-Location still has a harbor.
    View attachment 1168198
    (Maybe the “Hamburg”-Location should be made a bit bigger…)Pinneberg should be given to a new tag with the name "Holstein-Pinneberg", it feels wrong that you have the other two territories of the House of Schaumburg in Holstein already but are missing the third one.
    View attachment 1168200
    I again have no English reference, other than Wikipedia. Only books in German, for which I also found no online Archive
This is why I suggested this earlier (see here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...h-of-july-2024-germany.1696699/#post-29791531 )

The province of Pinneberg which would be owned by the County of Schaumburg which is already represented. Holstein-Pinneberg and Schaumburg were in a personal union at that time, but it should be probably owned by the very same tag, as it's only two provinces in total.


I would also like to mention that the Eutin province should be cut out of Lübeck and most of the current Eutin province should be owned by Holstein.

1721490720004.png
 
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I wouldn't mind having (Austro-)Bavarian dynamic province names. Minga, Wean, Soizbuag, Rengschbuag and Innschbruck sound so much better.

Bavarian was actually split into three cultures:
Northern Bavarian called Upper Palatine.
Danube Bavarian which is actually also a name used for this (the other is Central Bavarian = "Mittelbairisch").
Southern Bavarian

So actually Upper Palatine should just be changed to Northern Bavarian to make it all consistent.

View attachment 1168202

The problem with using dialect for names is that Bavarian is not a monolith with lots of dialectic variety. And they also change so much over time. And sources are not consistent on the naming. For example, I‘ve seen the city of Graz written as „Graz“, „Gratz“ and „Grätz“ in historical documents.
 
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Question:

I was wondering about the culture of Saxon being "Lower Saxon and Saxon" versus "Lower Saxon and Upper Saxon." I was curious about the reasoning behind the naming, more or less.
 
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It's gonna take me some time to really look over each each of the 357 countries! I have just a couple questions so far:

What is the population of the entire HRE?

I've noticed that the purple imperial lines have gone into some parts of France and Poland while also not covering some parts of Verona and Valentinois. Is it safe to say that the purple lines in France and Poland are errors but it's as intended for Verona and Valentinois to additionally make it clear that they're free cities?
 
So Austria is bavarian culture? interesting.
and i'm impatient to restore the natural borders of France... i mean up to the rhine at least , hope theprovinces will be rather nice for that one goal.
 
Dynasties:
View attachment 1167613
The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.
Welfen is the plural for of the house. Like Welfs in English. Why was it changed from von Welf from EU4?
 
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I agree with my Tirolian friend here, ... there needs to be more impassable land, because:

View attachment 1168176

You just dont walk with an Army , Carts and Cannons simply north into Bavaria. The Topography simply wont allow that.
Historically we can orient us here at the Via Imperii Source: (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Imperii)
In this historical map (north is down) from 1500 there were basically three ways through Tyrol:
View attachment 1168181
One Road ist east through Kuffstein, and the other is west over Seefeld to get into Bavaria. The third access is south over the Brenner Pass.

putting this into your location map (with north up) it would look like this:
View attachment 1168183

Red-Marking: i sugest "impassable" crossing between Locations ... as your army is going to have a very very hard time when trying to cross.
Orange-Marking: .. is seasonal walkable. See these are passes who only are crossable in Summer. Also back in the 1400s there were no roads there... only skinny foodpaths. So good luck carrying your heavy cannons by hand on a shaky passway where one wrong step will let you fall in your demise. :)
And thats Summer, winter is even worse... no change to cross in winter, you d loose a quater of your army i the snow up there... hmm ... i dont suppose you have something like "seasonal impassable land"?

But if not orange, ... definitly pls consider making the red marked location borders impassable. They always are impassable. :)

Great HRE map otherwhise, i love it :)
Almost 100% agreement with you. We absolutely NEED impassable terrain. The only thing I would add is that the Achenpass was also used from the 16th century onwards and should probably also be included although it's not the end of the world if it would be omitted.
 
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Regarding Vorarlberg:
I'm very happy to see it represented as three locations!
Good to see Romansch as the majority in Bludenz and Feldkirch. It would remain in Bludenz up until the 17th century, Feldkirch was already quite far in its germanization by this point., wether Romansch is still the majority there by this point is impossible to say, but I think it's not unreasonable.
On the population scale, there are no good records of this period of course, but over 100k for Feldkirch strikes me as too high - that's about a third of the population there nowadays. Also the population of Bregenz would have been certainly much higher than in Bludenz, which at that point in time was rather sparsely populated.
To sum up, the population of Bregenz might be reasonable, but for Feldkirch and Bludenz I'd guess it's too high.

Bludenz probably should be producing silver, as there were important silver mines in the valley of Montafon (in a village called up until the 17th century Silberberg - Silver mountain, nowadys its confusingly called Silbertal, even though its not a valley). The mines were in use since prehistoric times, and saw their high point exactly in this time period (also being a reason for the Habsburgs to slowly take over this region), before sinking into irrelevance in the early modern period, like many other silver mines in Europe (due to the dreaded spanish silver!).
 
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Area Names and Borders: (a bit more medival than modern)
german_states.png

The "von Mark" dynasty, which later had a french cadet branch knwon as "de la Marck" should be called "von der Mark"
 
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Austrian Friend of Mine wanted to say it should be called Austro-Bavarian not Danube-Bavarian

Also looking forward to what you have to show of Mzab
 
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I discovered this article yesterday. In fact, based on several models, the number of inhabitants per 100 years from 600 to 1800 was analyzed for the territory of the modern border of the Republic of Slovenia. There may also be foreign articles on this topic that used the same models for Austria, Germany or Switzerland. According to the least optimistic model, it was determined that there should be at least one more population in the territory of Slovenia than Tinto Maps published.


1722011973990.png
 
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Since I am from the Lake Constance area, a few quick observations on that part:

-geography: Please, please, please add the "Obersee" to the Lake Constance, without it it looks really strange. The new Italian Lakes are so beautifully detailed i feel the LC should match that

-Trade Goods: there should definitely be some wine on the Lake, it is an important area since at least the 8th century until today and several types of wine actually originate there. I would recommend turning at least Konstanz and probably also Überlingen into wine producers

- political: Wangen should be a free city. It gained that Status in 1286 and was an important Player in the City Leagues of southern Germany

Edit: two additional suggestions for the swiss side of things (though I am not swiss so feel free to correct me)

- "Frauenfeld" should probably be "Winterthur" since it is the historically more significant settlement (today as well) not only in roman Times but especially during the swiss-habsburg conflicts which are significant for the early game

- if there is any room for New locations it might be good to create "Vaduz" from "St. Gallen" and "Feldkirchen" since it was a separate county and forms the gros of the country of Liechtenstein
 
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Austrian Friend of Mine wanted to say it should be called Austro-Bavarian not Danube-Bavarian

Also looking forward to what you have to show of Mzab
Austro-Bavarian encompasses all three branches: northern, middle / Danube and southern. He doesn't want to exclude his fellow Carinthians, Southern Styrians and Tyrolese from being called Austrian, does he ;) ?
 
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-Gorlitz should be Görlitz
-Welfen should be Welf (or something similiar) due to the fact that the dynasty names also reflect the surnames and Welfen wouldn't fit
-In addition I would consider changing berlin and beeskow to marches (as for the other locations in the region I don't know)
Berlin was founded on a swamp and there were problems with some buildings that were unstable (Sources: Wikipedia Germany: Geschichte von Berlin and my knowledge)
in the beeskow location there are many lakes and swamps, but also often places where it is very dry (I live there)

-There was also the drainage of the oderbruch, so there were also wetlands there
 
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