Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

[Nemoras]

Not 100% related, but happy to see the location names in Vicenza Province changed finally since they were not updated in the italy feedback thread
HRE seems incredible!

 

[Pavía]

It's gonna take me some time to really look over each each of the 357 countries! I have just a couple questions so far:

What is the population of the entire HRE?

I've noticed that the purple imperial lines have gone into some parts of France and Poland while also not covering some parts of Verona and Valentinois. Is it safe to say that the purple lines in France and Poland are errors but it's as intended for Verona and Valentinois to additionally make it clear that they're free cities?

The boundaries are not errors, in principle, as we specifically reviewed (and discussed) them a couple of times.

 

[Palando]

By the way, I'd suggest renaming Schongau to Pfaffenwinkel (it didn't encompass all of those provinces but it's better than just taking the name of one province).

Grafschaft should be renamed to Schaunberg, obviously.

Fränkische Schweiz should be renamed to Muggendorfer Gebirge which is the historical name used by the Burgraves of Nürnberg (later Brandenburg-Ansbach and Bayreuth-Kulmbach).

Oberpfälzer Wald should just be shortened to Oberpfalz, as it nearly includes all of it, while there is no other province which uses Oberpfalz in its name.

 

[Pavía]

Welfen is the plural for of the house. Like Welfs in English. Why was it changed from von Welf from EU4?

Hmm, good point; I think that it is a Germanism that has slipped through.

 

[Daverix]

Regarding Vorarlberg:
I'm very happy to see it represented as three locations!
Good to see Romansch as the majority in Bludenz and Feldkirch. It would remain in Bludenz up until the 17th century, Feldkirch was already quite far in its germanization by this point., wether Romansch is still the majority there by this point is impossible to say, but I think it's not unreasonable.
On the population scale, there are no good records of this period of course, but over 100k for Feldkirch strikes me as too high - that's about a third of the population there nowadays. Also the population of Bregenz would have been certainly much higher than in Bludenz, which at that point in time was rather sparsely populated.
To sum up, the population of Bregenz might be reasonable, but for Feldkirch and Bludenz I'd guess it's too high.

Bludenz probably should be producing silver, as there were important silver mines in the valley of Montafon (in a village called up until the 17th century Silberberg - Silver mountain, nowadys its confusingly called Silbertal, even though its not a valley). The mines were in use since prehistoric times, and saw their high point exactly in this time period (also being a reason for the Habsburgs to slowly take over this region), before sinking into irrelevance in the premodern period, like many other silver mines in Europe (due to the dreaded spanish silver!).

I was thinking of Silver for Bludenz as well, ...
Also yeah, i also love the Romansch in Bludaz.
And the population indeed feels like a lot. Vorarlberg has like 400K People today... hard to belive they had 200K together in the 1300s.
We could discuss almost halfing the population. ( Do frog i mi grad ob se ned bei andra locations ned o übertriba hon was d Bevölkerung anbelangt).

 

[kuroku]

I am pretty sure that the raw resource for Wetzlar should be iron instead of wine. I (maybe obviously) come from the town and from memory, the iron/metal production was one of the major economic factors throughout the town's history. One important part of the old town is famously called "Eisenmarkt" (iron market). While there are quite a few refrences to wine production around Wetzlar and the Lahntal, I have not found anything significant that would suggest that it should be the raw good produced there.
The wikipedia articles on both Wetzlar and the History of Wetzlar (Geschichte der Stadt Wetzlar) name the iron production in the late middle ages extensively while wine is not mentioned once.
Furthermore, there is an article by a historian from Marburg that expands on this a bit:

Dieser politischen Emanzipation entsprach in wirtschaftlicher Hinsicht eine rasche Entfaltung von Gewerbe und Handel. Die Wetzlarer Wirtschaftsstruktur war in der Mitte des 14. Jahrhunderts voll ausgebildet". Aus den Handwerken Gewandmacher, Brauer, Bäcker, Schuhmacher, Metzger, Schneider und Schmiede entstanden in diesem Zeitraum eigene Zunftorganisationen, die nach vorausgegangenen Zwistigkeiten im Jahr 1357 eine stärkere Beteiligung der Handwerker am Rat erzielen konnten und damit ihre emgene einflußreiche Stellung in der Stadt unterstrichen. Die wichtigsten Gewerbe waren die Wollweberei und die Metallverarbeitung, wobei durch die Zugehörigkeit Wetzlars zum Bereich der mittelrheinischen Tuchproduktion das Wollenmberhandwerk die dominierende Steilung im Wetzlarer Außenhandel einnahm.
- "Wetzlar - die benachbarte Reichsstadt", Eva-Marie Felschow

The passage itself refers to an article "Studien zur wirtschaftlichen Entwicklung Wetzlars im Spätmittelalter" (can't link to it) which sadly isn't available online (only in the town library).
It names wool weaving and metal processing as the major industries, with wool weaving taking principal importance in outside trade. I have found no refrences highlighting a significant production of raw wool originating within the town itself, but the opposite is true for iron production, so it seems very likely that the success of the metall industries was tightly connected to the local sourcing of iron especially.

 

[Kreenetic]

I am not exactely sure that representing the Austrian core lands only through their spoken dialect is a very fitting choice. The earliest sources I've read about that mention a seperate [Upper/Lower] Austrian identity from Bavarians go back to the 12th century.
From Thomas Winkelbauer's Geschichte Österreichs (p79): "Sehr früh setzte tatsächlich im Machtbereich der Babenberger an der Donau ein Prozess der Landeswerdung ein. Die kurz vor 1140 verfasste Vita des Passauer Reformbischofs Altman zeugt bereits von einem ausgeprägtem eigenständigen Bewusstsein der Markbevölkerung, von einer Identität, die nicht mehr die bayerische ist, sondern die des Ostlandes..."
To translate: "The process of developing a sense of stateship started urprisingly early in the realm of the Babenberger along the Danube. The Vita of the Bishop Altman from Passau written shortly before 1140 already talks about a distinctly independent identity of the people of the March, an identity, which isn't the Bavarian one, but the one of the Eastern realm..."

This specifically talks about the people of Upper and Lower Austria, which are culturally the closest to Bavarians, with Styrians, Tyroleans and Carinthians being even more removed from them.

 

[Teekesslchen]

Ah, the Holy Roman Empire. What a beautiful mess. And finally a region where I can offer some feedback on! I notice a couple of mistakes in Austria - some towns seem to be confused about which side of the Danube they should be on, for instance - and I have plenty of suggestions for improvement.

I will preface this by saying that all the information below is a mix of the kind of knowledge you accumulate as a local, some Googling, and some maps whose accuracy I can't verify, so please take my suggestions with a Salzburg's worth of salt. That being said, let's help those towns across the Danube, shall we?

Spoiler: Locations and Provinces

Lower Austria:

• Ober dem Manhartsberg:
  • Move Melk south across the Danube into Ober dem Wienerwald (more on that below) and replace with Ysper. Resource for Ysper is Fruit (representing the Wachau apricots).
  • Move Tulln south across the Danube into Ober dem Wienerwald (more on that below) and replace with Stockerau. Since there is no obvious replacement for Tulln in this precise area, I suggest extending the current Location's borders slightly to the east into Korneuburg to include Stockerau - which, conventiently, is the last semi-significant town in this area not already represented by as a Location. Should be Flatland, Forest, possibly with Wine.
  • Move the Location that is currently named Tulln to Unter dem Manhartsberg. It's currently in the wrong province.
  • Waidhofen an der Thaya's name can be shortened to Waidhofen as long as Waidhofen an der Ybbs isn't also added as a Location (which, to be fair, I'll be adding as another suggestion further downthreat).

• Unter dem Wienerwald: This is my home area, so expect way too many words on how to rework it.
  • Rename to Ober dem Wienerwald. You got your Viertel mixed up there.
  • Replace Grafendorf with Melk. As already mentioned, Melk should be on the south side of the Danube and Grafendorf is, as far as I can tell, not too important to replace. Note that you'll need to cut off the westernmost corner of St. Pölten and give it to this new Melk, because that is Melk's approximate location. Resource for Melk should still be Fruit (those delicious Wachau apricots again).
  • Remove Purkersdorf. Replace it and the eastern part of St. Pölten's current Location with two new Locations: Tulln (Flatlands, perhaps Farmlands, any agricultural good such as Wheat or Legumes; located in a fairly narrow band along the Danube between Vienna and St. Pölten) and Neulengbach (Hills, Forest, either Lumber or Wine; directly to the south of Tulln and sandwiched inbetween it, Wien, Baden, Lilienfeld, and St. Pölten. Neulengbach could easily 'eat' the eastern parts of St. Pölten and the western parts of Baden to represent the entire Wienerwald area.
    • To explain my reasoning: Tulln is surrounded by a very distinctive flatlands area, the Tullnerfeld, which is bordered to the north by the Danube and to the south by the hills of the Wienerwald. In order to represent this distinction in the game, it's not enough to just rename Purkersdorf to Tulln. Note that this distinction has the added benefit of extending Vienna's control along the Danube while blocking its control through the Hills, which has the nice effect of focusing Vienna's attention on that all-important river while also providing a buffer between Vienna and St. Pölten. Finally, Purkersdorf isn't my favourite choice to represent the Wienerwald area as it is too much in the orbit of Vienna. Neulengbach, on the other hand, was formerly the seat of the "Herren von Lengbach" (extinct by 1337) who were important for extending Babenberger's control into the difficult to control Wienerwald.

• Ober dem Manhartsberg, Unter dem Manhartsberg & Ober dem Wienerwald are all historically accurate names, but they're also quite the mouthful. You might rename them to the shortened versions Ober-Manhartsberg, Unter-Manhartsberg, and Ober-Wienerwald. All three became offical names for these Provinces in the 18th century, though I can't say how long they'd been in use before that.
  • It's difficult to make out on the map, but all three Province names should start with "Ober/Unter dem". The map might say "Ober/Unter der", although I'm not sure.

• Amstetten:
  • Move Mariazell to Mürztal. It should be in Styria, not Lower Austria. Replace with Waidhofen an der Ybbs. Note that Waidhofen is actually located in that southern 'arm' of Amstetten's current territory, so you'll have to redraw the borders a bit.
  • I'm unsure why Amstetten is it's own Province. Unless there's a historical reason I'm not aware of, I suggest folding it into Ober dem Wienerwald. If you are just trying to limit the number of Locations in one Province, I suggest splitting off Tulln, Neulengbach, and perhaps St. Pölten and/or Lilienfeld into a Province called Wienerwald. I don't think there's any administrative precedent for that, but it would be a more natural division of the area's geography.

Upper Austria:

• Mühlviadl:
  • Rename to Mühlviertel. The current spelling is an approximation of local dialect, not a correct spelling (now or historically).
  • Move Linz south across the Danube into what is now Wels (more on that below). Replace it with Leonfelden. This would probably be the most notable town in the region, particularly important as a market town linking Linz to Bohemia and eventually a key garrison of the Hussite Wars.

• Traungau: Remove Lambach. It's location is odd, as it should be to the southwest of Wels and isn't part of Traungau/modern Traunviertel. And as I will explain momentarily, moving Linz to its correct location doesn't leave much room in this area.

• 'Grafschaft':
  • The name must be a mistake, as it just means "County". Judging from its shape, I assume it should be Schaunberg (the Grafschaft Schaunberg).
  • Add Linz. This creates some problems with space and Province borders: from the maps I have found, Linz should be part of Schaunberg but today it is part of the Traunviertel (the modern name for the Traungau), so it might fit in either Province. This would require some more research. I see two options:
    • Add Linz to the Traungaun and extend its territory eastward along the Danube to border Amstetten. Then absorb the rest of what used to be Lambach into Kirchdorf and Gmunden. This leaves room in Schaunberg for a decently sized Wels. You might even add Eferding, which is a fairly important town to the west of Linz (perhaps replacing the in my opinion less significant Grieskirchen in the process).
    • Add Linz to Schaunberg and extend its territory westward along the Danube to include the area that could otherwise be Eferding. In that case Grieskirchen will probably have to be divided up between the more significant Linz and Wels or the Province will get cramped. This would leave room to add Enns as a Location to the east between Linz and Amstetten, essentially replacing most of Lambach.
    • Of course, you might add Eferding and/or Enns either way, if you're willing to increase the Location density even further.

Steiermark:

• Hartberg & Fürstenfeld: Add Hartberg as Location. The Province of Hartberg currently does not contain Hartberg as a Location. Alternatively, you could rename the Province to Fürstenfeld, which is already on the map. However, both towns are important enough to add Hartberg in approx. the northern half of what is now Fürstenfeld.
  • Alternatively, the Province corresponds roughly with the cultural and geographic region known as Oststeiermark, which could be considered as an alternative name for the Province.

• Styria:
  • Should be included in the Steiermark Area.
  • Rename to Untersteiermark (Spodnja Štajerska/Lower Styria when not held by German-speaking culture). Lower Styria/Slovenian Styria should not just be called 'Styria' when the word can also refer to the larger region.
  • Add Pettau (Ptuj). The Province could use a higher Location density.
  • Rename Maribor to Marburg while held by German-speaking culture.

• Leibnitz:
  • I am unclear why the Province is named Leibnitz. Unless there is a historical reason I'm not aware of, I suggest renaming it. A few suggestions: Weststeiermark (a geographic term, not an administrative division and I believe fairly modern but also handily descriptive), An der Mur (from the medieval "Mark an der Mur", though by 1337 the name is likely out of date), Graz (simply name the whole thing after the capital), or Steiermark (considering this is the core territory of the Duchy, I believe this is the one province that can simply be called "Styria").
  • Add Lonsperg. Leibnitz currently divided Middle Styria from Celje, but I believe the Styrian dukes held lands to its west. Adding a location under Styrian (i.e. Austrian) control to the west of Leibnitz would remedy that.
  • Move Leoben out of the Province. More on that in a moment.

• Lungau:
  • While I'm not firm on the historical division in the area, I believe the position of Lungau is inaccurate. Lungau is a region in Salzburg (around Tamsweg) and from the - admittedly fairly superficial - bit of reading I've just done, I have no reason to believe that would have been different in 1337. The only thing I have found is maps of the Duchy of Styria labelling the Murau area as part of Lungau, but certainly not Judenburg and further in. Therefore, I have the following suggestions:
    • Add Province called Murtal containing Judenburg, Leoben, and Pölstal. Murtal is a geographic region and not an administrative unit (at least historically), but I think it works quite well to represent the Grafschaften of Judenburg and Leoben and its consistent with other Province names in the region.
    • Add Province called Lungau containing Tamsweg (currently in Pongau), Murau, and Oberwölz. The only problem here is that it might mess up the Area divides between Salzburg and Steiermark.
    • Alternatively, all of these Locations (minus Tamsweg) could form the Province of Murtal, which has the benefit of separating Steiermark and Salzburg as distinct Areas.
  • Change shape of Oberwölz and Murau to extend Murau farther to the southwest. Essentially, Oberwölz should not have a border to Friesach and Feldkirchen since it is located to the northeast of Murau.

Spoiler: Resources and Starting Buildings

• Bruck an der Leitha: Add quarry building, if such a thing exists. The area includes the Hundsheimer Berge which is home to a major quarry going back to Roman times, though that's probably not enough to add Stone as the major Resource.
• Gänserndorf: Includes the Marchfeld, famous as "Vienna's granary". Consider making it Farmlands with an agricultural good (Wheat or Legumes perhaps).
• Liezen: Should start with scriptorium, monastic library, or a similar building, if possible, to represent the famous library of Admont Abbey (which, fun fact, today is the largest monastic library in the world).
• Leoben: Absolutely must have Iron. Its territory includes the Erzberg (literally "Ore Mountain"), which to this day is about as bountiful a source of iron ore as the name suggests. Seriously, I can't even imagine how much of Styria's early wealth came entirely from the Erzberg. It was already the heart of Styria's iron industry in the Middle Ages, so it would be appropriate if it could start with buildings representing working ore and iron (smelters, foundries, smithies, etc.).
• Mariazell: Should start with appropriate clerical buildings. The Basilica of Mariazell is Austria's most popular pilgrimage site, which would be nice to represent with an appropriate building empowering the local Clergy.
• Pölstal: Historically significant for silver-mining. Unless there is good evidence for keeping Alum, perhaps consider Silver.
• Unter dem Manhartsberg: Needs more Locations with Wine. The region is today known as Weinviertel (literally "Wine Quarter" - are you picking up how literal Austrian naming conventions can be?) and is the country's largest wine-producing region. I haven't been able to find any information of which Locations would be most appropriate for 1337, but judging from modern cultivation I would suggest Korneuburg and Mistelbach.

 

[NK003]

Regarding the Location "Stormarn" if These are Named after their most Important cities it should be Oldesloe -> in this timeline around 5k of the 40k live there and made it the biggest city (historically most inportant, bc of trade between Hamburg and Lübeck" )or "Ahrendsburg" currently most important but not biggest town. (U named this Location Ahrendsburg in CK3).

Furthermore i would suggest to change the tradegood from wool to Salt, in the middleages was a not insignificant salination in Oldesloe which contributet to the regions wealth. It was destroyed in the 18 hundreds by the chief of Lauenburg. But until then it had a significant salination. Also the tradegood of Lauenburg should then be Salt too , to fit the rivalry between the cities. The salination works of Lauenburg are also now adays visible on Display in the City.

I would also just Renate the province (the state) from "Stormarn Gau" to just Stormarn. Its historically more fitting. I come from this Region and read about my town in my local library and historically Museum. U can also read more about the salination on Wikepedia.

Also the location Güstrow is missing its " in the u =)

And i i think that the province of Stralsund should be renamed to Rostock, as Rostock as a Hanseatic City in that time was the most important City and was key in influencing and developing the Region. It still remains today as the biggest City in the state.

The location of Eisenberg should also be named "Saalfeld" to fit more with the flow of that time. Saalfeld Was the biggest town in that Region at that time , it was founded as a trading City on the Route of Nuremberg to Erfurt as a safety Spot for travelers by the ruler of the holy roman empire (i think charles) to protect the people.
It hat a big salte mine wich u can now a days Visit , i saw these and was told there that the slate Produktion influenced the whole Region, so it should be stone not wool i think. The lines in which the stone was transportet are also visible now adays.

One last question as im from the state of Holstein. Whats with our beloved island Helgoland ? Its missing =( IT was something like a pirate cove. Or just island in a location like the one danish before sweden. Would be cool to add it , but its Population was around 100 so its not really siginificant on the larger scale.

 

[Citizen Caen]

Tinto team I kneel

You guys are making something incredible!

 

[Zaragoza]

@Pavía Some ideas:

• Could Tarasp be split to better model the Swiss-Austrian border developments? Tarasp was an exclave with the Lower Enganine and the Ten Jurisdictions being contested later to connect/disconnect them from Voralberg.
• Why is there a silver mine in what seems to be Sterzing rather than in Schwaz?
• Maybe we could get Hall in Tyrol squeezed in the map? it was key role in silver and salt trade and the seat of a mint.
• I may have not located the area, but there should be some lead mining in Carinthia (around Villach or Bad Bleiberg) see https://www.mindat.org/loc-235.html
• Maybe we can get some location(s) squeezed between Sopron and Austria to be able to get the later Treaty of Wiener Neustadt? They should be Hungarian at the start date
• Not necessarily wrong , but it seems you have more stone producing locations than iron producing locations in Styria's Iron Belt (Eisenwurzen). Are you sure of all of them?
• I also had expected more salt producing location in Salzkammergut (split between Austria and Bavaria)
• I appreciate you having separated Ferrette and Habsburg older Sundgau area (more or less I'd associated the area in your map to Landvogtei Unterelsass). To get an equal level of detail in north Alsace, could we have the Ortenau Landvogtei to the north (so Strasbourg Bishopships gets a bit smaller).
• Maybe Lindau should replace one of the two small locations in the area whose names I can't read in the capture?
• No silver mine in Joachimsthal? You seem to have located a gold mine there, but as far as I know it was a silver producing area

Some doubts and questions:

• Konstanz does represent the Bishopship or the Imperial City?
• Is there any content regarding the Valtellina strategic pass? I see you have allocated two locations for the area.
• Will there be any content regarding wine history in Freiburg?
• Any events regarding Egerland/Cheb? Got to be bohemian a bit before the game start but still got some times to fully intagrate
• Do you intent to model somehow the Lusatian League? Swiss leagues can work well as international organization but that would be at subnational level
• Would we have a Alsatian Decapolis or would that require too small tags?

 

[normalman6]

i think the marshland here should be represented somehow as they were were very present at this time with both Großes moor (sadly am not allowed to link stuff) and Drömling dominating the local land scape in that time

second i find the choice of derlingau genuinely confusing not that it isnt a semi accurate choice but i do think taht by this point this area is probably better called braunschweig or ostfahlen since the eastfalian cultural center should be in brauschweig by this point

 

[Zaragoza]

And... is there any update regarding river navigation?

There are some interesting routes there (Rhin, Elbe, Danube, Oder...), with some historical cannals (like this) to connect them for trade purposes.

 

[Pentabyte]

Oh boy, the problem with Baden. After giving some info on Basel, I want to add some ideas and corrections for the oberrhein region. Since I am from the town of Baden-Baden in Baden which is named only and correctly Baden on your map (the double name only came up later, but maybe a stupid idea for an achievement as it tranlsates to bathing-bathing in bathing), I learned about the feud between Baden and Swabia first hand. Basically badenese people don't like swabaians, and most swabians don't even know or care about that and some are not even aware baden exists lol.
(Not that I want to be a part of this feud.)
However this is a thing that only manifested itself properly in the 19th century in part as planned political propaganda. So good thing you didn't name westswabia just Baden, because that identity didn't form until much later. However I would also not consider it correct to name it westswabia, but rather add all provinces along the rhine to the oberrhein region which seems severely misplaced on your map in comparison to any geographical descriptions of that region I could find.

P1

Many things in the modern region of Baden are called oberrhein-this and that (Like oberrhein-school or oberrhein-gymnasium). The name "oberrhein" usually corresponds to the depression between the black forest and the vosges almost all the way up to frankfurt.

P2

South of the black forest up to lake constance is then considered the Hochrhein (s. P1). If you don't want to change too much you could change westwabia to the region of the black forest minus a few provinces to the east and make eastswabia just swabia. Then the region would basically mirror the region of alsace being more or less the vosges on the other side of the Rhine. But if so please find a better naming for the region considered oberrhein on your map. The odenwald is in that region (s. P1), that might be a consideration, but I am not too familiar with that area, maybe someone else can add some thoughts.

While the feud is a fairly modern thing there is some truth to differences: culturally the modern region of Baden is much closer to Alsace and northern Switzerland as well as the region around lake constance than to swabia. Which I think you represented well through the allemanic culture groups, which I think you have based of the modern maps of the alemmanic dialect group. One minor detail to add is that the location of Baden is definitely still considered (upper-)rhenic allemanic today. The split to (south)-Franconian is around Karlsruhe, corresponding to the location of Durlach on your map (s. P3).

P3

Maps describing older expanses of alemmanic also still consider durlach part of it, while franconian migrated South in more modern times (s. P4).

To summarize my suggestions:

- rename westwabia to oberrhein and make it slimmer on the east and include alsace on the west. Add Hochrhein region in-between Basel and lake constance. Change oberrhein to odenwald or another suitable name.

Or

- rename westswabia to black forest. Make it slimmer on the east. Add Hochrhein region and odenwald as described above.

And

- Include Baden and Durlach in the rhenic allemannic culture groups, maybe add some Franconian minorities in durlach or north of it.

Edit: as some people already commented on the oberrhein problem and location and want to place it further north, maybe the black forest idea would be better suited

 

[Clemi09]

Sorry I needed to remove my links because i dont post in this Forum and my post got flaged as spam.

Nice Maps!
I normally dont reply to the Tinto Maps because its not my Area of expertise. But since I live in Hamelin I think I can at least contribute to one Location on the Map.
In my Opinion the Topography of the Location of Hameln should not be Flatland but Hills (probably the Locations to the south aswell).
As you can see in this Map

(sorry its in German) there are Hills around Hamelin that are up to 500m tall.
Every location to the north of the Weser Uplands (there is a Wikipedia article for the Weser Uplands but i cant post links) should (as shown in the Topography Map) be Flatlands (since the Land was flattened when the last Glaciers receded).
Here is a nice Foto of Hamelin:

as you can see in the Picture Hamelin is basically surrounded by Hills. Only the Areas that are next to the Weser are flat.
Here are more Pictures of my beautiful City:

If 400-500m tall Hills are not considered Hills in PC I think there should be a new classification for the Topogaraphy rolling and rugged Hills like its described in this Post (i would have liked to post the link to the post but i cant but its called "revising flatlands and hills a simple solution and a better methodology").

I sadly could not find a source for the Population of Hamelin an its surrounding villages. But as described here (unfortunately no link here either) the City had around 2000 Citizens in 1344 (in some other History Books about the City the founding Population in 1277 was 2000-2500 People. So the Number in 1344 is probably an underestimation) with around 5% of the population being Jewish. So the Population of 68365 in game is probably to high even if you include the surrounding villages, but maybe there is someone with more information in this Forum since i only looked at history books about Hamelin.

Thank you for reading my Post and sorry for my bad English.

 

[ShyGuy13]

I would like to suggest you to reconsider your province naming in Germany due to two reasons:

Many of the province names end on -gau. These are based on the medieval Gaugrafschaften which were established in the early Middle Ages when the Merovingians and Carolingians were ruling in Germany. These semi-hereditary Gaugrafschaften continued to exist within the early HRE for a while. There is a map of 1000 showing the individual Gaugrafschaften. The Gaugrafschaften started to become fully hereditary during the 12th and 13th centuries when proper county titles were replacing these old offices.

When the Gaugrafschaften ceased to exist in the high Middle Ages, many of their names stopped being used and just became a relic of the Frankish rule. Sure, there are a few -gaus still being known nowadays (like Breisgau or Allgäu) but many -gaus are feeling very niche to me.

Since the game will be set in the late Middle Ages and early Modern Age, I think using terms from the early Middle Ages which were lost in history during the high Middle Ages feels very unfitting to me. This naming is probably better suited for CK3 than this game.

The second reason is that the province naming feels a bit inconsistent across Germany to me. Currently, they are named after Gaugrafschaften, margraviates, mountains, landscapes & cities. Mixing up political entities like Gaugrafschaften or margraviates with geographic terms appears to be a little arbitrary to me. I think consistently sticking to geographic terms across Germany and replacing the Gaugrafschaften and margraviates would be a better solution than now, making the province naming more consistent and timeless.

 

[normalman6]

The areas of much of Germany in 1337 being named after mostly artificial post-1945 German federal states looks incredibly odd.

it does look very wierd

 

[Dr_Spleen]

Oh boy, the problem with Baden. After giving some info on Basel, I want to add some ideas and corrections for the oberrhein region. Since I am from the town of Baden-Baden in Baden which is named only and correctly Baden on your map (the double name only came up later, but maybe a stupid idea for an achievement as it tranlsates to bathing-bathing in bathing), I learned about the feud between Baden and Swabia first hand. Basically badenese people don't like swabaians, and most swabians don't even know or care about that and some are not even aware baden exists lol.
(Not that I want to be a part of this feud.)
However this is a thing that only manifested itself properly in the 19th century in part as planned political propaganda. So good thing you didn't name westswabia just Baden, because that identity didn't form until much later. However I would also not consider it correct to name it westswabia, but rather add all provinces along the rhine to the oberrhein region which seems severely misplaced on your map in comparison to any geographical descriptions of that region I could find.

View attachment 1168288
P1

Many things in the modern region of Baden are called oberrhein-this and that (Like oberrhein-school or oberrhein-gymnasium). The name "oberrhein" usually corresponds to the depression between the black forest and the vosges almost all the way up to frankfurt.

View attachment 1168289
P2

South of the black forest up to lake constance is then considered the Hochrhein (s. P1). If you don't want to change too much you could change westwabia to the region of the black forest minus a few provinces to the east and make eastswabia just swabia. Then the region would basically mirror the region of alsace being more or less the vosges on the other side of the Rhine. But if so please find a better naming for the region considered oberrhein on your map. The odenwald is in that region (s. P1), that might be a consideration, but I am not too familiar with that area, maybe someone else can add some thoughts.

While the feud is a fairly modern thing there is some truth to differences: culturally the modern region of Baden is much closer to Alsace and northern Switzerland as well as the region around lake constance than to swabia. Which I think you represented well through the allemanic culture groups, which I think you have based of the modern maps of the alemmanic dialect group. One minor detail to add is that the location of Baden is definitely still considered (upper-)rhenic allemanic today. The split to (south)-Franconian is around Karlsruhe, corresponding to the location of Durlach on your map (s. P3).
View attachment 1168290
P3

Maps describing older expanses of alemmanic also still consider durlach part of it, while franconian migrated South in more modern times (s. P4).
View attachment 1168291

To summarize my suggestions:

- rename westwabia to oberrhein and make it slimmer on the east and include alsace on the west. Add Hochrhein region in-between Basel and lake constance. Change oberrhein to odenwald or another suitable name.

Or

- rename westswabia to black forest. Make it slimmer on the east. Add Hochrhein region and odenwald as described above.

And

- Include Baden and Durlach in the rhenic allemannic culture groups, maybe add some Franconian minorities in durlach or north of it.

Edit: as some people already commented on the oberrhein problem and location and want to place it further north, maybe the black forest idea would be better suited

As this post said and another before that, you should really consider expanding the east Swabian area to the west an just name it Swabia. Regarding the black forest it could get to granular; but most of the stuff that is now Baden should be in some kind of Oberrhein area.

IIRC there is no wool trade good right? Because the eastern Swabian alb to around Augsburg was a huge fabric producer from the Roman times untill nearly today. Could this be represented through more Livestock perhaps? The main source for fabrics there should probably be sheep.

 

[Pavel.czv]

1) What is the difference between markish and brandenburgisch, as far as i know, markish refers to people of the Mark of Brandenburg.
2) The area of Saxony should be slightly larger, I would base it on the 1648 borders of Saxony or older without Lusatia, Lusatia should be a separate area.

3) I complained about this in the Hungary map and since this map has the same issue i will complain again. There is a continuous line of mountains/hills going from northwestern Slovakia to southwestern Slovakia. There should be no gap of plains there.

4) Moravia needs a few changes to location terrain and borders. The black line is the current day border between the Czech Republic and Austria. I believe there were territorial changes in the southeastern parts of Bohemia after ww1, this can be seen when comparing pre ww1 Austrian maps and modern ones, the red line should represent the pre ww1 border which remained nearly unchanged since the 13th century.

The land in red circles should be hilly terrain and the land in blue circles should be plains.

5) Jihlava should have a silver mine, it was an important medieval silver mine before Kutná Hora. The legend about Jihlava founding is about a potter whose pottery keep breaking because of some silver earth, that sould be enough to give it silver rgo.

6) Southern Bohemia should have some lumber and also have events for one location to change over to fish production in the 16th century, representing the Třeboňsko ponds. The Bohemian side of the border seems to be lacking in dense forests compared to the German side which was not the case back then, also some of those border provinces in Bohemia itself should be changed to mountains. The mountain locations in Šumava should be moved from the German side of the border to the Bohemian side of the border.

7) Polabí - Elbe/Labe valley should have more grain and less lumber, there also seems to be a lack of coal in Bohemia and Moravia.

 

[Silver_Falcon]

Some notes on Alsace, from most to least important:

1. In the province map, Upper and Lower Alsace are incorrectly labeled (their names refer to elevation, not cardinal directions!).
2. Why does Austria own Haguenau? As far as I'm aware, Haguenau should be a Free City by 1337. If it's because of the Imperial Landvogt that was established in the city by Rudolph I von Habsburg, then this location should arguably go to Upper Bavaria (please don't though) as the landvogts were appointed by the Holy Roman Emperors after Louis the Bavarian's ascension.
3. Similarly, the people of Strasbourg revolted against the Prince-Bishopric of Strasbourg in the late 13th Century, and were likewise granted Imperial recognition and became a Free City (the seat of the Bishopric, to my knowledge, moved to Saverne/Zabern). The Bishopric did still maintain a claim to the city, which caused no shortage of tensions between the two, but under the protection of the Holy Roman Emperors the Free City of Strasbourg remained independent even after Louis XIV's annexation of Alsace in the Peace of Westphalia, until its ultimate conquest later in the 17th Century. Given the precedent established with the Baltic maps that two tags can share the same name, I don't see why the Free City of Strasbourg and the Prince-Bishopric of Strasbourg couldn't be split.
4. I believe Colmar and Mulhouse should also be Free Cities by 1337, but I'm less familiar with these.
5. If it's at all possible to include (understanding that you've already packed about as many locations into this region as possible), the Prince-Bishopric of Strasbourg did possess a narrow strip of land along the foot of the Vosges in Upper Alsace (Lower Alsace on your map), from Eguisheim (just south of Colmar) in the north down to Seltz in the south. These lands were inherited from the Counts of Eguisheim following the extinction of this dynasty in 1225, and might help to make up for the loss of Strasbourg in terms of the regional balance of power.
6. I don't know how accurate it is to show the County of Lichtenberg as a part of the Prince-Bishopric of Alsace, but I can live with it.
7. I'm not as opposed to Austria owning Murbach as I am their control over Haguenau, as they did have pretty significant influence over the Abbey-Principality of Murbach. Nevertheless, I do think it would be neat to see the Princess-Abbesses of the Holy Roman Empire represented somehow.

Louis Laguille's Histoire de la Province d'Alsace (1727), which I'm currently trying to translate, is probably one of the more authoritative sources on Alsatian history. Unfortunately, while I'd like to point to a specific page for each of these claims, I still haven't gotten to the relevant sections of this book. Nevertheless, if you happen to have someone in the studio that can read early modern French, the book is available for free through Google Books. Alternatively, I could also make a forum post once I've completed the relevant sections (in about a month, probably), if you'd prefer.