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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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I really appreciate the vast amount of playable countries in the HRE and I am especially happy to see tags like Wangen, Kempten, Sonthofen and Horb, Urach, Stuttgart.

It is clear that Paradox Tinto cannot take every little nation into account. Nevertheless, I want to bring two free cities in the HRE to mind which do have a rich history and very interesting historical sights up to this day.

Isny im Allgäu:
Isny is the neighbouring town of Wangen and located between Wangen and Kempten. It was founded in the year 1043, gained its market rights at the end of the 12th century an became a city in 1281. In 1365 the people of Isny bought the rights to an imperial city from their bailiff, the trustee of Waldburg. In 1376 the city took part in the founding of the Swabian League of Cities. In 1507 the city acquired the right to mint. Isny joined the reformation early and comprehensively and the conflict between the Protestant imperial city and the Catholic monastery has shaped Isny's history.
Today one of the hidden historical sights of Isny is the Preachers Library. To date, it is the only foundation library from the Middle Ages that has been preserved in its original condition.
Valuable manuscripts and cradle prints from the period after the invention of book printing (1450 to 1500) are stacked on the shelves.

Esslingen am Neckar:
Esslingen is close to Stuttgart and located between Stuttgart and Göppingen. First mentioned in documents in the 8th century, Esslingen had been a free imperial city since 1181. Esslingen has a very eventful history, which was marked by disputes with the people of Württemberg, the Reformation and the 30 Years' War.
Today one can visit one of the oldest surviving half-timbered houses in Germany, built in 1266/67 or the oldest continuous row of half-timbered houses in Germany, built between 1328 and 1331.

I hope I could pitch the idea of bringing those two wonderful cities into the game. ;-)
 
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I hoped to see the Habsburg-Laufenburgs in Switzerland who were major landowners until the Habsburgs lost most of their Swiss holdings in 1380s-90s.


1722366286688.png

They are the light pink in this map.
 
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East Frisia had not seperated from the rest of friesland yet. And they mostly operated under the same logic.

The only reason why things changed was because of the Great Frisian War which would not happen till 1413.
ah sorry in my research of east frisia i literally NEVER stumbled upon the great frisian war. however wouldn't a disaster for the frisian freedom make sense then which splits it apart into east frisia and friesland?
 
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As others have already pointed out, the current populations in the Austrian and Swiss Alps are significantly larger than they reasonably should be. In fact, the mountainous Tyrol, Vorarlberg, and Eastern Switzerland have population densities that far exceed those of the fertile lowland areas - the opposite of what might be expected.

Oddly enough, the issue seems to be concentrated on the Alps specifically. Note, for instance, how the population in the country of Salzburg rapidly increases when you move from the northern lowlands into the mountains. Somehow an insignificant hovel like Salzburg (17.7k) dares to rule over the mighty mountain metropolis of Mittersill (66k), which is home to the combined population of Prague (22k) and Berlin (43k). Further to the southwest, the average Tyrolean Location is the size of a major Hanseatic port city and even remote mountain valleys exceed the population of Graz (12.4k), which today is Austria's second largest city. My favourite outlier is Feldkirchen, whose 131k people dwarf Vienna (111k), all of Middlesex combined (123k), and indeed the modern district of Feldkirchen (111.6k).

For comparison, I have found some very detailed reports compiled by the ÖAW (the Austrian Academy of Sciences) on historical demographics in Austria. Let's contrast the numbers for some Locations that stood out to me:

--Project Caesar PopulationModern Population (Wikipedia)ÖAW Population Estimate
Tyrol (total)482k771k (+532k in South Tyrol)13-70k
Vorarlberg (total)201k406k (+40k in Liechtenstein)3.8-20k
Feldkirchen131k111.6k1.6k men fit for military service (1511)
Galtür (=Landeck)34k44k3k* (1427); 10.2k (1594)
Imst43k62.4k3.2k* (1427); 9.6k (1602)
Lienz69.5k48.8k4.6k (1605)
Tamsweg56.6k20.4k8.6k (1541)
Zell am Ziller47.3k35.5k3.6k* (1350)

*Several ÖAW estimates are given in number of farmhouses. As suggested elsewhere in the document, the average population per farmhouse is 5, which is how I have calculated the final number. Note that this is my own extrapolation and could easily be an undercount as later population estimates tend to be significantly higher than normal growth would suggest (see e.g. Galtür). That is why in those cases I have given the next best population estimate as well.

As you can see, the Locations I picked don't just regularly have populations that are an order of magnitude larger than the historical estimates, some of them even exceed modern population numbers. And these Locations aren't just cherrypicked to make a point, they are simply some of the bigger Locations I noticed in the area. I hope the team can go back over the area (and, as others have pointed out, other parts of the HRE) and implement a major revision of population values. Perhaps the ÖAW resources I posted will help with that, as well.

Otherwise I'll have no choice but to conquer the world with the full might of Feldkirchen.
 
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I know this is about Germany, but at the time the lowlands were also part of the HRE. So I will just go on with this story:

I love that you added Amersfoort next to Utrecht in the low lands.
Only thing that is lacking is to make Amersfoort and Utrecht into the Province of Utrecht instead of being part of the province of North Holland.

In the 14th century Utrecht was still a very important and independent place. It would have never considered itself to be part of North Holland. And in the Netherlands the provinces matter a lot. As the 'gewesten' as they were called got together in 1576 for the pacification of Ghent and in 1579 for the Union of Utrecht. Utrecht signed these treaties together with Holland and Zeeland. As a separate gewest or province.

There is no reason to put them together in 1337 as Utrecht by that time was even stronger as an independent province, which is shown on your map as Utrecht/'t Sticht Utrecht, with the bishop in charge.
 
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A few short opinions from my side:

-Ratzeburg should be in the Holstein region as though in its time as bishopric it was linked to Mecklenburg and Schwerin it was later obtained by the Hamburgian church and after being a bishopric the land was governed over by the dukes of Saxe-Lauenburg, which was is in game a part of Holstein.

-That brings me to the next point, I think the region of Pommern should at least be divided into Mecklenburg and Pommern or even subdivided into Vorpommern and Hinterpommern. I just think the tag of Pommern is a bit too big, concerning what actually is pommerainian land.

-For me personally the biggest point is that Lüneburg should be producing salt as a main ressource. The city had and still has a vast amount of mineshafts and tunnels sitting directly underneath the oldtown (The old houses are litterally sinking into the ground because of the old tunnel structures giving in after a few hundred years of service). It would also serve for Lüneburg being a part of the Hanse - that is if trade worth is in correlation with the goods produced.

As always, thank you for the update, I always love hearing from you!
 
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I hoped to see the Habsburg-Laufenburgs in Switzerland who were major landowners until the Habsburgs lost most of their Swiss holdings in 1380s-90s.


View attachment 1169944
They are the light pink in this map.
They also owned the County of Klettgau which actually never passed to the main Habsburgs after the Habsburg-Laufenburgs died out.
 
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I'm not sure if anyone has posted about this before, but there's a number of non-Catholic heretical sects still lurking around the region in 1337.

  • The Beghards and Beguines are in decline, but probably still holding on in the Low Countries
  • The Brethren of the Free Spirit are popular in Western Germany and the Low Countries, flourishing in cities like Bern, Basel, Cambrai, Brussels and Cologne
  • The Friends of God run in roughly the same regions of Germany as the Brethren, but their reach doesn't extend to the Low Countries
  • The Apostolici still survive in isolated pockets
  • The Flagellants are popular everywhere from England to Germany to Hungary, but they haven't been condemned by papal bull just yet. Especially noteworthy is Konrad Schmid's messianic sect claiming to be Emperor Frederick II, King of Thuringia
There's a few other sects like the Benandanti in Friulia, Men of Understanding in the Netherlands and Strigolniki in Russia who are in their nascent stages, but don't know if this is the right place for it.
 
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The area of the Hägerort (eastern half of the location) was heavily forested and not settled during slavic times, but the forests were cleared in the 13th century. The villages are named for the then already removed forest and are not lumber camps but agrarian. The western part of the location was and is still forested. Vegetation should probably indeed be woods.
Lumber or an agrarian good (sturdy grains, wheat, livestock) should fit as basic good.
Due to the settlement history, this location should probably also have a higher proportion of German vs. Polabian compared to oder rural parts of Mecklenburg.

Proposed part of this earlier myself. I'm not sure about the split of Parchim. The locations are getting quite small already. The current resulting borders are not too bad, and keeping the name Parchim represents that town at least. Parchimn itself was previously ruled by a cadet branch of Werle, and then split between Güstrow and Mecklenburg.

if Bützow is added, it needs to be bigger to reach the minimum size. Maybe attach more of the Wismar area (Sternberg) to it and expand the northern border a bit?
Potentially, this could become the bishopric of Schwerin as a new country.

How about calling it Werle? Most of the locations included were once part of that principality after all.

Historically Tanclam and Anclam were also used, but Anklam is already documented in 1283, so using the modern name is preferable indeed.
I just wanted to let you know, I revised my post and referred to your post. Since I don’t know how to quote you, I‘m replying to your post.
Please let me know, if you have other suggestions.
 
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It's currently thought, based on genetic evidence, that the Ashkenazi population at about this time went through an extremely small bottleneck, having on the order of 300 total individuals at the lowest. After this bottleneck, the population grew very rapidly for the next ~600 years.

So it might be most accurate to have a very small number of Ashkenazim pops at the start of the game, and then to have some mechanisms to encourage rapid natural growth and expansion of communities across Central and Eastern Europe.

I get that this would be hard to model, since we don't quite know why the Ashkenazi community grew so rapidly after the bottleneck and some sort of permanent +X% growth modifier would be abusable. But as is, I don' think having this many Ashkenazim in 1337 is accurate.



See https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835 , for example, or https://www.livescience.com/genetics-medieval-ashkenazi-jews-germany .
Either you are incorrect or the historocal sources are incorrect with labeling the jews in central Europe as Ashkenazi.

Now i dont know enough about your studies nor the genetic-cultural traits of Ashkenzai in oreder to pass a judement one way or the other.

But sourves ive read are with out a doubt saying that there was a significant jewish presence in inner austria (duchies of carinthia, styria and carniola) as early as late 13/early 14 century. Consisting of ~10% populatipn of every town/city in that area.
My own calculations for Duchy of Syria had atleast ~4800 jewish pops in 1350.
And considering the fact that expulsion of jews in mid 15. Century by emperor Maximilan was a big thing, i would argue that is another hint at the real jewissh presence in (inner) austrian lands....
 
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I have several maps/a research doc that might be useful for the entire HRE (save a few regions, which I'll show later down the post)
Ollie Bye (a videomapping Youtuber) has given me permission to share this, it is various documents of research of a "history of the HRE" video that he is working on

The first several, named "cropped-HRE-States[Region]", is a borderpool (a collection of borders different polities had on a map), most of them named, where they themselves/a grouping of them could reflect the locations shown on your map for the project (the images are quite large/detailed)

cropped-HRE-States[GermanySwabia].png

Next is a research doc containing the chronology of the HRE, with sources/maps (a few of them are broken due to Discord embedding) in the Sources/Links tab, and a chronology of events (with >5000 events so far, and explanations/sources for each) in the Chronology tab https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1divV8dW0SHU_UClghMG6eTuDichTz-9AO9kHqxCDiaA/edit?usp=sharing

Third, is an image which shows the research progress that he's made, covering most of the HRE barring some of Swabia, the Rhineland, and most of northwest Italy, which are regions he hasn't covered yet (and thus aren't in the research doc nor the borderpool files)
HRE_Research.png


Lastly, is a map showing Brandenburg in the year 1337, with three main differences over the conventional way Brandenburg is depicted in the 14th century, which are:
• The Dömitz lordship, which was pledged to Brandenburg from 1326-62
• The Altmark, which was dowered to Göttingen in 1323 but sold back 20 years later after it failed to secure control there
• The Wałcz-land, which was partially returned to Poland in 1368
Brandenburg_1337.png


I hope that the team here will take into consideration these maps, as a lot of research (>2 years) has been put into them to make them as accurate as possible
 
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I have several maps/a research doc that might be useful for the entire HRE (save a few regions, which I'll show later down the post)
Ollie Bye (a videomapping Youtuber) has given me permission to share this, it is various documents of research of a "history of the HRE" video that he is working on

The first several, named "cropped-HRE-States[Region]", is a borderpool (a collection of borders different polities had on a map), most of them named, where they themselves/a grouping of them could reflect the locations shown on your map for the project (the images are quite large/detailed)


Next is a research doc containing the chronology of the HRE, with sources/maps (a few of them are broken due to Discord embedding) in the Sources/Links tab, and a chronology of events (with >5000 events so far, and explanations/sources for each) in the Chronology tab https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1divV8dW0SHU_UClghMG6eTuDichTz-9AO9kHqxCDiaA/edit?usp=sharing

Third, is an image which shows the research progress that he's made, covering most of the HRE barring some of Swabia, the Rhineland, and most of northwest Italy, which are regions he hasn't covered yet (and thus aren't in the research doc nor the borderpool files)
View attachment 1170207

Lastly, is a map showing Brandenburg in the year 1337, with three main differences over the conventional way Brandenburg is depicted in the 14th century, which are:
• The Dömitz lordship, which was pledged to Brandenburg from 1326-62
• The Altmark, which was dowered to Göttingen in 1323 but sold back 20 years later after it failed to secure control there
• The Wałcz-land, which was partially returned to Poland in 1368
View attachment 1170208

I hope that the team here will take into consideration these maps, as a lot of research (>2 years) has been put into them to make them as accurate as possible

Maybe this will come in handy.
1722441077682.png
1722442859691.png


Translation: Lož lordship in the period 1220 - 1260 ect. Source: https://zgodovinskicasopis.si/zc/article/download/1178/1505

For Ribnica lordship. https://www.sistory.si/cdn/publikacije/44001-45000/44664/Kronika_2018-3-low.pdf

Most of the literature is in Slovenian, but there are summaries in English and some in German.
 
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Just on the off chance it hasn't been mentioned yet,

Seems like upper and lower alsace should have their names swapped, as the southern part of alsace is physically higher and upstream on the Rhine (as is also the naming scheme for upper- and lower- kärnten, lausitz, saxony, and Egypt).
Also brings things in line with the modern French departments (of upper and lower Rhine).
 
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