Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

[Blauer Dragoner]

Sehr geehrtes Tinto Team,
Ich hätte einen Verbesserungsvorschlag für eine Kultur.
In der Provinz "Bayrischer Wald" wäre die Kultur "Waidlerisch" anstatt" Donau Bayern" besser.
Die Menschen in diesen Gebieten bezeichnen sich nämlich als "Waidler".

Zudem gehört der Standort "Garmisch" zur Provinz "Schongau" . Diesen Standort könnte man in eine eigene Provinz namens "Werdenfelser Land" eingliedern, da das Gebiet, in dem sich "Garmisch" befindet "Werdenfelser Land" heißt.

 

[Mef]

Sehr geehrtes Tinto Team,
Ich hätte einen Verbesserungsvorschlag für eine Kultur.
In der Provinz "Bayrischer Wald" wäre die Kultur "Waidlerisch" anstatt" Donau Bayern" besser.
Die Menschen in diesen Gebieten können sich nämlich als "Waidler" bezeichnen.

A culture for the Bavarian Forest would be like two locations, way too small and unimportant.

 

[Blauer Dragoner]

Eine Kultur für den Bayerischen Wald wäre wie zwei Standorte, viel zu klein und unbedeutend.

Achso, ich dachte nur ich könnte das ergänzen, da ich aus dieser Gegend stamme und vielleicht wäre es relevant.

 

[Chieron]

Sehr geehrtes Tinto Team,
Ich hätte einen Verbesserungsvorschlag für eine Kultur.
In der Provinz "Bayrischer Wald" wäre die Kultur "Waidlerisch" anstatt" Donau Bayern" besser.
Die Menschen in diesen Gebieten bezeichnen sich nämlich als "Waidler".

Zudem gehört der Standort "Garmisch" zur Provinz "Schongau" . Diesen Standort könnte man in eine eigene Provinz namens "Werdenfelser Land" eingliedern, da das Gebiet, in dem sich "Garmisch" befindet "Werdenfelser Land" heißt.

Bavarian and Austrian are currently merged, which is much oversimplified, but creating a new culture for minor locations would be much too fine-grained. Did these people consider themselves sufficiently different from everyone else in 1337 as well? Consider that gameplay-wise, the difference between Waidler culture and Danube Bavarian is equivalent to the one between either and, say, Holsatian.
Similarly, provinces need a certain size to be meaningful (they seem to aim for 3-9 locations usually). A province is not just the name for some piece of land. Some provinces will be ahistorical for gameplay reasons. A one-location-province with a small, low-pop location is just weird.

Lastly, this is an English-only forum, so posts should be in English..

 

[Proterra]

- apparently judged too small
- it isn't, Amersfoort lies in between (and Arnhem includes Ede)
- a question often asked. Why does Apeldoorn exist? Oh, you mean in the game? Was a very popular request in Tinto map of the low countries

I'd argue that Arnhem should take the place of Apeldoorn and Wageningen should take the place of Arnhem really. At the late Middle Ages, Apeldoorn was a tiny village while Wageningen was a city with a castle and a moat.

Also, Nijmegen should be on the Cologne trade node and not the Bruges one. Nijmegen (and perhaps Arnhem as well) was always considered to be a Rhenish Hanseatic city.

 

[dampflande]

Hello dear Tinto-Team,

I recently revisited the dev-diary for Germany and i`ve noticed what i think must be an error: The small county of Berg (near cologe) has the dynasty "von Nassau". In 1337, there should be Duke Adolf VI. in charge, who was a member of house Limburg, a sideline of house Berg (hence the name of the county). The neighboring county mark is also of the same greater dynasty, also ruled by a sideline of house Berg (house "von Mark") which you have done correctly (altough - why the house-name and not the "dynasty" (Berg)?) Would make many things easier i think). To my knowledge there never was a "von Nassau" ruling in Berg.

Furthermore, in 1348, Berg got into a union with the neighboring jülich, henceforth the house of both nations would be called "jülich-berg". Thats because Adolf VI. had no children, which was already clear in 1320 when the sucession was decided, so well before the start of the game. Is there hope there could be an event for this or something like that?
When i`m at it, will we be able to rename our countries (like in ck3 for example)? This could often lead to a more historical map, for example brandenburg-prussia comes to mind (or, you can maybe guess where i live, the glorious duchy of jülich-berg)

 

[Captain Frakas]

(John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty)

As we talk about it, it always disturbs me to read in Paradox Games those “de Luxembourg”, “de Valois”, “de Bourgogne“ alone... The French particle would simply never appear in such circumstances... One would say, write, read, hear: Valois, Luxembourg, Bourgogne. When limiting to the family name, Philippe de Villiers is called “Villiers”, Dominique de Villepin, “Villepin”, the members of the maison de Valois, “les Valois“...

The particle, which is a preposition, only appears when the noun to which the territorial name is related appears too, that is to say after a title, a grade, a form of address, a first name...: la maison de Luxembourg, la famille de Luxembourg, le château de Luxembourg, les princes de Luxembourg, Jean de Luxembourg, monsieur de Luxembourg, le duc de Luxembourg, le général de Luxembourg..., but, without such noun, Luxembourg, les Luxembourg...

That's for French, but I believe that English respects it too, for French names at least, if not for English names too. I don't know for German Names, but we commonly read about the Wittelsbach, about Beethoven, about the Habsburg, not about the “von Wittelsbach”, about “van Beethoven”, about the “von Habsburg”... so I presume it is a somewhat general rule for the (Western?) European nobility, as it syntactically makes sense to avoid it when isolated.

 

[Kriminalitätsrate]

I also spotted here that Einbeck produces Legumes:
View attachment 1168646
Together with Holzminden, Einbeck covers the Solling mountain - The major source for Stone and Lumber to be shipped down the Weser. Change Einbeck's raw meterial to Stone.

Einbeck is known as "Bierstadt". In times of EU5 Einbeck was a major beer exporter all over Germany and the baltic sea and even Martin Luther praised the beer for its taste. Brewers from Einbeck even taught the Bavarians to brew beer as Bavaria was a land of wine before. The city exported it mainly via the Hanseatic League and the beer made up the most of the cities prestige and I think it was the biggest economic factor of the city/region too. Maybe not directly in 1337 but 1350-1360 till the Enddate. Therefore I think beer would fit much better.

 

[Mef]

Therefore I think beer would fit much better.

Beer is not a raw material.

 

[Chieron]

That's for French, but I believe that English respects it too, for French names at least, if not for English names too. I don't know for German Names, but we commonly read about the Wittelsbach, about Beethoven, about the Habsburg, not about the von Wittelsbach, about von Beethoven, about the von Habsburg... so I presume it is a somewhat general rule for the (Western?) European nobility, as it syntactically makes sense to avoid it when isolated.

It's "van Beethoven", with the Dutch particle, he wasn't nobility.
The particle "von" is generally only used in a specific name e.g. "Rudolf von Habsburg", but it can also be used when referring to the family e.g. "Die Besitzungen der von Habsburg". Though, the collective noun "Habsburger", "Wittelsbacher", "Welfen" or "des Hauses XXX" is more common. As usual with nobles, its complicated (and likely different for other languages).
However, we will usually see the family name attached to a first name, so it makes sense to display it that way?

 

[Alexej1803]

A bit late, but first of all a very great Tinto Maps about Germany. The detail is crazy and with that amount of tags in 1337 in the HRE Central Europe will be a lot of of fun to have campaigns in it.

Still I would like to add some feedback. I think there has been already a lot of feedback posted on this DD, which covered already many things in high detail and I could not agree more with. Nonetheless after some thought I came to the conclusion to give my share of feedback.

View attachment Scannen0003.jpg
( map title in english: "Central Europe at the death of Karl IV. in 1378" ; source: Dr.Walter Leisering (Hg.), 2022, "Historischer Weltatlas"(102.Auflage), Wiesbaden: Marix Verlag)

I want to give feedback regarding the Free Imperial Cities of the HRE. This map, having a time gape of 41 years between the start date 1337 and the poltical borders in 1378, is a good refrence point for the political situation of the HRE in the 14th century although defitnelly not acurrate for the situation of 1337 at all ( in 40+ years things change a bit tbh). That said, it still is mostly acurrate if you look at the Free Imperial Cities in 14th century, because in contrast to other entities of the HRE the Free Imperial Cities borders or their status did not change that frequent and from my perspective is one of the few constant in the HRE (if you want to call them so). So I took a closer look at those cities and came up with the following:

red = Free Imperial Cities depicted as such accourding to HRE map mode of the Tinto Map Post
orange = a tag present in the start date, but not having the status of a Free Imperial City as shown in the post
purple = locations that would have a corresponding Free Imperial City, but are not a tag shown on the map


The mechanics of the HRE are as for now have not been revealed by Tinto or the thoughts of the devs behind it, hence I can not say "shouldn't those all be Imperial Cities?". I assume its due to balance reason of the HRE or diffrent takes on what makes an Imperial City and which rules are applied to diced their status. However I'm no game dev, and although I would like to see those citiey if playable being Free Imperial Cities, if the devs think that many cities will disturbe game balance, then I will not argue.

Yet looking at the cities which are not tags (purple) I strongly wish those to be added for historic accurracy and game experience. Especially in the Elsace and Loraine regions I would add them to make more interisting (Elsace having I think 10+ Imperial cities, large and small). But also Swabia with greatest conctration of Free Imperial Cities 8 as a result of the Interregnum in the HRE in the secound half of the 13th century) , which I prosume would make a great gameplay contrast between north and south Germany.

Those cities out of all of them, which I think are must-haves and are not unreasonabel to add are :

Metz (the largest Free Imperial City in the 14.century and was in addition with Nürnberg birthplace of the Golden Bull)
Straßburg / Strasbourg (probably the largest and infuental city in Elsace)
Köln / Cologne ( one of the most important economic, cultural and historic centers of Germany; also a nimportant member of the Hansa)

Also the thought basically some french Free Imperial cities in the HRE (Verdun, Toul, Metz, Besancon) is rather funny to me to think about.

Beside the the Imperial Cities I want to share those maps:
View attachment 1724327423280.jpeg
( upper map reads: "House power politics in the 13. and 14. centuries"; lower map reads :"Universities until the beginning of the Reformation")

I do not have reallly any feedback related to them but thought I might just share them for those who are interisted.

Anyways I might edit some additonal feedback later to this post regarding province and area naming, but I will see. To conclude I am excited for PC and hope to soon how the HRE "works".

sources are manly
Dr.Walter Leisering (Hg.), 2022, "Historischer Weltatlas"(102.Auflage), Wiesbaden: Marix Verlag
and bit
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freie_und_Reichsstädte#Liste_von_freien_und_Reichsstädten

Metz – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

Goldene Bulle – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

Köln – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

1.Edit: Proposal for area map mode

1. Rheinland (Rhineland), a term for this area which would be applied for this area throughout the centuries

2. Westfalen (Westphalia)
3. Engern (Angria)
4. Ostfalen (Estphalia)
= splitting Niedersachsen into three adhering to the make up the Duchy of Saxony

5. Mecklenburg, cutting it out of Pommerania and adding Strelitz from Brandenburg
6.Schleswig, based of the borders of the Duchy of Schleswig

About the blue part I am not sure how you could name it. Maybe "Magdeburg-Anhalt" or else? I do not know an elegant solution for this naming problem. Perhaps it is just easier splitting it ammongst its neibourghing areas or reshape the areas of Eastern Germany alltogther.

 

[Inzano]

I added Carinthia COAs to the post

 

[Linbot#6018]

As we talk about it, it always disturbs me to read in Paradox Games those “de Luxembourg”, “de Valois”, “de Bourgogne“ alone... The French particle would simply never appear in such circumstances... One would say, write, read, hear: Valois, Luxembourg, Bourgogne. When limiting to the family name, Philippe de Villiers is called “Villiers”, Dominique de Villepin, “Villepin”, the members of the maison de Valois, “les Valois“...

The particle, which is a preposition, only appears when the noun to which the territorial name is related appears too, that is to say after a title, a grade, a form of address, a first name...: la maison de Luxembourg, la famille de Luxembourg, le château de Luxembourg, les princes de Luxembourg, Jean de Luxembourg, monsieur de Luxembourg, le duc de Luxembourg, le général de Luxembourg..., but, without such noun, Luxembourg, les Luxembourg...

That's for French, but I believe that English respects it too, for French names at least, if not for English names too. I don't know for German Names, but we commonly read about the Wittelsbach, about Beethoven, about the Habsburg, not about the “von Wittelsbach”, about “van Beethoven”, about the “von Habsburg”... so I presume it is a somewhat general rule for the (Western?) European nobility, as it syntactically makes sense to avoid it when isolated.

Mhm, I have never in my life heard "de Valois" or such used in English in this way.

Which of course raises the question, if it's not to appease French speakers, and it doesn't sound right for English speakers, why is it in the game? Perhaps technical reasons? I suppose it might be hard to code it so that people are named "von Hapsburg" but in contexts other than their name no particle appears.

 

[Spartakus]

As we talk about it, it always disturbs me to read in Paradox Games those “de Luxembourg”, “de Valois”, “de Bourgogne“ alone... The French particle would simply never appear in such circumstances... One would say, write, read, hear: Valois, Luxembourg, Bourgogne. When limiting to the family name, Philippe de Villiers is called “Villiers”, Dominique de Villepin, “Villepin”, the members of the maison de Valois, “les Valois“...

The particle, which is a preposition, only appears when the noun to which the territorial name is related appears too, that is to say after a title, a grade, a form of address, a first name...: la maison de Luxembourg, la famille de Luxembourg, le château de Luxembourg, les princes de Luxembourg, Jean de Luxembourg, monsieur de Luxembourg, le duc de Luxembourg, le général de Luxembourg..., but, without such noun, Luxembourg, les Luxembourg...

That's for French, but I believe that English respects it too, for French names at least, if not for English names too. I don't know for German Names, but we commonly read about the Wittelsbach, about Beethoven, about the Habsburg, not about the “von Wittelsbach”, about “van Beethoven”, about the “von Habsburg”... so I presume it is a somewhat general rule for the (Western?) European nobility, as it syntactically makes sense to avoid it when isolated.

It's similar in German. The "von" also doesn't refer automatically to the dynasty name. A member of the Welfen would be named "von Hannover" or "von Lüneburg" or similar but never "von Welf"

 

[kittybird]

Is Quedlinburg big enough to be on the map?

 

[Chieron]

Is Quedlinburg big enough to be on the map?

Probably not helpful. It lies between Halberstadt and Aschersleben, which both are existing locations, neither of which is too large. Smushing it in between would be awkward. Was it independent / part of another polity than either of those in 1337 ? Currently, both Halberstadt and Aschersleben locations are part of the same country Halberstadt. While this is a three-city alliance, adding the location of Quedlinburg feels questionable to me.

 

[Mef]

Probably not helpful. It lies between Halberstadt and Aschersleben, which both are existing locations, neither of which is too large. Smushing it in between would be awkward. Was it independent / part of another polity than either of those in 1337 ? Currently, both Halberstadt and Aschersleben locations are part of the same country Halberstadt. While this is a three-city alliance, adding the location of Quedlinburg feels questionable to me.

I'd say the only justification for its inclusion would be that it was an important city in the Middle Ages, but since it's in a region that was relatively urbanized (good soils and rich Harz mining nearby), there are quite a few cities in close proximity that you'll find mentioned a lot in sources from the Late Middle Ages, so unfortunately not everything can be represented.

 

[Palando]

Probably not helpful. It lies between Halberstadt and Aschersleben, which both are existing locations, neither of which is too large. Smushing it in between would be awkward. Was it independent / part of another polity than either of those in 1337 ? Currently, both Halberstadt and Aschersleben locations are part of the same country Halberstadt. While this is a three-city alliance, adding the location of Quedlinburg feels questionable to me.

The southern part of the Aschersleben province was owned by the House of Ascania, so I'd rather add there Ballenstedt, the cradle of their dominions. This would give Anhalt-Bernburg another province.

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

Shouldn't the highlighted part be a part of Upper German cultures/languages?

Spoiler

 

[Atromb]

Why are markish and brandemburgish separate cultures? Shouldn't it just be markish?
I'm also not sure about angrian culture but I feel like that shouldn't be a thing either(?)
By contrast thuringian should probably be its own culture.
Finally I think low alemanic is better than rhine alemanic as a name.