Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

[Inzano]

COAs for Styria are added to. It took me quite some time.

 

[Dornwood]

Hello,

i would like to inform you that the inhabitans of the regions of today thuringia, saxony and parts of Saxon-Anhalt aren't and weren't cultural Saxons(like it is depicted on the culturemap) but Thuringians!

If there is any need for sources (or their translation) about the middle-German region in the 14th century i would offer my help to reach a more historical accurate result.

Is there already a rework for the "Areas"-Map because, as it was written in the subtitle, it very much shows modern borders?

 

[frdrcse]

I saw that lakes have been added to other maps. Will the Müritz also be added as a lake? Other lakes in the Mecklenburg region include the Schweriner See, the Kummerower See, the Plauer See, and the Tollensesee. Especially in the so-called „Mecklenburgische Seenplatte“, there are many other lakes, but they are probably too small to be considered.

I have another comment regarding natural harbors. What criteria apply to a 100% natural harbor? I’m asking, because Rostock seems like a 100% natural harbor to me.

I will be adding this comments to my original post, so it’s all at one spot.

 

[Chieron]

I saw that lakes have been added to other maps. Will the Müritz also be added as a lake? Other lakes in the Mecklenburg region include the Schweriner See, the Kummerower See, the Plauer See, and the Tollensesee. Especially in the so-called „Mecklenburgische Seenplatte“, there are many other lakes, but they are probably too small to be considered.

I have another comment regarding natural harbors. What criteria apply to a 100% natural harbor? I’m asking, because Rostock seems like a 100% natural harbor to me.

I will be adding this comments to my original post, so it’s all at one spot.

The Müritz is probably the only lake in Mecklenburg large enough to matter for the relevant mechanics. Depending on the final location borders, the lakes of Plau, Schwerin and Ratzeburg as well as the Schaalsee could also be used (these are relatively long lakes where walking around them actually meaningfully changes timings). But these already are rather small and narrow. I guess that lakes which are smaller than 100 pixels (minimum size of locations), will need to be omitted (or be included only as decals).

Rostock indeed is quite a good harbor, but probably not perfect. The obvious weekness is the mouth of the Warnow being a bit narrow and not too deep (depth matters more for silting, wooden ships do not need extremely deep water).

 

[Polesie Admiral]

hey can someone explain why Thuringia is only one location?

 

[Chieron]

hey can someone explain why Thuringia is only one location?

Huh? It looks to be about 20 locations, located mostly in 5 provinces: Altgau, Geratal, Husitingau, Baringau, Meiningen and part of the Mark Zeitz.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

Huh? It looks to be about 20 locations, located mostly in 5 provinces: Altgau, Geratal, Husitingau, Baringau, Meiningen and part of the Mark Zeitz.

do you mean the area? no i meant the polity\country that is in a union with Meissen(supposed to be anyway), looking at the dynasty and political map its one location Eisenach

 

[Chieron]

do you mean the area? no i meant the polity\country that is in a union with Meissen(supposed to be anyway), looking at the dynasty and political map its one location Eisenach

Ah, I see. It looks like the landgraviate is quite small, given that it wins a war a few years later. Unfortunately, I cannot find a map of Thuringia in the early 14th century, and checking on the main settlements for some locations points to the map being right. Thuringian history is complicated.

 

[Lord_Telchar]

On the coat of arms of Bregenz, Feldkirch and Werdenberg:
At the start date, all three counties are ruled by branches of the noble family "Montfort", itself a branch of the swabian family "Tübingen", and their coat of arms descends from the counts palatine of Tübingen, showing a red gonfanon on gold:

The first coat of arms of the counts of montfort just changed the shield from gold to silver:

However soon the family would split into several branches, and each would adopt a slightly different variation.
Luckily for us, there is a depiction of the various coat of arms exactly from this period (ca. 1335-1345) out of the Zürich Armorial:

Showing from left to right: Bregenz, Werdenberg, Feldkirch, Tettnang, Asperg, Heiligenberg;
Unfortunately for us, we can't take these at face value, and have to add historical context.
Bregenz

To the left the arms from the Zürich Armorial, to the right the modern arms of the city of Bregenz. It is unkown where it originates, in the 16th century it was claimed to be the arms of the Uldarichinger (which ruled Bregenz before the Montforts took over), but they likely never had their own coat of arms. The design was probably invented in the 14th century to claim legitimacy from the long extinct Uldarichinger, and over the centuries came to be associated with the city of Bregenz. It's unkown whether the Montforts of Bregenz used it instead of, or alongside their own arms, or it was simply mistakenly attributed to them.
After the branch Montfort-Bregenz died out in 1338, the following line of Montfort-Tettnang-Bregenz would use a red Montfort gonfanon on a silver shield:

Feldkirch
The Feldkirch branch was until it's extinction in 1375 the senior branch, ruling over the "Stammburg" near Götzis and the rich city of Feldkirch. The Armorial shows it using the original arms from Tübingen

, which is also well attested from other sources. The city of Feldkirch was awarded the coat of arms with a Montfort gonfanon in black on a silver shield

in the 16th century by the Habsburgs. That black on silver banner is sometimes called the "peace-banner", with the red on silver supposedly being the Montfort war-banner, but that is likely an urban legend.

Werdenberg
First this branch used a black gonfanon on silver

, but by 1337 the branch had further split into Werdenberg-Heiligenberg and Werdenberg-Sargans.
Ingame shown is probably the line Werdenberg-Sargans, which used a silver gonfanon on a red shield

, while Werdenberg-Heiligenberg continued using the original arms

, so the Armorial likely mixed those two up (or mixed Heiligenberg up with Herrenberg, the rulers of which used a gold gonfanon on red).

So based on this discussion, I'd choose the coat of arms as follows:
Montfort-Bregenz:......................Montfort-Feldkirch:....................Werdenberg-Sargans*:

*since the black gonfanon on silver is still strongly associated with the counts of Werdenberg, perhaps

is more fitting to represent Werdenberg over the centuries, with the issue it's also quite strongly associated with the city of Feldkirch - at the end of the day the colour combination was quite variable historically, picking one over another to represent these counties will always be a little arbitrary.

Edit: as there has been some demand for a playable "Lichtenstein", in 1342 there was another split in the Werdenberg line, creating the line "Werdenberg-Vaduz" and the first independant County of Vaduz, which would pass in 1613 to the Counts of Hohenems, which in turn would sell Vaduz in 1712 to the Prince of Lichtenstein.
Though anachronistic for 1337, a line Werdenberg-Vaduz might be fun for roleplay. They used a silver gonfanon on a black shield.

 

[Ruwaard]

Mhm, I have never in my life heard "de Valois" or such used in English in this way.

Which of course raises the question, if it's not to appease French speakers, and it doesn't sound right for English speakers, why is it in the game? Perhaps technical reasons? I suppose it might be hard to code it so that people are named "von Hapsburg" but in contexts other than their name no particle appears.

I think in that case, it would be von Habsburg. Also Untersteiermark should belong to Styria not Slovenia, politically, culturally it should be Slovenian.

I'd also split the Saxon culture in Thuringian and Upper Saxon.

As for the regions IMHO I would have started with the Imperial Circles, only when in doubt I would have looked further back to the Stem duchies, which arguably for the rest are CK territory, many regions are IMHO too modern.

Sorry I found this way too late.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

what dynasty is ruling Sonderhausen?

 

[Polesie Admiral]

What is the primary/ruling culture in Lusatia? Sorbian or Brandenburgish? Also isn't Brandenburgish and Markish supposed to be the same?

 

[Polesie Admiral]

shouldnt Arnstadt be under the rule of the Schwarzburg family?

 

[Clyde Wallach]

Bas Valais and Oberwallis should be joined into a province of Valais.

Graubünden should be Raetia. Yes, the name was still around in the Middle Ages.

Styria took its name from Steyr, which is so far to the north of modern-day Slovenia that it's actually in Upper Austria now. It makes no sense for the part of Styria that is in modern-day Slovenia to have that name reserved for it. Just call it Lower Styria.

 

[Linbot#6018]

Bas Valais and Oberwallis should be joined into a province of Valais.

Graubünden should be Raetia. Yes, the name was still around in the Middle Ages.

Styria took its name from Steyr, which is so far to the north of modern-day Slovenia that it's actually in Upper Austria now. It makes no sense for the part of Styria that is in modern-day Slovenia to have that name reserved for it. Just call it Lower Styria.

I also am pretty sure that the Slovenia area should be divided between Styria and Carniola.

 

[Clyde Wallach]

I also am pretty sure that the Slovenia area should be divided between Styria and Carniola.

I have some thoughts on that, but my response to the Germany maps is very much a work in progress. The last item on my list is, quite literally, "[Yeah, pretty much all the areas and cultures.]" (As in, I need to come up with better ones.)

 

[Inzano]

I also am pretty sure that the Slovenia area should be divided between Styria and Carniola.

This proposal has probably already been written at least 20 times in this thread. xD

 

[Clyde Wallach]

For some reason, Treviso and some neighboring provinces are depicted as outside the HRE.

The Duchy of Schleswig was in 1337 still known by its original name of Sønderjylland ("South Jutland").

The House of Griffin only started using that name in the 15th century, taking it from their coat of arms. The Gryf dynasty should be called von Pommern instead.

(By the way, this is off-topic, but does anyone know of any other example of a dynasty deriving its name from one of the symbols that it already used?)

Sylt should be a location. Sylt was actually a peninsula until 1362, when a catastrophic storm tide (the Great Drowning of Men or 2nd St. Marcellus Flood) turned it into an island. In the Map talk I proposed that natural disasters should be a feature of the game, with weather events taking place at random. Storm tides around the North Sea would fall under this category, and there should be a high probability (though not a certainty) that one of them cuts off Sylt from Jutland by the end date.

Tábor was established in 1420 by a group of Hussites that became known as the Taborites. The location needs to be renamed after some other major settlement, though I can't think of any. Since the Hussite religion is mentioned elsewhere, I assume there's some sort of event chain leading to it, so renaming that location to Tábor should be something that will happen (or might not happen) later in the game.

Bienne should be Biel. Freiburg should be Freiburg im Breisgau. Fribourg should be Freiburg im Üechtland.

Kärnten, Steiermark and Slovenia should be reorganized into Carinthia & Carniola in the west and Styria in the east.

The German name of Bavaria at this point would be Baiern, not Bayern. The latter form was officially adopted in 1825 due to the philhellenism of the king (who apparently thought the letter y made it look more Greek), and took some time to catch on. But then, why call the countries Upper and Lower Bavaria, but the areas Oberbayern and Niederbayern? I strongly urge that the German area names be changed to English-language equivalents whenever those exist. We don't call Bohemia Čechy, or Sicily Sicilia, or Croatia Hrvatska, or Lesser Poland Małopolska, or Finland Suomi, or Bengal Bôṅgo, do we?

 

[Inzano]

For some reason, Treviso and some neighboring provinces are depicted as outside the HRE.

The Duchy of Schleswig was in 1337 still known by its original name of Sønderjylland ("South Jutland").

The House of Griffin only started using that name in the 15th century, taking it from their coat of arms. The Gryf dynasty should be called von Pommern instead.

(By the way, this is off-topic, but does anyone know of any other example of a dynasty deriving its name from one of the symbols that it already used?)

Sylt should be a location. Sylt was actually a peninsula until 1362, when a catastrophic storm tide (the Great Drowning of Men or 2nd St. Marcellus Flood) turned it into an island. In the Map talk I proposed that natural disasters should be a feature of the game, with weather events taking place at random. Storm tides around the North Sea would fall under this category, and there should be a high probability (though not a certainty) that one of them cuts off Sylt from Jutland by the end date.

Tábor was established in 1420 by a group of Hussites that became known as the Taborites. The location needs to be renamed after some other major settlement, though I can't think of any. Since the Hussite religion is mentioned elsewhere, I assume there's some sort of event chain leading to it, so renaming that location to Tábor should be something that will happen (or might not happen) later in the game.

Bienne should be Biel. Freiburg should be Freiburg im Breisgau. Fribourg should be Freiburg im Üechtland.

Kärnten, Steiermark and Slovenia should be reorganized into Carinthia & Carniola in the west and Styria in the east.

The German name of Bavaria at this point would be Baiern, not Bayern. The latter form was officially adopted in 1825 due to the philhellenism of the king (who apparently thought the letter y made it look more Greek), and took some time to catch on. But then, why call the countries Upper and Lower Bavaria, but the areas Oberbayern and Niederbayern? I strongly urge that the German area names be changed to English-language equivalents whenever those exist. We don't call Bohemia Čechy, or Sicily Sicilia, or Croatia Hrvatska, or Lesser Poland Małopolska, or Finland Suomi, or Bengal Bôṅgo, do we?

Why can not be Carniola its own area, when Slazburg, which is smaller, can be?

 

[Clyde Wallach]

Why can not be Carniola its own area, when Slazburg, which is smaller, can be?

Carniola is already a province. Carinthia alone only has 2 provinces, so that's 3 provinces between them. These cannot be organized as 2 areas.