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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

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Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Since rivers seem to play a bigger role in CP.
Is it just me, or are rivers not visible on the map?
Are there any infos about the rivers currently implemented in the Germany region?
If not, I would suggest adding at least the 10 biggest ones to the game:
Rhein, Elbe, Donau, Main, Weser, Saale, Spree, Ems, Neckar, Havel.
Do not forget the Moldau, Aller, Oder, Neiße, Isar and Inn.. But there are also quite a few more minor navigable rivers which should have an effect for control (e.g. the Peene or Trave).
 
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why are the Schwarzburgs who are ruling Arnstadt considered part of the Askanier dynasty?
Nordhausen should be a free city
I dont know who ruled Sangerhausen in the 14th century
and I cant see whats the dynasty ruling Sondershausen
also i suggest adding 2 locations Gotha(1) and Jena(2) both owned by the landgraviate of Thuringia
thuringen.png
 
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Do not forget the Moldau, Aller, Oder, Neiße, Isar and Inn.. But there are also quite a few more minor navigable rivers which should have an effect for control (e.g. the Peene or Trave).
I generally agree. Also, I admit that I was a little lazy in my post, as I chose the ten longest rivers based on the length they flow through modernday Germany. However, the Oder is obviously important as well.

Since there are no specific guidelines on which rivers will be included, I think going by total length would be appropriate. If I had a say in this, rivers like the Peene (138 km), the Trave (124 km), and the Warnow (155 km) would be included. But I think they are just too short. They would also run through/ by only about three locations. So, maybe only include rivers with a total length of at least 300 km or something?
 
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Since there are no specific guidelines on which rivers will be included, I think going by total length would be appropriate. If I had a say in this, rivers like the Peene (138 km), the Trave (124 km), and the Warnow (155 km) would be included. But I think they are just too short. They would also run through/ by only about three locations. So, maybe only include rivers with a total length of at least 300 km or something?
The Warnow is reasonably navigable until about Bützow (so basically connection the locations Rostock and Bützow, with some access for Güstrow, about 50km in), further upriver it becomes too shallow. Meaning: there are some other things to consider and sometimes the required research might not be worth it. The Peene would connect Demmin / Malchin towards Anklam/Wolgast. Again, just basically one location. However, Demmin was a hanseatic city with a harbor.. And the Trave does not really meaningfully reach other locations than Lübeck (Ratzeburg and Lauenburg are not that well connected to it).
Length is far from the worst criterion, as a total river length of 100km means mostly one extra location to be connected. Though mean discharge is also very important.

Major tributuaries like Neckar and Mosel could also be added.. Though we really need some criteria here, otherwise there will be rivers everywhere or extreme inconsistency. 300km length sounds like a reasonable size, after all.
 
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I'm not a linguist (maybe we have one here who knows about the history of German in the time period??), but from what I can tell it makes the most sense to split German into High German, Low German and Dutch in this time period.
ENHG_diphthongisation.jpg

German dialects changed quite a lot during the first few centuries of this game (less so after High German, Low German and Dutch were established as printing languages), but the split between north and south is pretty clear.

You could obviously be more granular and split off Alsatian or Ripuarian (a 16th century book considers Ripuarian to not be part of High German for example), but I think it's fine to keep it simple.


I also question the distribution of Frisian here. Starting from ~1400, Old Frisian was replaced by Low German in East Frisia, so if the game doesn't represent this, then East Frisia should NOT use Old Frisian, but Low German. Their dialect is still called East Frisian, but it's a Low German dialect, not an Old Frisian dialect!
Even in parts of Dutch Frisia, Old Frisian was replaced by Dutch dialects brought in by merchants, so old Frisian should only be spoken in a very small geographical area.
 
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View attachment 1212764
View attachment 1212765


Rename High German to Upper German and Middle German to Central German. Central German and Upper German are dialects of High German.
Yea, the terminology is incorrect

High German (Hochdeutsch) is Middle German and Upper German (Mitteldeutsch and Oberdeutsch)
1730984688020.jpeg
1730984529079.png


In addition, East Franconian (Ostfränkisch) is incorrectly labelled as Middle German.

1730985012793.png
1730984996784.png
 
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In addition, East Franconian (Ostfränkisch) is incorrectly labelled as Middle German.
That's because it used to be viewed as part of Middle German. They probably used an old linguistic map such as this one, which has pretty much exactly the same distribution as cultures in the OP:
tumblr_othcd1cHrp1rasnq9o1_1280.jpg

(Yeah they counted Nürnberg as Oberpfälzisch o_O)

You can see the Brandenburgisch/Märkisch split in this map as well.
 
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I'm not a linguist (maybe we have one here who knows about the history of German in the time period??), but from what I can tell it makes the most sense to split German into High German, Low German and Dutch in this time period.
ENHG_diphthongisation.jpg

German dialects changed quite a lot during the first few centuries of this game (less so after High German, Low German and Dutch were established as printing languages), but the split between north and south is pretty clear.

You could obviously be more granular and split off Alsatian or Ripuarian (a 16th century book considers Ripuarian to not be part of High German for example), but I think it's fine to keep it simple.


I also question the distribution of Frisian here. Starting from ~1400, Old Frisian was replaced by Low German in East Frisia, so if the game doesn't represent this, then East Frisia should NOT use Old Frisian, but Low German. Their dialect is still called East Frisian, but it's a Low German dialect, not an Old Frisian dialect!
Even in parts of Dutch Frisia, Old Frisian was replaced by Dutch dialects brought in by merchants, so old Frisian should only be spoken in a very small geographical area.
I want to expand on your idea

German language can be split into High German and Low German languages.

Low German as embodiment of Hanseatic league
High German as a language of Luther Bible

And then dialects of Dutch and Low Saxon for Low German. And Upper and Central German as dialects of High German.
 
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I want to expand on your idea

German language can be split into High German and Low German languages.

Low German as embodiment of Hanseatic league
High German as a language of Luther Bible
""burgern, meistern, raitmannen, burgern und koufflutenn etlicher stete von der duytscher hanszen des heiligen reichs""
As quoted in the Netherlands thread, the Hanseatic League was considered to be speaking German (duytsch), not Low German.

Yes, people distinguished between High German, Low German and Dutch at the time, but the concept of a unified German speaking people 100% existed and it should be represented in the game.
 
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""burgern, meistern, raitmannen, burgern und koufflutenn etlicher stete von der duytscher hanszen des heiligen reichs""
As quoted in the Netherlands thread, the Hanseatic League was considered to be speaking German (duytsch), not Low German.

Yes, people distinguished between High German, Low German and Dutch at the time, but the concept of a unified German speaking people 100% existed and it should be represented in the game.
More importantly, lacking a centralized state, this concept of a common language was a major unifying factor for the German nation. Low German and High German were mutually intelligble enough to be considered part of the same language. The differences were smaller than between either and the Scandinavian languages or English (in game terms, same language rather than language group).
 
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I think the market language in the Prague market should be German considering the Germans dominated the trade in the Czech lands
Market language is based on the dominant language of burghers in the market center and Prague was and is most definitely a Czech location.
I don't think it would be accurate to give Prague a majority of German burghers...
 
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1731084070649.png


Since everybody is talking about languages, I would like to draw attention to cultures. Long story short, Germans should be divided either by language (High versus Low) or culture group (no German group). I will now make a suggestion for the latter:

South German Group: Rhine Franconian, East Franconian, Rhine Alemannic, Swabian, High Alemannic, Upper Palatine, Danube Bavarian, South Bavarian (maybe Moselle Franconian and Romansh? too)

Rhenish Group: Rhine Alemannic, Lorrain, Rhine Franconian, Moselle Franconian, Ripuarian Franconian

Netherlandish Group: Frisian, Westphalian, Low Franconian, Walloon, Ripuarian Franconian

Wendish Group: Polabian, Western Pomeranian, Eastern Pomeranian, Kashubian, Prussian, Markish, Brandenburgish, Saxon, Sorbian ,Silesian, Silesian German, Czech, Moravian

North German Group: Low Franconian, Ripuarian Franconian, Westphalian, Lower Saxon, Angrian, Eastphalian, Holsatian, Western Pomeranian, Eastern Pomeranian, Prussian, Markish, Brandenburgish, Saxon, Silesian German
 
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Wendish Group: Polabian, Western Pomeranian, Eastern Pomeranian, Kashubian, Prussian, Markish, Brandenburgish, Saxon, Sorbian ,Silesian, Silesian German, Czech, Moravian
????
Wendisch is the old German word for Slavic speakers. You are mixing both Germans and Slavs in this group. It doesn't make any sense.
 
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View attachment 1213695

Since everybody is talking about languages, I would like to draw attention to cultures. Long story short, Germans should be divided either by language (High versus Low) or culture group (no German group). I will now make a suggestion for the latter:

South German Group: Rhine Franconian, East Franconian, Rhine Alemannic, Swabian, High Alemannic, Upper Palatine, Danube Bavarian, South Bavarian (maybe Moselle Franconian and Romansh? too)

Rhenish Group: Rhine Alemannic, Lorrain, Rhine Franconian, Moselle Franconian, Ripuarian Franconian

Netherlandish Group: Frisian, Westphalian, Low Franconian, Walloon, Ripuarian Franconian

Wendish Group: Polabian, Western Pomeranian, Eastern Pomeranian, Kashubian, Prussian, Markish, Brandenburgish, Saxon, Sorbian ,Silesian, Silesian German, Czech, Moravian

North German Group: Low Franconian, Ripuarian Franconian, Westphalian, Lower Saxon, Angrian, Eastphalian, Holsatian, Western Pomeranian, Eastern Pomeranian, Prussian, Markish, Brandenburgish, Saxon, Silesian German
1731087650017.png

Grey: North German, Orange: South German, Red: Netherlandish, Green: Rhenish, Purple: Wendish
 
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????
Wendisch is the old German word for Slavic speakers. You are mixing both Germans and Slavs in this group. It doesn't make any sense.
That's the point. This group combines German cultures in former Slavic lands and Slavic cultures that are under HRE members or otherwise intertwined with Germans.
 
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