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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
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Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
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Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
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The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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That's the point. This group combines German cultures in former Slavic lands and Slavic cultures that are under HRE members or otherwise intertwined with Germans.
I don't see why you would ever combine these cultures. Why would Czechs get a bonus for integrating Pomeranians?
 
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I don't see why you would ever combine these cultures. Why would Czechs get a bonus for integrating Pomeranians?
Because Czechs are Western Slavs that are closely intertwined with Germans politically, economically and culturally and Pomeranians are Western Slavs that have adopted the German language.
 
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Because Czechs are Western Slavs that are closely intertwined with Germans politically, economically and culturally and Pomeranians are Western Slavs that have adopted the German language.
No, Pomeranians are Germans who settled Pomerania during the Ostsiedlung.
And during certain periods of the game's timeframe, Czechs were VERY anti-German, so it would be really strange to have them in a culture group with German cultures.
 
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No, Pomeranians are Germans who settled Pomerania during the Ostsiedlung.
And during certain periods of the game's timeframe, Czechs were VERY anti-German, so it would be really strange to have them in a culture group with German cultures.
I highly doubt that the majority of Pomeranians (or any East Germans for that matter) are actually decended from German settlers, but neither you nor I have a time machine so we will never know for sure. I find it interesting though that you have nothing to say about the Walloon, Lorrain and Romansh cultures in my proposal.
 
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I highly doubt that the majority of Pomeranians (or any East Germans for that matter) are actually decended from German settlers, but neither you nor I have a time machine so we will never know for sure.
Well, that's how it's set up in the game? Pomeranians are the Germans, Kashubians and Polabians the Slavs. And it's not like it's been a long time since the German settlers arrived, so there's still a lot of Slavs left.
I find it interesting though that you have nothing to say about the Walloon, Lorrain and Romansh cultures in my proposal.
There isn't much I like about the grouping proposal, the Eastern group just stood out the most.

I just see absolutely no reason to not group all German cultures in one German culture group. And to group German cultures and non-German cultures who have historically been at odds is just absurd. That would completely erode the concept of what a culture group is supposed to be.
 
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Well, that's how it's set up in the game? Pomeranians are the Germans, Kashubians and Polabians the Slavs. And it's not like it's been a long time since the German settlers arrived, so there's still a lot of Slavs left.

There isn't much I like about the grouping proposal, the Eastern group just stood out the most.

I just see absolutely no reason to not group all German cultures in one German culture group. And to group German cultures and non-German cultures who have historically been at odds is just absurd. That would completely erode the concept of what a culture group is supposed to be.
Well, if you read the relevant TT, you'd know that Tinto disagrees with you. I also expect that they're already including Czech in their German culture group, because it makes the most sense gameplay-wise. And if you had read my initial post you'd also know that I'm arguing for EITHER a division of the language OR the culture group, since having all Germans from Holland to Austria be the same is not true to reality.
 
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Well, if you read the relevant TT, you'd know that Tinto disagrees with you. I also expect that they're already including Czech in their German culture group, because it makes the most sense gameplay-wise. And if you had read my initial post you'd also know that I'm arguing for EITHER a division of the language OR the culture group, since having all Germans from Holland to Austria be the same is not true to reality.
I don't know what you're smoking. Why would you expect Czechs to be in the German culture group??? Is this supposed to be a joke?

And all Germans from Austria to Holland (or you know, from the Maas up to the Memel, from the Etsch to the Belt...) being in the same culture group is 100% historical for the time period.
 
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I don't know what you're smoking. Why would you expect Czechs to be in the German culture group??? Is this supposed to be a joke?

And all Germans from Austria to Holland (or you know, from the Maas up to the Memel, from the Etsch to the Belt...) being in the same culture group is 100% historical for the time period.
I have indulged you far enough. Have a nice life.
 
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I highly doubt that the majority of Pomeranians (or any East Germans for that matter) are actually decended from German settlers, but neither you nor I have a time machine so we will never know for sure. I find it interesting though that you have nothing to say about the Walloon, Lorrain and Romansh cultures in my proposal.
The area east of the Elbe was settled by Germans incoming from the west, the slavic population was assimilated over time (but also suppressed). The assumption that the population is majorily descended from slavic people is faulty. The area was not densely settled before the Ostsiedlung, so the settlers could overwhelm the locals. Of course, there was also assimilation, so the slavic population does have descendants but claiming a pure slav origin would be just as weird as pure German one. The effect you describe would apply for Silesia, where people actually switched language and the slavs were never outnumbered by settlers.
Splitting Germany into separate culture groups makes so sence and is not acceptable. Having many small cultures might work well enough, but that goes far too far. The mostly political splintering of a large culture group is the interesting part and is historical.

Market language is based on the dominant language of burghers in the market center and Prague was and is most definitely a Czech location.
I don't think it would be accurate to give Prague a majority of German burghers...
I'm not so sure about that. Prague had a sizable German population, especially among the burghers. However, having the language being German would likely expand the influence of the market even further, and it already looks quite weird given that Bohemia is surrounded by mountains. I wonder, if a market in Nürnberg and/or Leipzig would be viable..
 
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I'm not so sure about that. Prague had a sizable German population, especially among the burghers. However, having the language being German would likely expand the influence of the market even further, and it already looks quite weird given that Bohemia is surrounded by mountains. I wonder, if a market in Nürnberg and/or Leipzig would be viable..
I definitely want to try what it looks like with Frankfurt, Nürnberg and maybe Leipzig as market centers added. Maybe even Augsburg and Hamburg!
They're clearly going for a low density of markets, but there is no shortage of German cities that could be market centers in the time period, that's for sure.
 
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What Angrian and Markish cultures are based on? They do not represent a separate dialect, identity, or culture. Angrian should be split between Westphalian and Eastphalian while Markish is the different name of Brandenburgish
1731671520246.png
 
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What Angrian and Markish cultures are based on? They do not represent a separate dialect, identity, or culture.
Markish is the part of Brandenburg that speaks a Low German dialect rather than a Central German one. It could be Pomeranian, were it not for Brandenburg rule.

Angrian would be connected to the Engern part of the split up Saxon stem duchy, though I do not know, whether this was a meaningful identity in the 14th century.
 
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Markish is the part of Brandenburg that speaks a Low German dialect rather than a Central German one. It could be Pomeranian, were it not for Brandenburg rule.

Angrian would be connected to the Engern part of the split up Saxon stem duchy, though I do not know, whether this was a meaningful identity in the 14th century.
Angria as a term was obsolete by 12-14th century

Central German dialect in the Brandenburg area is called Berlinese and it appeared only in 16th century because Protestant Bible was written in Central German and Brandenburg was Protestant, it was used as lingua franca between different Protestant groups that sought refuge there like Huguenots, gradually replacing native Low German. Markish and Brandenburgish on the other hand, are two names for the same thing. Also, both cultures are Low German in the dialect map.
1731672464840.png
 
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Central German dialect in the Brandenburg area is called Berlinese and it appeared only in 16th century because Protestant Bible was written in Central German and Brandenburg was Protestant, it was used as lingua franca between different Protestant groups that sought refuge there like Huguenots, gradually replacing native Low German. Markish and Brandenburgish on the other hand, are two names for the same thing. Also, both cultures are pointed to as Low German in the dialect map.
View attachment 1216510
Then the dialect map might have an issue.
The part of Brandenburg south of Berlin is part of the Central German dialect area, with Berlin being an appendage.
That said, the cultures in the HRE are a bit odd overall.
 
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Then the dialect map might have an issue.
The part of Brandenburg south of Berlin is part of the Central German dialect area, with Berlin being an appendage.
That said, the cultures in the HRE are a bit odd overall.
Modern border between Central German and Low German lies around Wittenberg, overlapping modern border with the culture map we get next:
1731673085875.png

As you can see, both Markish and Brandenburg are in Low German zone (expect Berlin but I already explained why)
 
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Well, that's how it's set up in the game? Pomeranians are the Germans, Kashubians and Polabians the Slavs. And it's not like it's been a long time since the German settlers arrived, so there's still a lot of Slavs left.

There isn't much I like about the grouping proposal, the Eastern group just stood out the most.

I just see absolutely no reason to not group all German cultures in one German culture group. And to group German cultures and non-German cultures who have historically been at odds is just absurd. That would completely erode the concept of what a culture group is supposed to be.
But if they all live in Duchy of Pomerania, they are also all 'Pomeranians', regardless of their natianality/heritage/language.

Not to mention the local ruling elite was at the game start still Slavic. Hell, there is strong evidence the whole Griffin dynasty is of Slavic origin.

German and Slavs at that time weren't at odds, but happily co-existed. Keep in mind, back then lord and church you serve mattered more than the language you spoke....
Animosity only started to build up at the time of religious wars and counter reformation.
 
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