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Tinto Maps #13 - 2nd of August 2024 - Maghreb

Hello, and welcome one more week to another Tinto Maps, where we assemble several maps for the shake of it (well, also to gather feedback, I guess). After the nightmarish maps of last week, we’re showing a much less fragmented region this week, the Maghreb. Let’s take a look at it, then.

Countries:
Countries 1.jpg

Countries 2.jpg

This week I’m showing two versions of the country map, one without colored wastelands, and another with them colored (please take into account that some work still needs to be done regarding the coloring of the corridors). Only four new countries are to be shown this week (as Fezzan already appeared some weeks ago). First is first, there are dynamic keys for them similar to the Mamluks, so their full name in the game are ‘Marinid Sultanate of Morocco’, ‘Zayyanid Sultanate of Tlemcen, and ‘Hafsid Sultanate of Tunis’ (Tripoli starts with a random ruler, as we weren’t able to find which was the reigning dynasty in 1337). The main power in this period is the Marinid dynasty, ruling from Fās, after grabbing the power from the Almohads almost a century ago. They start at war with the Zayyanids of Tlemcen, and its capital is close to falling to the mighty Sultan Abu al-Hasan ‘Ali. They also have a foothold in Iberia, around Algeciras and Ronda, which may lead to future campaigns about the control of the Strait of Gibraltar.

Diplomacy.jpg

And this is the starting diplomatic situation between Morocco and Tlemcen, with the capital of the latter almost surrounded by the former...

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

Here we have the three main dynasties of the Maghreb in 1337, the Marinids, the Zayyanids, and the Hafsids. Apart from those, the dynasties of Tripoli and Fezzan are randomly generated, as we don’t know who was ruling in those places at that specific time.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png
Here are the maps of the locations. In the first, you may see the corridors (the non-named locations) connecting the Maghreb with the Saharan inner lands and oases. Regarding the location density, we might want to increase it in a few places (that Siṭṭāt location is too big compared to its neighbors, for instance).

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We’re open to suggestions for the provinces, as usual.

Areas:
Areas.png

The areas of the Maghreb correspond to their historical division (al-Aqṣā, al-Awsat, al-Adna, and Tripoli). The northern section of the Sahara is split in two areas, the Western Sahara, and the Sahara Oases.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Better late than never!

Cultures:
Cultures.png

The cultural division of the region is very, very interesting, we think. The first thing that I want to stress is that we’ve divided the most Arabized zones from the more traditionally Berber ones. The more Arabized cultures are the Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Lybian, and the Hassaniya tribe, in the western Sahara. Meanwhile, the Berber-speaking peoples are divided into Masmuda, and Sanhaja in al-Maġrib al-Aqṣā; the Zenati in al-Maġrib al-Awsat; the Kabylian, Chaoui, and Mozabite in al-Maġrib al-Adna; and the Eastern Berber (a name that we will probably change, given the feedback already received in the Egyptian Tinto Maps) in Tripoli. The Berber-speaking Tuareg and the Saharan-speaking Toubou inhabit the central Saharan Oases.

Religions:
Religions.png

Most of the region’s population practices Sunni Islam, with a very important zone where Ibadism is the majority, more or less corresponding with Mozabite and Eastern Berbers. Although it’s not shown on the map, there are two religious minorities present, the Mustaʿravi Jews, in a bunch of urban centers across the region, and some native Christians spread through al-Maġrib al-Adna.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The Maghreb is very rich in different materials, especially Morocco (which was used a long time ago as a ‘RGO-gameplay’ testing ground by our QAs). The Saharan corridor is way less productive, but it’s somehow important for the next map…

Markets:
Markets.png

The market centers of the region are placed in Fās and Al-Jazā'ir, which makes for good market access and distribution for the start of the game, in general terms. You might notice that trading happens across the corridors, which makes for a real connection between the markets to the north and south of the Sahara in 1337. This means that we can effectively simulate the trading of Saharan and sub-Saharan goods (salt, alum, gold, ivory) to the north until maybe some European countries decide to explore down the African coast and make direct trading in the Gulf of Guinea, avoiding the Maghrebi intermediaries.

Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png
The population of the region is around 5,5M, with an interesting distribution: al-Maġrib al-Aqṣā and al-Maġrib al-Adna have more or less a similar population, with al-Maġrib al-Awsat having half of them, and Tripoli and Saharan Oases being way less populated.

And that’s all for this week! The next one we will travel across the Sahara, and take a look at the region of Western Africa. See you!
 
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And this is the starting diplomatic situation between Morocco and Tlemcen, with the capital of the latter almost surrounded by the former...

What's the average result post-peace deal? Do AI Morocco full-annex, they annex some bits ,or... something else?
 
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To be honest, take it a bit as a placeholder. We wanted a second market center in Maghreb, as one was obviously not enough, and we initially set it up in Tunis; however, with the old calculations, it was getting most of the trade in Sicily and Sardinia, over Naples and Genoa, so we changed to Algiers, which worked much better for gameplay balance. We may give it another try in the map review, as the calculations have changed since we did that (you may have an example of this happening some Tinto Maps ago, with the market center of the Low Countries).
Generally speaking, wouldn't most of the balance and realism problems you face with markets be solved by having more smaller markets which would (for most of them) have a much more limited market access projection.

Maybe it would be a problem in term of performances, but markets could get bigger and bigger as the campaign goes and nations develop tech and infrastructure, which would make for more economic gameplay (whose market will survive and whose market will get swallowed) and historical simulation, showing that, as world trade is starting to organize itself, certain cities and their markets are starting to concentrate commercial influence because they benefit from this new world trade.
 
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No, sorry. There's still some work left to be done.
All right. I hope it will be done as best as possible (Silesia and Pomerania should have a much higher density of locations - after all, they were part of HRE. The locations in Prussia are poorly located and several are missing. The rest of the area of modern Poland was much less urbanized, but there are no border locations such as Siewierz, Wadowice and Biała in Lesser Poland, or Łomża and Kolno in Mazovia).

Can you count on a little spoiler?
 
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Some suggestions - apologies for lack of special characters on this keyboard!

It seems like a few of the province names (Azgar, Errif, Garet, Habat, Chaus) come from John Ogilby's 17th century Africa: Being an accurate description..., which would be Anglified native words - I've tried to find the indigenous name, but wasn't always successful

Morocco (and Adjacent Algeria):
  • Temesna (Province) - Should either be Tamasna (english), Tāmasnā (Arabic), or Tamsna (Tamazight/Berber) - the wiki page seems to have an extra 'e' in the romanization of the Berber name
  • Deraa (Province) - Unusual spelling? Should be Draa/Drâa/etc. in Arabic, or Dra in Berber
  • Hascora (Province) - Stands out a bit as a non-native name; I can't find the Arabic/Berber name for it - if one can't be found maybe Warzazat would be better?
  • Errif (Province) - Should be Rif (English); Ar-Rif/Al-Rif/Er-Rif/etc (Arabic) or Arrif/Arif(Berber)
    • This also doesn't cover the whole Rif area, which stretches all the way to Tangier in the west and Berkane in the east
    • Perhaps split Errif into two, combining the western half with Habat to form Western Rif and the eastern half with Garet to form Eastern Rif?
  • Habat (Province) - If not merged, the name should be Habt (الهبط)
  • Garet (province) - If not merged, I think the name in Arabic is Kart (كرت) (visible on this map)?
  • Azgar (Province) - Change to Rharb or Gharb after the plain/basin here? Or at least Azghar (أزغار), which appears to be the namesake of the province described by Ogilby?
    • Maybe move Al-Ma'mura (Mehdya) here?
    • Ogilby says that Larache (Al-'Ara'is) is part of Azgar, which would then necessitate moving Basra and Agla to Azgar/Rharb/Gharb as well
  • Chaus (Province) - a name from Ogilby; not sure what the origin of the name is
    • My inclination would be to maybe rename to Middle Atlas/Atlas Anammas/al-Atlas al Mutawassit) and move Tawrirt and Jrada (and Debddou?) to the Mers el-Kebir province
    • Might also split the large Tadla wasteland in half, with the northern part going to Chaus and the southern to Tadla
  • Tadla (province) - Very peculiar structure; made of three locations, one of which is detached from the rest
    • I'd move Bumalen Dadi to Tafilalt?
    • Possibly squeeze in Beni Mellal (as Hisn Day) in the southern half of Qasba Tadla
    • Maybe also Fqih Ben Salah (as Beni 'Amir) to the west?
    • Could also move Bzu (Bzou) and Demnat (Demnate) here, recreating the Tadla-Azilal region
  • Mers el-Kebir (province) - doesn't seem to contain the city of Mers el-Kebir (located in Wehran/Oran?)
    • Rename to Nedroma or Oujda?
  • Kasdir (province) - Rename to Ksour, after the mountain range that more or less lines up with these locations
  • Mitiji (province) - Name should be either Mitidja (English/French), Mitija/Mitijah/etc. (Arabic) or Mettijet (Berber)
  • Titteri (province) - missing its capital (Medea)
    • Split off eastern part of Milyana to create Medea and give it to Titteri
      • Could produce grain, wine or fruit
  • Baghai (province and location) - Khenchela seems to be the more important settlement?
  • Quasantinah (province) - typo, should match the location name

  • Z-Zdida - Assuming this is El Jadida, that name was only given in 1820. Before that the best name is probably Mazaghan (مَازِيغَن), which is attested since the 11th century according to Wiki
  • Iglliz - Should be Igiliz
  • Tagmadert - Not founded until 1550; Maybe Zagora would be better?
  • Bumalen Dadi (Boumalne Dades) - I think the Berber name is Bumal n Dads? (ⴱⵓⵎⴰⵍ ⵏ ⴷⴰⴷⵙ)
  • Imetgharen - I think the local Berber language (Shilha/Tacelhit) is Imtɣrn/Imtghrn
  • Tudgha - I assume this is a reference to the Todgha Gorge in lieu of Tinghir? Could alternatively use Goulmima as the location here?
  • Arish - I think this is referencing Er-Rich, but that city wasn't founded til the 16th or 17th century.
    • Could combine Arish and Imetgharen together and divide east-west into Errachidia/Imetgharen and Bouanane?
  • Moulay Bou Salim (Moulay Bousselham) - seems to date from the 16th century; not 100% sure of a good replacement, perhaps Souk El Arbaa?
  • Amergo'Ribat - Should just be Amergo; Amergou (French); Amir Ghu (أميرغو)
    • Might also be farther west - in the Agla province?
    • Perhaps split in two; with the west part joining Agla as Amergo; and the eastern part becoming Taounate (which dates back to the Almohad era)
  • Basra al-Hamra - was destroyed in the 10th c.; in definitive ruins by the 15th; also Basra is due west of Ouezzane/Wazzan, which doesn't line up on the map
    • Maybe this province should be Ouezzane/Wazzan? (hard to judge the north-south direction here)
  • Məknas - Should be Meknes or Maknās most likely
  • Baht - name of a river?
    • Oulmes or Tiddas seem to be in the location (or maybe in Thagia?), but no clear word on how old they are as settlements
  • Thagia - maybe an event to change the name to Moulay Bouazza?
  • Mrira - Change to Mrirt (or Mrirah if you're using the old name from the 9th c.)
  • Azro - Should be Azrou or Aẓru (another error in the Berber name on wiki)
  • Tit (modern Moulay Abdallah Amghar) - Should probably have a dot under the second T (تيط)
  • Aguz (modern Souira Kedima) - might be in the little hook of coast in As-Swaira (essaouira); also seems to have been called Qūz
  • Tefelfelt - Should be Tifelt?
  • Tefethne - Should be Tafedna?
  • Masa - Should be Massa (double s is in Berber, may be in Arabic too and just not marked)
  • Noul Lamta - change to Asrir or Guelmim?
  • Tamdoult - Could split eastern part off into Tata
    • Tata could produce dates
  • Tamdegost - I think this corresponds to (Lalla) Takerkoust?
  • Walila - Should be Walili (Volubilis, modern Moulay Idriss Zerhoun)?
  • Bu-l-awan (Boulaouane) - should be Bul'awan (بولعوان); I think it's a contraction of Bu al-'Awan?
  • Tazouda - is located in the Mritch (Melilla) province; change to Ras Kebdana?
  • Warzazat - could break western half into Ait Benhaddou - a ksar since the 11th c.
  • Taza/Jarsif - Taza and Jarsif (Guercif) are approximately east-west of one another, but this is perhaps not the case on the map (hard to tell without seeing the rivers, maybe Taza is just at the very southern edge of its location)?
  • Arshgul - rename to Honaine?
  • Tizgan (Tizgane) - maybe have an event that changes it to Chefchaouen (founded 1471) ( assuming it's within the borders here)
 
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I was wondering how would minorities be presented in Maghreb Al Awsat , because there isn't a culture with dominant majority over the region , and even today you would find a large group of Mzabs , kabyles and arabs in a city such as Tahert which was historically the capital of the Mzabi rustumids , the book Al Muqadima by ibn khaldun might show how the cultural construction of this region is since he started writing it in Tahert . And thank you for the accurate representation of that area since it doesn't get much love like europe or the middle east .
We're trying to put as much love into each region, it's only the availability of sources that makes the depiction more or less accurate. :)
 
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You can embargo the countries that control the locations connected by the corridors.
I suppose that this may not be a small leak xD

Unless it has been leaked before and by blind eyes failed to catch them
 
We already took a look into this, but kt has two issues:
1. We don't know where exactly they inhabited.
2. We don't know about their size, apart from most likely being a tiny minority.
Couldn't it be made so the Catholics in Tunisia are some sibling of Sardinian?I think it's a decent solution
 
1-Whether it will be possible to cross the African coast from Morocco to the Sahel region or only through oases.


2. When can we expect a thread about Iceland and Greenland
 
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Morocco starts in a very strong position, with Tlemcen close to being conquered or subjected; but it needs to be careful, as Castile might set its eyes upon its foothold in Iberia, and it has to manage the internal divisions of the Maghreb.
The battle of Rio Salado would only happen 3 years after the beginning of the game, iirc, and that was kind of a turning point for the Reconquista. After that, there would have been no more real Islamic attempts at reversing the Christian conquests.

I wonder if Morocco, assuming it plays its cards right, would have a way to reverse the fortunes of the Muslims in Iberia.
 
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Morocco starts in a very strong position, with Tlemcen close to being conquered or subjected; but it needs to be careful, as Castile might set its eyes upon its foothold in Iberia, and it has to manage the internal divisions of the Maghreb.
According to Wiki (lol), referencing O'Callaghan, in the Battle of Río Salado (1340) the Moroccans and Granadans had a significant force, outnumbering the Castillians and Portuguese, about 3:1. In the game, Castille seems to have a population equalling Portugal, Navarra, Aragon, Granada and Morocco combined.

I think you mentioned the Ghazis being their own thing in the Anatolia thread, so perhaps the Marinids have the same system?

The Granadans are said to have had some 10,000 core soldiers around that time, comprising of local Andalusi, their equipment similiar to those of the Christian knights, and a significant portion being the Ghazis "Volunteers of the Faith", a semi-autonomous military order made up of Zenata berber exiles and volunteers from the Marinids, serving as light cavalry. Would these Granadan 'Ghazis' be more professional/institutional compared to the Marinids?

The Ghazi would become very influential in Granada, essentially becoming THE military of Granada and their commanders becoming kingmakers, with the Emir having to curb their power later on.

On a side note, I assume the clay in Granada stands for their famous ceramics, and that clay by itself is not something that would represent the wealth of Granada accurately. Does this mean Granada will start with an advanced ceramics building and maybe a modifier to represent their unique value?

Granada also being in the Algerian market looks very strange and probably not that accurate, considering their proximity and relations with the Iberians and Marinids. Sevilla or Fez seems more fitting.



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One thing that always bugs me in EU4 is that the Maghreb is always conquered by AI Iberian states, whereas historically the region was mostly independent until the French invaded in the 1800s. Does this also happen in the current builds of Project Caesar, or is the game balanced such that North African states are more resilient to European aggression?
 
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For aspects involving spoken language I could see this, otherwise, it's one of the best examples of "culture ≠ language"
Is cultural group a confirmed thing or we are just using terms of EUIV?
 
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5- How come there are "Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian" cultures in the 1337? Isn't it a bit anachronistic? Even today, I'm not really sure if we can properly speak of Moroccan, or Algerian culture. Look ar the diversity of languages/cultures in this image
maybe could be nice to separate out some of the dialects shown on that map, like Jebli, eastern Morocco-western Algeria, Algerian Sahara etc. But at the end of the day mainstream Moroccan, Algerian and Tunisian dialects are definitely distinct despite similarities. Plus let's not forget that the Ottomans more or less followed these borders when carving out eyalets.
 
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Am wondering if Arabian cultures could use a set of colors similar to each other while Berbers use another. The colors of cultures are essential parts of ART presentation I suppose.
 
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We already took a look into this, but kt has two issues:
1. We don't know where exactly they inhabited.
2. We don't know about their size, apart from most likely being a tiny minority.
As for the locations, the article gives clues on them being far more isolated than the prosperous urban Christian communities- so probably a few in the less-populous coastal locations in Tunisia and Algeria, a few in Northwestern Morocco (where its said they had a significant impact on the language) and a smore significant number in the Aures mountains mentioned there

Also speaking of low population coastal locations, Tabarka should probably be redrawn to look better as a later Genovese exclave, and it's population at <2k seems ridiculously small. Even if the island town itself developed mostly under the Genovese, surely there were other villages nearby, enough for a population more in line with other coastal location?