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Tinto Maps #14 - 9th of August 2024 - Western Africa

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps, the day of the week for map nerds lovers! This week we will be taking a look at Western Africa! These lands were named historically in different ways, although probably the most widespread naming was Guinea, which also names the Gulf that makes for the southern limit of the region, with the Atlantic Ocean being to the west, the Sahara desert to the north, and the lands around Lake Chad making for the approximate eastern border.

With these regions, we’re also leaving the ‘Easy Mode Map-Making’ of Project Caesar, as getting comprehensive sources of information for 1337 for most of Sub-Saharan Africa is challenging, as the traditional historical record was oral, in contrast with the written records usual in Eurasia. In any case, we did our best to depict the rich history and geography of the region and its diversity, which is stunning. Let’s start, then!

Countries:
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The most important country, and one of the world's great powers, is the Empire of Mali, which in 1337 is at its zenit, still ruled by the infamous Mansa Mūsā. It controls not only the core lands of the Mandé-speaking peoples, but also holds the overlordship over Jolof, most of the fertile Niger river basin, and some of the most important Saharan outposts. To its south-east, the Mossi are organized in several polities (Ougadagou, Gwiriko, Yatenga, Boussouma, Tenkodogo, and Liptako). South into the coast, Kong, Dagbon, Bonoman, and Mankessim are polities ruled by the Dyula, the Dagbani, and the Akan (the last two). To the east, Fada N’gourma, Borgu, and Mamprugu connect with the lands of the Hausa, which rule from several city-states: Kebbi, Gobir, Zafara, Katsina, Daura, Kano, Rano, and Zazzau. Further to the east, the Empire of Kanem rules the lands around Lake Chad from its capital in Njimi, and over some of the Saharan corridors, making it the region's second wealthiest country. And finally, further to the south, there are the lands of the Nupe, the Yoruba (Oyo, Ife, Ijebu, Owo), the Edo (Benin), and the Igbo (Nri).

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynasties of the region are a mix of well-known ones, such as the Keita of Mali, the Ndiaye of Jolof, or the Sayfawa of Kanem, and randomly generated ones for the rest of the polities, as we don’t have good enough sources on who was ruling over most of them in 1337.

Locations:
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The locations of Western Africa. We’ve tried our best to find suitable locations, correct naming, etc., although I’m sure there might be plenty of feedback to apply.

Provinces:
Provinces.png


Areas:
Areas.png


Terrain:
Climate.png

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Vegetation.png

This week we have proper Terrain mapmodes at the release of the Tinto Maps… Not much to say about them, though, as the climate and vegetation are pretty straightforward, being divided into Arid and Tropical; while the vegetation goes from desert and sparse beside the Sahara, to increasingly more forested terrain, until reaching the tropical jungles by the coast. The topography is not very fragmented, with the Guinean Highlands and the Adamawa Plateau being the most important landmarks.

Natural Harbors:
Harbors.png

A new map mode this week, coming from the latest Tinto Talks! There are some decent natural harbors in the region, with Banana Islands (where Freetown would be founded), Elmina, and Calabar being the best ones.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

A beautiful map this week… I may repeat that we tried our best to approach the region, taking into account that this was the first African region we completed, around 3 years ago. When we review it, we may add some more diversity, as we have now some more tools than the ones we had back in time, but we think that it’s way best to read your feedback first, to make sure we are on the same page.

Religions:
Religion.png

Take this map as very WIP. The Sunni-Animism division is kind of accurate, with the expected division for 1337 (Islam would later on advance more to the South, but we think this is the best for this date). What we have yet to do is to divide the ‘Animism’ population into some of the regional variants; we already have plenty of data, but we also want to read your feedback on this first.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The goods of the region are quite diverse and very dependent on the geography. In the Saharan lands, there are plenty of locations with resources such as Salt, Copper, or Alum (regarding this resource, the lands to the north of Lake Chad make for the densest Alum hub in the world for 1337, something the historical sources talk about). Livestock is king in the Sahelian lands, while there are plenty of agricultural goods in the Niger river basin. The region is also full of luxury goods, of which Gold is the most relevant, as being the biggest supply of this metal to the Mediterranean and Europe in the Late Middle Ages, while also having others such as Ivory, Gems, or Spices (which in this region are portraying some goods such as kola nuts, or malagueta pepper). Finally, the coasts of the Gulf of Guinea have plenty of Fish. Maybe the only type of good that is not very abundant in the region is metals, as having some Iron, Tin, etc., but not much in comparison with other regions.

Markets:
Markets.png

Markets of the region, have an interesting distribution. The most important ones in 1337 are Niani, Kano, and Njimi, which are also connected to the Northern African markets, making it possible to get plenty of wealth by exporting well-demanded goods throughout the Sahara (for instance, exporting Gold or Alum for good money is a very viable strategy ATM). Later on, after the Age of Discovery, the coastal markets may get connected to other markets, making them more relevant, and maybe switching the power balance of the region from the North to the South, as historically happened (but take it as a ‘maybe’, not for granted, OFC!).

Population:
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Population of the region. We’ve improved a bit our tracking of the population data, to avoid further problems like the one we had with Germany. I can tell you that the total population of Western Africa is around 5.6M people, which is divided into 2.2M for the Sahel, and 3.3M for the coast of Guinea. You may very well notice that the hegemonic power here may be Mali, with around 700k people, but also that there are many more people not living under the rule of a polity, than living under it, which will make for interesting gameplay on how to deal with it (more about this in a later Tinto Talks, soon…).

And, speaking of that, I have the sad news that next Friday there is a bank holiday here in Spain, so there won’t be a Tinto Maps. The next one will be on Friday 23rd, and we will be taking a look at Eastern Africa! Until then, you may still stay tuned, as we will be replying to feedback, as usual, and we may have some informal maps incoming. Cheers!
 
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So considering that this is the thread for West Africa's feedback, I thought it would be appropriate to post the changes that the devs have made in splitting up animism into individual religions.

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In case anyone has suggestions for the religion setup, it will probably be more useful to the devs to have those suggestions here than in a separate thread.
The "Adamawa" religion should definitely be replaced. Probably split into several smaller, such as Jukun in the west and Chamba in the east.
 
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I still don't think Mali and most of the Sahel should be majority Muslim, or at least not majority Sunni. It's easier to argue that literati at the time were orthodox Muslims but a common comment about both the rulers and especially commoners in the state was that they practiced Islam differently or wrongly during the period beyond their coexistence with local pagans

Edit: somebody reminded me this is very much not the situation in Mali it seems they're running with state religion coloring as "primary" when there's hatching on the religious map

And Iṣẹṣe should be written with the diacritics or as "Isheshe". Otherwise the vast majority of players are going to come away saying it completely wrong which will bother me personally a lot. It also probably didn't cover all of modern Yorubaland at this point but there's no real sources on prior religion and few on the people so it is what it is
 
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I still don't think Mali and most of the Sahel should be majority Muslim, or at least not majority Sunni. It's easier to argue that literati at the time were orthodox Muslims but a common comment about both the rulers and especially commoners in the state was that they practiced Islam differently or wrongly during the period beyond their coexistence with local pagans

And Iṣẹṣe should be written with the diacritics or as "Isheshe". Otherwise the vast majority of players are going to come away saying it completely wrong which will bother me personally a lot. It also probably didn't cover all of modern Yorubaland at this point but there's no real sources on prior religion and few on the people so it is what it is
Yeah I agree. There was a muslim minority ruling a non-islamic majority and they practiced a syncretic form of Islam intertwining the rituals of the old traditions within the Islamic worldview, where deities become spirits etc. If there was a religious mechanic for West African Islamic syncretism that would be dope.
 
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There may be a discrepancy with the Warri location in the Niger Delta. Warri should be to the west and a bit south of Uvwie. Perhaps Warri should split off a new location for the Urhobo people, Ughelli, and possibly a location for Isoma-bou, the Ijaw city-state.

Also, Warri should probably have some Yoruba mixture to indicate the Yoruboid Itsekiri, the people of the Kingdom of Warri (Iwere). A Yoruba cultured SoP for the Itsekiri people could be considered as well.

Uvwie%2C_Delta_State.jpg



As a side note, Forcados could be called Burutu.
 
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I still don't think Mali and most of the Sahel should be majority Muslim, or at least not majority Sunni. It's easier to argue that literati at the time were orthodox Muslims but a common comment about both the rulers and especially commoners in the state was that they practiced Islam differently or wrongly during the period beyond their coexistence with local pagans

And Iṣẹṣe should be written with the diacritics or as "Isheshe". Otherwise the vast majority of players are going to come away saying it completely wrong which will bother me personally a lot. It also probably didn't cover all of modern Yorubaland at this point but there's no real sources on prior religion and few on the people so it is what it is
75% of the population of Mali is Animist, with only 25% Muslim. In some places, only the Upper Class (nobles, burghers, clergymen) are Sunni.
I honestly don't know why the map seems to show the opposite, but I trust them.
 
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View attachment 1173668
I mean... not like West Africa is that much smaller than the core area of China.
I am Chinese. After ignoring your map mistakes(Why do you always separate the taiwan??????), the overall area of West Africa is not much different from the core area of China. Considering that Nigeria is not included in this Chinese outline, the total area after adding Nigeria is not significantly different.
 
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The website he used to make this screenshot (thetruesize.com) gives you the borders of modern countries, so if you select China, you'll get the borders of the PRC.
Is this calculated based on actual military control? oh my god, there are only some ideological conflicts between us, but ultimately it's all about China
 
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Is this calculated based on actual military control? oh my god, there are only some ideological conflicts between us, but ultimately it's all about China
Huh? It just allows you to move around the borders of countries on a world map, to show how the land area is distorted the closer north or south you get.
 
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Area does not correlate to population very well. I doubt The Siberian 2/3 of Russia has anywhere in the ballpark as the population of China despite being bigger.
The current total population of Russia is about 170 million, while China had already reached 120 million in the Northern Song Dynasty by relying solely on the population of the core region. The estimated population reached over 200 million during the fall of the Ming Dynasty, and the total population was 460 million during the fall of the Qing Dynasty. So not to mention Siberia, even the population during the Soviet era cannot be compared to China.
 
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Huh? It just allows you to move around the borders of countries on a world map, to show how the land area is distorted the closer north or south you get.
I know that map distortion is caused by latitude, but in fact, I hope to see a game with a spherical map.
I am just dissatisfied with the incorrect boundaries of these websites :( , just like last time I was questioning why the population of the Deccan Plateau in India is so high.
No matter which side is Chinese, except for some political differences and ideological conflicts, we really hate that such things separate us from each other.
 
"Songhai" culture could probably be divided into a bunch of different cultures in a single culture group. If it isn't, then imo it should be renamed to "Ayneha", since that's the collective autonym for the Nilo-Saharan speakers of the Niger basin.


I think subtropical rainforests, like the ones in the Pontic and Caspian coasts, at the very least could be included under "jungle" perhaps, but I'm fine with the current arrangement, it was a genuine question.

View attachment 1173884
I'm wondering where the forests in Southeast Asia and India have gone
 
I’d also like for the Sao to be split up more, have that eastern cluster of locations be Sara cultured instead as that would be where their heartland is.
Not quite, the Sara live to the south of the Baguirmi, an area which is currently wasteland but might be opened up as they said they wanted to work on a map for the CAR. Actually Sao culture here represents Central Chadic peoples.
Finally as I said, please replace Bantoid with Ekoid in the west and Tikar in the east and that would be far more accurate.
Bantoid definitely needs split, but with Cross River (Efik-Ibibio) instead of Ekoid. The former is much larger and more relevant than the latter. Also in the center (the Cameroon highlands) there should be Grassfields peoples (which includes the Bamileke and Bamun).

Agree with most of your other stuff although offhand I do think Dyula pops should already exist in the area of Kong, the problem is with the political depicting a kingdom from a few centuries later.
 
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How will you handle the Isthmo-Colombian region? In EU4 the Muisca were portrayed horribly as one unified state, all Chibchan indigenous groups were made 'Muisca', the Miskito were part of Chibchan, 'Chibchan' exists in the first place (It's somewhat like putting all europeans, iranians and northern indians in one culture group called 'indo-european'.) and for some strange reason the Muisca are the Quechua religion. The latter doesn't make a lot of sense either; Ruler namelists for the animist religion have Muisca deities and figures but the Muisca weren't animist, in EU4 they are a religion of a people not even related to them in the slightest. Will these issues be fixed in the new game?
I hope you at least wait until the logs in South America ask about this
 
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Many people ask for historicity and offer to fill the "empty spaces" with micro-kingdoms. This worries me. Firstly, maybe a couple hundred new states will not affect productivity, but with this approach there will be thousands of them, and this will most likely already give a significant load. Secondly, it will be impossible to play it with great interest, how often have you united the HRI militarily? I've done it 1 time during the whole game and I'll say that playing in other parts of the world is more fun because coalitions don't stop you there. In addition, I believe that the region as a whole should be worked out evenly. You can't just take and work out the Yorubaland separately. Do you know what the whole of West Africa will look like if we take your suggestions?

Initially, I made a map of many tribes rather for fun, primarily for myself. But now I have worked on the errors, climbed various historical forums, and significantly increased the historicity of my map from 48.75% to 80-85%. If you find any errors, please let me know about them. The historicity is not complete, because in the jungle in 1337, people had not yet managed to move to some provinces in sufficient numbers to form states, one of these is Kong-Wattara, it should not exist at all at the beginning of the game. He and other states will historically arise there much, much later. The pirate state did not exist on the islands either, Africans did not sail so far from the coast. The names highlighted in the frame do not always indicate direct dependence or direct control, sometimes it is just some kind of community. Also, it is not yet possible to find out a more precise division of the states and provinces dependent on Mali, perhaps some of the divisions will appear only in the future, and some may be missing.

So, I am proud to present to you the most developed map of pre-European West Africa today in the entire Internet!

View attachment 1174894

edit: I made new version map
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As far as I know, Biafra was an Igbo regime in the coastal area.
 
As far as I know, Biafra was an Igbo regime in the coastal area.
Is this another small kingdom city that I haven't mapped? Even if it existed in the 14th century, it still won't fit on the map yet. I haven't drawn some pretty important independent Hausa-towns. The developers and I have settled the same peoples in South Africa in different places. The island of Madagascar turned out to be different for the developers. I need to study the materials more deeply in order to draw a new version of the whole of Africa. In addition, there was a migration of peoples in Africa at that time... and the various sources that I study contradict each other. And there are few sources, Africa is not the safest place to study. I will make a new version of the whole of Africa after I finish a large map of Sakhalin (before the new year I will make a separate thread for discussion, for sure someone will make a mod for super-developed Japan, and then with my map it will be easy to add Sakhalin to this mod), I will listen to the diaries of developers about both the Americas and the region Australia-Oceania (In Russia there are documents discussing the creation of colonies in some unusual places, for example, the Zaporozhye Cossacks wanted to make a colony in Texas and Cuba, and the well-known Alaska before 1825 was much larger and reached the borders of Spain, that is, to the viceroyalty of New Spain, which is now called Mexico. Several Canadian cities called Bella used to be Russian and were called cheat villages (Derevni Plutov), convicts were sent there).
 
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From yesterday's TT:

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Please split "Nigerian" into Volta-Niger and Benue-Congo. Language diversity should arguably be one of the difficulties of playing in the region and "Nigerian" is too semantically tied to a country. It would be like naming "East Slavic" Russian or "Berber" Algerian

Also it would activate a lot of Discourse that I never ever want to see or participate in if Nigerian is a language group and Hausa is a separate one
Since dialects have no gameplay impact I'd almost rather see each of (West to East):

Gbe, Yoruba, Edo, Igbo, and Nupe be in a Volta-Niger language group

and (less familiar with these)

Plateau, Jukun, Kainji, and Cross be in a Niger-Congo with Bantuoid which would be part of the Bantu group as well if that's possible if not the first four would be a fine division

As above, language diversity should be part of West Africa's challenges and making it harder to integrate, rule, and propagate various forms of control through language is an immersive way to make the region difficult. To avoid additional work these could be single dialect languages

I'm sure the other parts of this map could undergo similar division, I don't think the large language families of North and East Africa or Eurasia make much sense here, many of these languages did not have "dialects" that were mutually intelligible at this time
 
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From yesterday's TT:

View attachment 1213339


Since dialects have no gameplay impact I'd almost rather see each of (West to East):

Gbe, Yoruba, Edo, Igbo, and Nupe be in a Volta-Niger language group

and (less familiar with these)

Plateau, Jukun, Kainji, and Cross be in a Niger-Congo with Bantuoid which would be part of the Bantu group as well if that's possible if not the first four would be a fine division

As above, language diversity should be part of West Africa's challenges and making it harder to integrate, rule, and propagate various forms of control through language is an immersive way to make the region difficult. To avoid additional work these could be single dialect languages

I'm sure the other parts of this map could undergo similar division, I don't think the large language families of North and East Africa or Eurasia make much sense here, many of these languages did not have "dialects" that were mutually intelligible at this time
Agree 100%. I understand that splitting up the language map is going to make gameplay more challenging, and I want it anyway because this current map feels very gamey and immersion-breaking. It's essentially equivalent to calling all of Uralic, Romance, Germanic, Celtic etc single languages. I think it's reasonable to ask for given the religion granularity, and there's no mechanics that could ever be designed here like there could be with religions.

Senegambian, Mel, Kru, Kwa, and Saharan should ideally be entirely broken up and repurposed as language families. The devs made a mistake calling Bilala and Songhai Saharan. Songhai is best considered an isolate here - Nilo-Saharan, like the other macrofamilies of Africa, should not enter into the game, just like Indo-European. The language of the Bilala on the other hand is closely related to Baguirmi in the Bongo-Baguirmi branch of Central Sudanic.

Mande and Gur should have a few split off each: Dan, Soninke, Bobo and Gurunsi (including Kabiye and Tem) and Gurma. Gonja is not Gur, it's Kwa (it's a mistake). Bariba's Gur affiliation is unproven iirc. The diversity of the Mande family is huge, equivalent to Indo-European iirc. Bambara/Mandinka/Dyula/Kpelle/Kono and Mossi/Dagbani/Mamprusi work well as single languages imo.

Should go without saying that Bantu needs to be broken up into several languages.

Igala could work as a dialect of Yoruba, it's like a sister language as I understand. Maybe the Yoruba guy who was posting when this thread came out can weigh in here.
 
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"Songhai" culture could probably be divided into a bunch of different cultures in a single culture group. If it isn't, then imo it should be renamed to "Ayneha", since that's the collective autonym for the Nilo-Saharan speakers of the Niger basin.


I think subtropical rainforests, like the ones in the Pontic and Caspian coasts, at the very least could be included under "jungle" perhaps, but I'm fine with the current arrangement, it was a genuine question.

View attachment 1173884
The Songhai people (autonym: Ayneha) are an ethnolinguistic group in West Africa who speak the various Songhai languages. Their history and lingua franca is linked to the Songhai Empirewhich dominated the western Sahel in the 15th and 16th century. Predominantly adherents of Islam, the Songhai are primarily located in Nigerand Mali. Historically, the term "Songhai" did not denote an ethnic or linguistic identity but referred to the ruling caste of the Songhay Empire known as the Songhaiborai.[7] However, the correct term used to refer to this group of people collectively by the natives is "Ayneha".[8][9] Although some speakers in Mali have also adopted the name Songhay as an ethnic designation,[10] other Songhay-speaking groups identify themselves by other ethnic terms such as Zarma (or Djerma, the largest subgroup) or Isawaghen. The dialect of Koyraboro Senni spoken in Gao is unintelligible to speakers of the Zarma dialect of Niger, according to at least one report.[11] The Songhay languages are commonly taken to be Nilo-Saharan but this classification remains controversial: Dimmendaal (2008) believes that for now it is best considered an independent language family.[12]
From Wikipedia.
 
Similar logic should apply to the "berber language". It should be made a language family instead and split between the guanche, tuareg and northern berber "languages".
 
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