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Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
Countries.png

Colored Wastelands.png

The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

Ilkhanate.png

And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
Locations.png

Location 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png


Provinces:
Provinces.png


Areas:
Areas.png


Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
Harbor.png

You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
Religion.png

Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
Markets.png

This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png

Population 5.png

The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

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Okay, I'm planning to make three-part critique on Georgian parts of this map, but I won't promise on doing that, cause I mightn't be able to follow up on it. I've made some notes last Saturday, but nothing major, it was very shallow. Today I'll try to make much more in depth critique. Nevertheless, here's a map I made with help of Google Earth.
P.S. I'm not native English speaker so my language skills are nowhere near perfect, so sorry for that in advance !
Opera Snapshot_2024-09-20_215613_earth.google.com.png

So, I've mentioned that I'd make a three part critique about Georgian parts of "mysterious" game Tinto team is working on. As u might've already noticed, I've chopped my dear homeland down into three Historical parts (learned that from Mongols lol), but I didn't make those borders up, Georgia has historically been divided between these three parts, which is not only Geographical, but also cultural, political and even linguistical one.

Today I'll Talk about Lazeti (also known as Chaneti, Lazona, Lazica or Lazistan) and South Georgia (Also known as Upper Kartli, Samtske, Meskheti and in Medieval times, Tao-Klarjeti). South Georgia is very mountainous (like rest of Georgia lol) and cold, it's mostly located on Lesser Caucasus. Here is map of historic-cultural provinces of it:
Opera Snapshot_2024-09-20_205129_earth.google.com.png

as u can see, this part of historic Georgia is divided between many mini-provinces (called "Mkhares" or "Kutkhes" in Georgian) thanks to it being mountainous. We'll see similar trends in other parts of Georgia as well. These little provinces are mostly marked by mountain ranges and rivers that flow through them. There are Two main rivers here - Çoruh (Chorokhi) and Kura (Mtkvari). Chorokhi flows through Speri (Ispir), Parkhali, Klarjeti and between borders of historic Lazeti and Machakhela (Part of Achara) and reaches the black see just south of Batumi. Mtkvari Starts in Kola and flows through Artaani, Erusheti, Javakheti, Meskheti and tori until it arrives at East Georgia. This as well as mountain range between them is how South Georgia is divided into two. West Part of this region in much more humid, deeply forested and mountainous. It is mainly composed of many small tributary streams of Chorokhi river. Nature here is stunning, that said, it's not very fertile so resources that are in this region are: Fruit, Fish and Lumber, much of population here have historically been hunters and fishers. In this aspect I agree with Tinto team. This Geographical features made this parts least attractive for migration that's why after Çildir Eyalet was established in 1578, it stayed Culturally overwhelmingly Georgian. While eastern parts of this region is very continental and sparse. mostly plateau, perfect for animal grazing. That's why Kurdish and Turkic sheep and cattle herders were attracted by it and demographic picture changed dramatically in 300 years it's been under Ottoman rule. I think livestock would be main recourse everywhere here except for Meskheti (Akhaltsikhe), where wheat makes much more sense.

P.S Three red circles next to each other on the map are three parts of historical Tao: Parkhali, Imier Tao and Amier Tao.

What doesn't make sense on the map is population distribution. 17k is way too few for Akhaltsikhe, it was center of whole southern Georgia, Most fertile part of it and closest to Eastern and Western Georgia. Imo, population here should be around 40-50k. Akhalkalaki (Javakheti) population on other hand it too high. There were only a few population centres there : Akhalkalaki, Khertvisi and Vardzia, other than that there were many small villages with only a few households mostly Javakh shepherds, so imo population should be around 10-20 k. Other than these two, population density is pretty reasonable everywhere else except for "Khikhani", which is called "Khikheni" for some reason lol. So Khikheni here unites two historic regions of Achara (Ajara) and Shavsheti (Şavşat, Imerkhevi) which is, to my opinion, BS, cause these two are devided by Shavsheti mountain range, therefore I think u should divide this location in two different locations Shavsheti and Khikhani (not Khikheni). Khikhani was center of Ajara where from it was ruled by Abuseridze noble family (nice touch Tinto team!). 54 k population also doesn't make sense. Even today mountainous Achara doesn't have 50k population (even though my muslim brethren are reproducing like rabbits haha), it wouldn't have at the time ether. Imo population numbers should be around 10-20 k in Ajara and 5-10k in Shavsheti. So if u decide on not dividing them into two, it should be around 25-30k in both of them.

To further prove my point about population in Javakheti (Akhalkalaki) and Meskheti (Akhaltsikhe) I'll use the following map:
Map_of_Gurjistan_vilayet_in_1595_(georgian_version).png


So this map shows cultural and demographic aspects of Ottoman Document called "Grand register of Eyalet of Gürcistan" it's practically a "Doomsday book" of Ottomans. After annexation of Satskhe-Athabegete Turks counted households of newly annexed South-East Georgia (On map) for taxation purposes in 1595. So Georgia has been through by Tamerlane, Persians, Aq-Qoyunlu, Qara-Qoyunlu, Ottomans and Countless civil wars between 1337-1595 and Meskhetian Population count stayed pretty high nevertheless, while Javakhetian was pretty low. (I'll return to this map later).

Lets return back to locations. If we don't count "Khikheni" it's almost perfect. It would be good if added Kola near Ardahan (Artaani) but if not, personnally, I won't mind. Also pls add Tori location between Gori and Akhaltsikhe (look on map 2) it was ruled by Toreli family at the time and was part of kingdom of Georgia rather than Samtskhe-Athabegete (later it became part of it anyway) It woulf be mountainous and forested place. If u renamed some locations into Georgian toponyms it would be better. Ardahan - Artaani, Oltu - Oltisi, Tortum - Tortomi, Ispir - Speri. Regarding Ispir - It was part of Samtske-Athabegete at the time. Only Athabeg Mzechabuk gave it up to Ottomans in early 1500-ies. So was Kars. Athabegete owned Other parts of South Georgia as well, except for Panakserti and Tortomi which were ruled by Panaskerteli (Aspanidze) family, loyal to Kings of Georgia. A little trivia here - After Samtske was annexed by Ottomans in 1578 and Islamized in 1628, Panaskereli family moved to Inner Kartli (Shida Kartli) and became Tsitsishvili family, one of the most powerful nobles of east Georgia up to 20th century. Pls alter Panaskerti and Tortomi location shapes to fit the following map:

here's political map of Samtske-Athabegate in 13th century:
Map–Principality_of_Samtskhe_till_c.1325–ka.svg.png

I know that because it's in Georgian script (Tolkienian Elvish gibberish) most of y'all won't understand it, so I'll try to illustrate it on EU5 location map. Oh sorry, did I say "EU 5"? I meant location map of unknown game with code name "Project Caesar". here it is :

Location 2.png
little note here: Orange stripes are Samtske and Red are Georgia.

I Don't know If Khupati and Rize were part of Trapizonian Empire at the time, but later they did become part of Athabegate.

Plus here is altered location map by me:

Location 2 (1).png


Batumi should be the only direct pass between south Georgia and West Georgia. Meskhetian range blocks out these two from each other. but there should be a pass between Khikhani and Akhaltsikhe.

Okay so about province map, the borders look good and all, but why is Western South Georgia called "Ciildir" for? Firstly Ciildir reads as "Jeeldir" in English, when it should be read as "Childir", a proper spelling for it would be "Çıldır". Secondly Childir is Turkish name for Chrdili (meaning shadow in Georgian) lake which is located in tomogvi location in eastern south Georgia (so province is named after a lake which it not even in it lol). So calling Western South Georgia "Childir" is BS. I'd rather of called that province either "Klarjeti" or "Tao-Klarjeti". That are way more proper and historical.

Last part of my critique might be the most controversial part of it and I won't be surprised if it is, because I can't be certain about those issues, so take it with a grain of salt, as it is mostly speculations. are u ready?

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

It's about Ethnic composition of south Georgia (Oh boy).

Sadly there were no ethnic censuses back in 14th century so being certain about these issues is impossible. So we wonder how can we determine who lived there. Well there are couple of methods, but even after using them this issue still stays unresolved.

Fist method: Remember when I said that we would return to map 3? well we did. Ottoman census didn't write down ethnicity of people they taxed, but what they did write down was their names. So some historians sat down and analyzed those names and as it turs out 95% of folks in Javakheti, Meskheti and Artaani had "Georgian sounding names"(Red dots on the map 3) , while the opposite was true for those living in near Oltisi (Tao), vast majority had "Armenian sounding names"(Blue dots on the map 3). I know it sounds like BS that Reddit "intellectuals" would fight over, maybe because it is, but still, it's some evidence.


Second method: Toponymics.

image (1).png


So here is map of toponymics of south Georgian place names that were Turkified by Kemalists in 1920is. as you can see in Klarjeti, Artaani, Erusheti, Chrdili, Shavsheti and Parkhali (view map 2) have overwhelmingly Georgian and Laz names, while Those in Tao, Speri and Kola (Gole), on the other hand, have Armenian names. Historians have three theories about ethnic backgrounds people in these locations might have had. First - People here were Eastern Orthodox Armenians. Second - People here were Georgianized Armenians, who were Georgianized after Bagrationi Kings and Georgian monks arrived here in 9th century (much like Wends and Germans). Third - People here were just descendants of Georgians who fled Arabs with Bagrationi dynasty and monks in 9th century and Armenian toponymics are just leftovers of 700 hundred year Greater Armenian rule. Truth is probably synthesis of these three. what I'd like to add is that probably number of Lazs, Pontic Greeks and Georgian Jews also lived all around South Georgia.

P.S. About Hamamshen. All Georgian and Greek souces are silent about it, not because it didn't exist, but probably because Trapizonians and Georgians didn't care enough to menintion it. It was Probably vassal to ether Trapizion or Georgia at the time. here is a map of where, according to toponymics, it might have been.
image (1).png


and I'd divide Rize between Athina, Hamamshen (Zuga in Laz and Georgian) and Rize locations.

That seems that it's all for now. This was my perspective on south Georgia, feel free to tear my arguments apart. Thanks for dedicating my analysis your precious time!

One the ending note, I've decided to edit in a picture of Georgian Javakh villagers from 1896.
Javakhetians_._ჯავახები_._Джавахи_(1896).jpg


P.s. here is South Georgian Princely (Tavadi) family name list:
  • Abazadze
  • Abuseridze
  • Akhaltsikheli
  • Amatakidze
  • Amilakhvari
  • Andzaveli
  • Aspanidze
  • Avalishvili
  • Bedzhanishvili
  • Diasamidze
  • Dolenjashvili
  • Dukidze
  • Gogebashvili
  • Gogorishvili
  • Iazonishvili
  • Inasaridze
  • Jakeli
  • Kalmakheli
  • Kavkasidze
  • Khurtsidze
  • Kopadze
  • Lasuridze
  • Muskhelishvili
  • Oladashvili
  • Panaskerteli
  • Prodiani
  • Rcheulishvili
  • Shalikashvili
  • Slesari
  • Spasalari
  • Taktiridze
  • Tmogveli
  • Toreli
  • Tukhareli
  • Turmanidze
  • Tsikhisjvareli
  • Uznadze
  • Zedginidze
 
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Okay, I'm planning to make three-part critique on Georgian parts of this map, but I won't promise on doing that, cause I mightn't be able to follow up on it. I've made some notes last Saturday, but nothing major, it was very shallow. Today I'll try to make much more in depth critique. Nevertheless, here's a map I made with help of Google Earth.
P.S. I'm not native English speaker so my language skills are nowhere near perfect, so sorry for that in advance ! View attachment 1190257
So, I've mentioned that I'd make a three part critique about Georgian parts of mysterious game Tinto team is working on. As u might've already noticed, I've chopped my dear homeland into three Historical parts (learned that from Mongols lol), but I didn't made those borders up, Georgia has historically been divided between these three parts, which is not only Geographical, but also cultural, political and even linguistical.

Today I'll Talk about Lazeti (also known as Chaneti, Lazona, Lazica or Lazistan) and South Georgia (Also known as Upper Kartli, Samtske, Meskheti and in Medieval times, Tao-Klarjeti). South Georgia is very mountainous (like rest of Georgia lol) and cold, it's mostly located on Lesser Caucasus. Here is map of historic-cultural provinces of it: View attachment 1190261
as u can see, this part of historic Georgia is divided between many mini-provinces (called "Mkhares" or "Kutkhes" in Georgian) thanks to it being mountainous. We'll see similar trends in other parts of Georgia as well. these little provinces are mostly marked by mountain ranges and rivers that flow through them. here are Two main rivers here - Çoruh (Chorokhi) and Kura (Mtkvari). Chorokhi flows through Speri (Ispir), Parkhali, Klarjeti and on borders of historic Lazeti and Machakhela (Part of Achara) and reaches the black see just south of Batumi. Mtkvari Starts in Kola and flows through Artaani, Erusheti, Javakheti, Meskheti and tori until it arrives at East Georgia. This as well as mountain range between them is how South Georgia is divided into two. West Part of this region in much more humid, deeply forested and mountainous. It is mainly composed of many small tributary streams of Chorokhi river. Nature here is stunning, that said, it's not very fertile so resources that are in this region are: Fruit, Fish and Lumber, much of population here have historically been hunters and fishers. In this aspect I agree with Tinto team. This Geographical features made this parts least attractive for migration that's why after Çildir Eyalet was established in 1578 it stayed Culturally overwhelmingly Georgian. While eastern parts of this region is very continental and sparse. mostly plateau. That's why Kurdish and Turkic sheep and cattle herders were attracted by it and demographic picture changed dramatically in 300 years it's been under Ottoman rule. I think livestock would be main recourse everywhere here except for Meskheti (Akhaltsikhe), where wheat makes sense.

P.S Three red circles next to each other on the map are three parts of historical Tao: Parkhali, Imier Tao and Amier Tao.

What doesn't make sense on the map is population distribution. 17k is way too few for Akhaltsikhe, it was center of whole southern Georgia, Most fertile part of it and closest to Eastern and Western Georgia. Imo, population here should be around 40-50k. Akhalkalaki (Javakheti) population on other hand it too high. There were only a few population centres there : Akhalkalaki, Khertvisi and Vardzia, other than that there were many small villages with only a few households mostly Javakh shepherds, so imo population should be around 10-20 k. other than these two population density is reasonable everywhere else except for "Khikhani", which is called "Khikheni" for some reason lol. So Khikheni here unites two historic regions of Achara (Ajara) and Shavsheti (Şavşat, Imerkhevi) which is, to my opinion, BS, cause these two are devided by Shavsheti mountain range, therefore I think u should divide this location in two different locations Shavsheti and Khikhani (not Khikheni), Khikheni was center of Ajara where from it was ruled by Abuseridze noble family (nice touch Tinto team!). 54 k population also doesn't make sense. Even today mountainous Achara doesn't have 50k population (even though my muslim brethren are reproducing like rabbits haha), it wouldn't have at the time ether. Imo population numbers should be around 10-20 k in Ajara and 5-10k in Shavsheti. So if u decide on not dividing them into two, it should be around 25-30k in both of them.

To further prove my point about population in Javakheti (Akhalkalaki) and Meskheti (Akhaltsikhe) I'll use the following map: View attachment 1190268

So this map shows cultural and demographic aspects of Ottoman Document called "Grand register of Eyalet of Gürcistan" it's practically a "Doomsday book" of Ottomans. After annexation of Satskhe-Athabegete Turks counted households of newly annexed South-East Georgia (On map) for taxation purposes in 1595. So Georgia has been through by Tamerlane, Persians, Aq-Qoyunlu, Qara-Qoyunlu, Ottomans and Countless civil wars between 1337-1595 and Meskhetian Population count stayed pretty high nevertheless, while Javakhetian was pretty low. (I'll return to this map later).

Lets return to locations. If we don't count "Khikheni" it's almost perfect. It would be good if added Kola near Ardahan (Artaani) but if not, personnally, I won't mind. Also pls add Tori location between Gori and Akhaltsikhe (look on map 2) it was ruled by Toreli family at the time and was part of kingdom of Georgia rather than Samtskhe-Athabegete (later it became part of it anyway). If u renamed some locations into Georgian toponyms it would be better. Ardahan - Artaani, Oltu - Oltisi, Tortum - Tortomi, Ispir - Speri. Regarding Ispir - It was part of Samtske-Athabegete at the time. Only Athabeg Mzechabuk gave it up to Ottomans in early 1500-ies. So was Kars. Athabegete as well owned Other parts of South Georgia, except for Panakserti and Tortomi which were ruled by Panaskerteli (Aspanidze) family, loyal to Kings of Georgia. A little trivia here - After Samtske was annexed by Ottomans in 1578 and Islamized in 1625, Panaskereli family moved to Inner Kartli (Shida Kartli) and became Tsitsishvili family, one of the most powerful nobles of east Georgia up to 20th century. Pls alter Panaskerti and Tortomi location shapes to fit the following map:

here's political map of Samtske-Athabegate in 13th century:
View attachment 1190276
I know that because it's in Georgian script (Tolkienian Elvish gibberish) most of y'all won't understand it, so I'll try to illustrate it on EU5 location map. Oh sorry, did I say "EU 5"? I meant location map of unknown game with code name "Project Caesar". here it is :

View attachment 1190279 little note here: Orange stripes are Samtske and Red are Georgia.

I Don't know If Khupati and Rize were part of Trapizonian Empire at the time, but later they did become part of Athabegate.

Plus here is altered location map by me:

View attachment 1190280

Batumi should be the only direct pass between south Georgia and West Georgia. Meskhetian range blocks out these two from each other. but there should be a pass between Khikhani and Akhaltsikhe.

Okay so about province map, the borders look good and all, but why is Western South Georgia called "Ciildir" for? Firstly Ciildir reads as "Jeeldir" in English, when it should be read as "Childir", a proper spelling for it would be "Çıldır". Secondly Childir is Turkish name for Chrdili (meaning shadow in Georgian) lake which is located in tomogvi location in eastern south Georgia (so province is named after a lake which it not even in it lol). So calling Western South Georgia "Childir" is BS. I'd rather of called that province either "Klarjeti" or "Tao-Klarjeti". That are way more proper and historical.

Last part of my critique might be the most controversial part of it and I won't be surprised if it is, because I can't be certain about those issues, so take it with a grain of salt, as it is mostly speculations. are u ready?

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

It's about Ethnic composition of south Georgia (Oh boy).

Sadly there were no ethnic censuses back in 14th century so being certain about these issues is impossible. So we wonder how can we determine who lived there. Well there are couple of methods, but even after using them this issue still stays unresolved.

Fist method: Remember when I said that we would return to map 3? well we did. Ottoman census didn't write down ethnicity of people they taxed, but what they did write down was their names. So some historians sat down and analyzed those names and as it turs out 95% of folks in Javakheti, Meskheti and Artaani had "Georgian sounding names"(Red dots on the map 3) , while the opposite was true for those living in near Oltisi (Tao), vast majority had "Armenian sounding names"(Blue dots on the map 3). I know it sounds like BS that Reddit "intellectuals" would fight over, maybe because it is, but still, it's some evidence.


Second method: Toponymics.

View attachment 1190294

So here is map of toponymics map of south Georgian place names that were Turkified by Kemalists in 1920is. as you can see in Klarjeti, Artaani, Erusheti, Chrdili, Shavsheti and Parkhali (view map 2) have overwhelmingly Georgian and Laz names, while Those in Tao, Speri and Kola (Gole), on the other hand, have Armenian names. Historians have three theories about ethnic backgrounds people in these locations might have had. First - People here were Eastern Orthodox Armenians. Second - People here were Georgianized Armenians, who were Georgianized after Bagrationi Kings and Georgian monks arrived here in 9th century (much like Wends and Germans). Third - People here were just descendants of Georgians who fled Arabs with Bagrationi dynasty and monks in 9th century and Armenian toponymics are just leftovers of 700 hundred year Greater Armenian rule. Truth is probably synthesis of these three. what I'd like to add is that probably number of Lazs, Pontic Greeks and Georgian Jews also lived all around South Georgia.

P.S. About Hamamshen. All Georgian and Greek souces are silent about it, not because it didn't exist, but probably because Trapizonians and Georgians didn't care enough to menintion it. It was Probably vassal to ether Trapizion or Georgia at the time. here is a map of where, according to toponymics, it might have been.View attachment 1190299

and I'd divide Rize between Athina, Hamamshen and Rize locations.

That seems that it's all for now. This was my perspective on south Georgia, feel free to tear my arguments apart. Thanks for dedicating my analysis your precious time!

P.s. here is South Georgian Princely (Tavadi) family name list: Abazadze, Abuseridze, Akhaltsikheli Amatakidze, Amilakhvari, Andzaveli, Aspanidze, Avalishvili, Bedzhanishvili, Diasamidze, Dolenjashvili, Dukidze, Gogebashvili, Gogorishvili, Iazonishvili, Inasaridze, Jakeli, Kalmakheli, Kavkasidze, Khurtsidze, Kopadze, Lasuridze, Muskhelishvili, Oladashvili, Panaskerteli, Rcheulishvili, Shalikashvili, Slesari, Tatkiridze, Toreli, Tukhareli, Turmanidze, Uznadze, Zedginidze.

While I mostly agree with you, according to my research Khupati and Rize should owned by Samsthke. And I too believe Rize should splitted to 2 (Rize and Atina) (if no more), both owned by Samsthke. I'm also not sure about Samsthke owning Kars. Are you saying that beacuse that map shows it owns Kars or you have other sources too? What I could find (not much) says otherwise. Some maps I could find also wasn't including Kars

Screenshot_20240918_200334_Drive.png
1000326480.jpg

Mkhargerdzeli = Zakarids = current Armenia's ruler dynasty

My suggestions about Anatolia and Samsthke (basically just explaining Khupati and Rize, I forgot about İspir/Speri and later mentioned it in this thread): https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/tinto-maps-7-anatolia-feedback.1702644/post-29872811
 
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Okay, I'm planning to make three-part critique on Georgian parts of this map, but I won't promise on doing that, cause I mightn't be able to follow up on it. I've made some notes last Saturday, but nothing major, it was very shallow. Today I'll try to make much more in depth critique. Nevertheless, here's a map I made with help of Google Earth.
P.S. I'm not native English speaker so my language skills are nowhere near perfect, so sorry for that in advance ! View attachment 1190257
So, I've mentioned that I'd make a three part critique about Georgian parts of mysterious game Tinto team is working on. As u might've already noticed, I've chopped my dear homeland down into three Historical parts (learned that from Mongols lol), but I didn't made those borders up, Georgia has historically been divided between these three parts, which is not only Geographical, but also cultural, political and even linguistical.

Today I'll Talk about Lazeti (also known as Chaneti, Lazona, Lazica or Lazistan) and South Georgia (Also known as Upper Kartli, Samtske, Meskheti and in Medieval times, Tao-Klarjeti). South Georgia is very mountainous (like rest of Georgia lol) and cold, it's mostly located on Lesser Caucasus. Here is map of historic-cultural provinces of it: View attachment 1190261
as u can see, this part of historic Georgia is divided between many mini-provinces (called "Mkhares" or "Kutkhes" in Georgian) thanks to it being mountainous. We'll see similar trends in other parts of Georgia as well. These little provinces are mostly marked by mountain ranges and rivers that flow through them. here are Two main rivers here - Çoruh (Chorokhi) and Kura (Mtkvari). Chorokhi flows through Speri (Ispir), Parkhali, Klarjeti and on borders of historic Lazeti and Machakhela (Part of Achara) and reaches the black see just south of Batumi. Mtkvari Starts in Kola and flows through Artaani, Erusheti, Javakheti, Meskheti and tori until it arrives at East Georgia. This as well as mountain range between them is how South Georgia is divided into two. West Part of this region in much more humid, deeply forested and mountainous. It is mainly composed of many small tributary streams of Chorokhi river. Nature here is stunning, that said, it's not very fertile so resources that are in this region are: Fruit, Fish and Lumber, much of population here have historically been hunters and fishers. In this aspect I agree with Tinto team. This Geographical features made this parts least attractive for migration that's why after Çildir Eyalet was established in 1578, it stayed Culturally overwhelmingly Georgian. While eastern parts of this region is very continental and sparse. mostly plateau. That's why Kurdish and Turkic sheep and cattle herders were attracted by it and demographic picture changed dramatically in 300 years it's been under Ottoman rule. I think livestock would be main recourse everywhere here except for Meskheti (Akhaltsikhe), where wheat makes sense.

P.S Three red circles next to each other on the map are three parts of historical Tao: Parkhali, Imier Tao and Amier Tao.

What doesn't make sense on the map is population distribution. 17k is way too few for Akhaltsikhe, it was center of whole southern Georgia, Most fertile part of it and closest to Eastern and Western Georgia. Imo, population here should be around 40-50k. Akhalkalaki (Javakheti) population on other hand it too high. There were only a few population centres there : Akhalkalaki, Khertvisi and Vardzia, other than that there were many small villages with only a few households mostly Javakh shepherds, so imo population should be around 10-20 k. other than these two population density is reasonable everywhere else except for "Khikhani", which is called "Khikheni" for some reason lol. So Khikheni here unites two historic regions of Achara (Ajara) and Shavsheti (Şavşat, Imerkhevi) which is, to my opinion, BS, cause these two are devided by Shavsheti mountain range, therefore I think u should divide this location in two different locations Shavsheti and Khikhani (not Khikheni), Khikheni was center of Ajara where from it was ruled by Abuseridze noble family (nice touch Tinto team!). 54 k population also doesn't make sense. Even today mountainous Achara doesn't have 50k population (even though my muslim brethren are reproducing like rabbits haha), it wouldn't have at the time ether. Imo population numbers should be around 10-20 k in Ajara and 5-10k in Shavsheti. So if u decide on not dividing them into two, it should be around 25-30k in both of them.

To further prove my point about population in Javakheti (Akhalkalaki) and Meskheti (Akhaltsikhe) I'll use the following map: View attachment 1190268

So this map shows cultural and demographic aspects of Ottoman Document called "Grand register of Eyalet of Gürcistan" it's practically a "Doomsday book" of Ottomans. After annexation of Satskhe-Athabegete Turks counted households of newly annexed South-East Georgia (On map) for taxation purposes in 1595. So Georgia has been through by Tamerlane, Persians, Aq-Qoyunlu, Qara-Qoyunlu, Ottomans and Countless civil wars between 1337-1595 and Meskhetian Population count stayed pretty high nevertheless, while Javakhetian was pretty low. (I'll return to this map later).

Lets return to locations. If we don't count "Khikheni" it's almost perfect. It would be good if added Kola near Ardahan (Artaani) but if not, personnally, I won't mind. Also pls add Tori location between Gori and Akhaltsikhe (look on map 2) it was ruled by Toreli family at the time and was part of kingdom of Georgia rather than Samtskhe-Athabegete (later it became part of it anyway). If u renamed some locations into Georgian toponyms it would be better. Ardahan - Artaani, Oltu - Oltisi, Tortum - Tortomi, Ispir - Speri. Regarding Ispir - It was part of Samtske-Athabegete at the time. Only Athabeg Mzechabuk gave it up to Ottomans in early 1500-ies. So was Kars. Athabegete as well owned Other parts of South Georgia, except for Panakserti and Tortomi which were ruled by Panaskerteli (Aspanidze) family, loyal to Kings of Georgia. A little trivia here - After Samtske was annexed by Ottomans in 1578 and Islamized in 1628, Panaskereli family moved to Inner Kartli (Shida Kartli) and became Tsitsishvili family, one of the most powerful nobles of east Georgia up to 20th century. Pls alter Panaskerti and Tortomi location shapes to fit the following map:

here's political map of Samtske-Athabegate in 13th century:
View attachment 1190276
I know that because it's in Georgian script (Tolkienian Elvish gibberish) most of y'all won't understand it, so I'll try to illustrate it on EU5 location map. Oh sorry, did I say "EU 5"? I meant location map of unknown game with code name "Project Caesar". here it is :

View attachment 1190279 little note here: Orange stripes are Samtske and Red are Georgia.

I Don't know If Khupati and Rize were part of Trapizonian Empire at the time, but later they did become part of Athabegate.

Plus here is altered location map by me:

View attachment 1190280

Batumi should be the only direct pass between south Georgia and West Georgia. Meskhetian range blocks out these two from each other. but there should be a pass between Khikhani and Akhaltsikhe.

Okay so about province map, the borders look good and all, but why is Western South Georgia called "Ciildir" for? Firstly Ciildir reads as "Jeeldir" in English, when it should be read as "Childir", a proper spelling for it would be "Çıldır". Secondly Childir is Turkish name for Chrdili (meaning shadow in Georgian) lake which is located in tomogvi location in eastern south Georgia (so province is named after a lake which it not even in it lol). So calling Western South Georgia "Childir" is BS. I'd rather of called that province either "Klarjeti" or "Tao-Klarjeti". That are way more proper and historical.

Last part of my critique might be the most controversial part of it and I won't be surprised if it is, because I can't be certain about those issues, so take it with a grain of salt, as it is mostly speculations. are u ready?

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It's about Ethnic composition of south Georgia (Oh boy).

Sadly there were no ethnic censuses back in 14th century so being certain about these issues is impossible. So we wonder how can we determine who lived there. Well there are couple of methods, but even after using them this issue still stays unresolved.

Fist method: Remember when I said that we would return to map 3? well we did. Ottoman census didn't write down ethnicity of people they taxed, but what they did write down was their names. So some historians sat down and analyzed those names and as it turs out 95% of folks in Javakheti, Meskheti and Artaani had "Georgian sounding names"(Red dots on the map 3) , while the opposite was true for those living in near Oltisi (Tao), vast majority had "Armenian sounding names"(Blue dots on the map 3). I know it sounds like BS that Reddit "intellectuals" would fight over, maybe because it is, but still, it's some evidence.


Second method: Toponymics.

View attachment 1190294

So here is map of toponymics map of south Georgian place names that were Turkified by Kemalists in 1920is. as you can see in Klarjeti, Artaani, Erusheti, Chrdili, Shavsheti and Parkhali (view map 2) have overwhelmingly Georgian and Laz names, while Those in Tao, Speri and Kola (Gole), on the other hand, have Armenian names. Historians have three theories about ethnic backgrounds people in these locations might have had. First - People here were Eastern Orthodox Armenians. Second - People here were Georgianized Armenians, who were Georgianized after Bagrationi Kings and Georgian monks arrived here in 9th century (much like Wends and Germans). Third - People here were just descendants of Georgians who fled Arabs with Bagrationi dynasty and monks in 9th century and Armenian toponymics are just leftovers of 700 hundred year Greater Armenian rule. Truth is probably synthesis of these three. what I'd like to add is that probably number of Lazs, Pontic Greeks and Georgian Jews also lived all around South Georgia.

P.S. About Hamamshen. All Georgian and Greek souces are silent about it, not because it didn't exist, but probably because Trapizonians and Georgians didn't care enough to menintion it. It was Probably vassal to ether Trapizion or Georgia at the time. here is a map of where, according to toponymics, it might have been.View attachment 1190299

and I'd divide Rize between Athina, Hamamshen and Rize locations.

That seems that it's all for now. This was my perspective on south Georgia, feel free to tear my arguments apart. Thanks for dedicating my analysis your precious time!

P.s. here is South Georgian Princely (Tavadi) family name list:
  • Abazadze
  • Abuseridze
  • Akhaltsikheli
  • Amatakidze
  • Amilakhvari
  • Andzaveli
  • Aspanidze
  • Avalishvili
  • Bedzhanishvili
  • Diasamidze
  • Dolenjashvili
  • Dukidze
  • Gogebashvili
  • Gogorishvili
  • Iazonishvili
  • Inasaridze
  • Jakeli
  • Kalmakheli
  • Kavkasidze
  • Khurtsidze
  • Kopadze
  • Lasuridze
  • Muskhelishvili
  • Oladashvili
  • Panaskerteli
  • Rcheulishvili
  • Shalikashvili
  • Slesari
  • Tatkiridze
  • Toreli
  • Tukhareli
  • Turmanidze
  • Tsikhisjvareli
  • Uznadze
  • Zedginidze
Despite being a small part of the dev diary, most of the comments about the post have been about the Caucasus.
saqartvelo-v0-1p6581a4aypd1.jpeg
 
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While I mostly agree with you, according to my research Khupati and Rize should owned by Samsthke. And I too believe Rize should splitted to 2 (Rize and Atina) (if no more), both owned by Samsthke. I'm also not sure about Samsthke owning Kars. Are you saying that beacuse that map shows it owns Kars or you have other sources too? What I could find (not much) says otherwise. Some maps I could find also wasn't including Kars

View attachment 1190364View attachment 1190365
Mkhargerdzeli = Zakarids = current Armenia's ruler dynasty

My suggestions about Anatolia and Samsthke (basically just explaining Khupati and Rize, I forgot about İspir/Speri and later mentioned it in this thread): https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/tinto-maps-7-anatolia-feedback.1702644/post-29872811
Rize should probably be split into 2 or 3 locations so the Hamamshen polity can be represented
 


Added the Bayads, Keraites and Sunuds to the Mongol tribe map:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...er-2024-persia-caucasus.1703150/post-29878892

Looked into Turkic tribes, mainly regarding AQ/QQ. The Aq look to be mostly of the Bayandur tribe in 1337, while the Qq were mostly of the Yiwa. Could make a separate map for them, but someone more knowledgeable of the overall Turkic tribes in the Middle East might be a better fit.


 
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When considering the spread of Nestorianism, I hope you remember that this is before the destruction of Tamerlane.

"In the East Syriac cemetery in Pischpek in Kirgistan, the mostrecently dated tombstones come from the year 1345. The mostrecent Turkish tombstones from Amaliq date from 1368, and themost recent Syriac gravestones from the same location on the modern border between China and Kirgistan are from 1371/2" ---- p. 104.
This means there has been relevant Nestorian presence in the area deep into the game´s timeframe.

” Onthe way, he reorganized the Christians in Almaliq in the khanate ofChagatai. In 1347, on his return trip to Europe from Peking, hefound there was no longer a bishop in Quilon, but he noted that theChristians there controlled the pepper trade (p. 102)

Around 1330 in his Book of the Great Khan, John de Cori wroteof the more than 30,000 “Nestorians” in Peking, who fiercelyopposed the mission of the Franciscans (p. 101)

Around 1302 Yahballaha undertook negotiations with theRoman curia regarding union. On May 18, 1304, he wrote to PopeBenedict XI, enclosing a creed with the letter. The new Il-Khan,Oljaitu (1304–16), although baptized, persecuted the Christians.The Kerait prince Irandjin, a nephew of Doquz-Khatun, preventedthe conversion of the church of Tabriz into a mosque. In Arbela theChurch of the East had a mountain fortress, which also providedmilitary security, but on July 1, 1310, the fortress was captured bythe Mongols, who massacred all its inhabitants (p. 100)
 
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Suggestion about Georgia:

1. At that time the king of Georgia was George V "The Briliant". 1337 was already later years of his rule so he's consolidated all of Georgia under his rule. That's why I think Armenia and Samtskhe should be directly controlled by Georgia. There are many documents of that time from Armenian scholars where they mention they are Armenians from Georgia or Georgia/Georgian king is mentioned in general so I think mentioning Georgia means there was more direct rule from the central government than just a loose vassalage. Also, Syunik was part of / under rule of Georgia.

2. Sukhumi, Lata and Bedia should be part of Samegrelo (Odishi). Duchy of Odishi held territory up to Sokhumi and one of the Dadiani dukes even built a defensive wall, called Kelasuri wall, to stop Adyghean (Later Abkhazians) invasion/migration sometime later in 15-16 century but definitely in 1337 that territory would be part of Odishi (Samegrelo) and population too would be Mingrelian except Lata. Lata should be populated by Svan, even until recently Svans lived there.

Here's a French map from 18th century. It's late for 1337 but North-Caucasian migration eastwards were increasing, not decreasing. I think whoever made that map had older sources but it should be later than 1337 and in that map we see that even Anakopia is inside the borders of Mingrelia (there's also Odichi on the map)

1727028874608.png

3. Abkhazia should include Costa and Tuapse localities, Georgia did nominally control coastline starting from Tuapse (Nicopsia) and the people of that area were called Jiks and the area Jiketi (probably ancestors of modern day non-Georgian Abkhazians). Dividing Abkhazian culture into Abkhazian and Abazin is wrong, they've diverged later, at that time it should have been one culture.

4. There should be a connection between Vartsikhe and Akhaltsikhe. There's Zekari pass and it was used to move armies between Samtskhe and Imereti, even the road is called to this day "military road" because historically armies used that road to move between the areas but it wasn't really a trade route sure. There should also be a connection between Ts'esi and Kariskari, it's historical pass between Racha and North Caucasus. For example, later in early 18th century, Georgian king Vakhtang VI used that pass to flee to Russia from Persians persecution when he took sizable company of nobles and scholars with him so it wasn't a one man pass, definitely an army could go through there albeit with heavy penalties.

5. Change raw materials in Tsageri and Vartsikhe. Tsageri is a mountainous place and it's logical to have some mining there (it includes modern Tqibuli area that is full of coal) but Vartsikhe must be wine making area. Even today, there are 2 main wine regions in Georgia, Kakheti and Imereti. For Imereti, what is on the map Vartsikhe (eastern Vani municipality, Bagdati municipality and southwestern Zestaponi municipality) is the hotspot where you get best Imeretian wine.

6. It would be better to cut some parts from northeast Poti, eastmost Anaklia and southmost Tsalenjikha and create a new location called either Tchqondidi or Martvili. It was an important place since middle ages. For example, chancellor of Georgia and guy who gave Georgia chadiest of chad kings, David IV, held the title archbishop of Tchqondidi and it was important title for some time and would be in 1337 too.
 
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Suggestion about Georgia:

1. At that time the king of Georgia was George V "The Briliant". 1337 was already later years of his rule so he's consolidated all of Georgia under his rule. That's why I think Armenia and Samtskhe should be directly controlled by Georgia. There are many documents of that time from Armenian scholars where they mention they are Armenians from Georgia or Georgia/Georgian king is mentioned in general so I think mentioning Georgia means there was more direct rule from the central government than just a loose vassalage. Also, Syunik was part of / under rule of Georgia.

2. Sukhumi, Lata and Bedia should be part of Samegrelo (Odishi). Duchy of Odishi held territory up to Sokhumi and one of the Dadiani dukes even built a defensive wall, called Kelasuri wall, to stop Adyghean (Later Abkhazians) invasion/migration sometime later in 15-16 century but definitely in 1337 that territory would be part of Odishi (Samegrelo) and population too would be Mingrelian except Lata. Lata should be populated by Svan, even until recently Svans lived there.

Here's a French map from 18th century. It's late for 1337 but North-Caucasian migration eastwards were increasing, not decreasing. I think whoever made that map had older sources but it should be later than 1337 and in that map we see that even Anakopia is inside the borders of Mingrelia (there's also Odichi on the map)

View attachment 1191087
3. Abkhazia should include Costa and Tuapse localities, Georgia did nominally control coastline starting from Tuapse (Nicopsia) and the people of that area were called Jiks and the area Jiketi (probably ancestors of modern day non-Georgian Abkhazians). Dividing Abkhazian culture into Abkhazian and Abazin is wrong, they've diverged later, at that time it should have been one culture.

4. There should be a connection between Vartsikhe and Akhaltsikhe. There's Zekari pass and it was used to move armies between Samtskhe and Imereti, even the road is called to this day "military road" because historically armies used that road to move between the areas but it wasn't really a trade route sure. There should also be a connection between Ts'esi and Kariskari, it's historical pass between Racha and North Caucasus. For example, later in early 18th century, Georgian king Vakhtang VI used that pass to flee to Russia from Persians persecution when he took sizable company of nobles and scholars with him so it wasn't a one man pass, definitely an army could go through there albeit with heavy penalties.

5. Change raw materials in Tsageri and Vartsikhe. Tsageri is a mountainous place and it's logical to have some mining there (it includes modern Tqibuli area that is full of coal) but Vartsikhe must be wine making area. Even today, there are 2 main wine regions in Georgia, Kakheti and Imereti. For Imereti, what is on the map Vartsikhe (eastern Vani municipality, Bagdati municipality and southwestern Zestaponi municipality) is the hotspot where you get best Imeretian wine.

6. It would be better to cut some parts from northeast Poti, eastmost Anaklia and southmost Tsalenjikha and create a new location called either Tchqondidi or Martvili. It was an important place since middle ages. For example, chancellor of Georgia and guy who gave Georgia chadiest of chad kings, David IV, held the title archbishop of Tchqondidi and it was important title for some time and would be in 1337 too.

Can you provide some examples that would point to Armenia and Syunik being under Georgia in 1337, nevermind centrally governed by them? Same for Samtskhe.

So far most of what has been posted on this thread points toward the Armenians still being functionally under the Mongols
 
Can you provide some examples that would point to Armenia and Syunik being under Georgia in 1337, nevermind centrally governed by them? Same for Samtskhe.

So far most of what has been posted on this thread points toward the Armenians still being functionally under the Mongols
Mother of George V was Jaqeli, daughter of Beka I Jaqeli, ruler of Samtskhe. Few years of his childhood he spent in Samtskhe in his grandfather's court. He wasn't the oldest son. At that time it was a huge mess on Georgian throne and Mongols were giving the title of king to different people after various rebellions. One of those cases were for George. He was declared king in young age and certainly his grandfather had some influence over him but because most of the Georgia was controlled by other kings he was called "Tbilisi king". During the first half of 14th century Samtskhe did have some autonomy. George's uncle, Sargis II Jaqeli was also important figure and he fought alongside Georgian army in battles against Turks and Mongols. When Sargis died in 1334, George personally went to Samtskhe and confirmed his son, Qvarqvare as a ruler. This act I think should mean Georgia had as much conrol over Samtskhe as in Imereti or Odishi. I can't give you any document from 1330's or 1340's where it says exactly that Samtskhe is integral part of Georgia. It was still a form of feudal rule at that time so these relationships were fluid, under weak king dukes had more autonomy, under strong kings - less.


As for Armenians, it's important to note that Armenians lived in much bigger area than today and when we talk about Georgian control we only talk about northern tips of Armenian populated territories. There was also Cilician Armenia, which was completely different political entity from Caucasian Armenians. Here are some examples of Armenian documents and footnotes from which we can deduce political situation at that time (I'll be translating the texts so it's not exactly word by word but we can still understand the idea):
1)
Place: Gladzor Monastery
Year: 1321
Scribe: Kyrion
Text: New Testament
Footnote: This book was written in [1321], by our Armenian calendar, in brutal and evil time, when the whole country of Georgians and Armenians was strongly held by relative of archers (Mongols, archers or archer tribe, couldn't translate exactly). When for Georgians Giorgi (George), in great Armenia (probably meaning Cilician Armenia) son of our rightful king, Leon was king and our lord Konstant ruled.

2)
Place: Gladzor Monastery
Year: 1323
Contributor: Esaia Nchentsi
Text: New Testament
Footnote: I've made the book written in [1323] by Japhetian calendar. When khan Abusaid (Abu S'aid) held the country. When on Armenians Levon, seated on Cilician throne ruled, in Georgia and great Armenia Giorgi (George) ruled and in Syunik great duke Burteli ruled. It [this book] was written in Gavar of Syunik, during the rule of aforementioned great lord Burteli.

My comment: there's a mix up between these 2 sources. In source 1 Leon is mentioned as a monarch in great Armenia and George is mentioned separately. In source 2 George is mentioned together as king of Georgia and great Armenia and Cilician throne is mentioned separately with certain Levon being king. I think Leon and Levon are the same person, Leo III Hethumid of Cilicia and terminology of great Armenia is just used by Armenians to glorify a piece of territory they live so it should not be a name of a certain country/territory. Konstant, probably Konstantine should be an Armenian patriarch of the Armenian Apostolic Church. For Syunik, Burteli Orbeliani is mentioned separately as duke. There could be 2 options. Option one is that Burteli Orbeliani was independent so that's why he was mentioned or option two, the source says the book was written in Syunik so I guess they just included local duke but he was still at least vassal of Georgia. So source 2 book was gifted from someone to the monks of Gladzor Monastery but was written in Syunik. Since 1323 is later year and at that time coast should be clearer who rules where and what, I think we should take George to be the king of Georgia and certain Armenia and Burteli a duke of Syunik either independent or vassal of George. It's also important to note that Orbeliani family was a prominent noble family in Georgia unlike Hassan-Jallalyan and must have had at least some connection with Georgia.

3)
Place: Jghona desert? (I have no idea where it is or where it was, probable Judean desert?)
Year: 1330
Scribe: Kirakos Eznkaietsi
Text: New Testament
Footnote: This book was written in [1330] by Armenian calendar. When lord Hakob was "fatherlord" (Idk English equivalent of this title, could be clergy, could be monarch but here I think it's clergy) on Armenians ruled Levon (again, it should be Leo Hethumid) and on Georgians Giorgi (George) and khan was Abusaid (Abu S'aid).

My comment: this source document seems to be outside Caucasus. There were a lot of monasteries in the holy land where Georgian and Armenian monks lived and controlled the monasteries. King George even had an agreement with Mamluks that Georgians were allowed in Jerusalem on horse while westerners could enter only on foot or like women sitting sideways. Here we see that the scribe mentions Armenians only once in context of Cilicia and mentions only George on the other hand so for outside world (and for EU 5 / Project Caesar) there was just one ruler in Caucasus for Armenians and Georgians. Also it's important to note that the year is getting closer to 1337 and mentioning only George might also mean that he did consolidate power over time and resumed strong control over southern lands.

4)
Place: Khumiti monastery? (couldn't find the current locality of this)
Year: 1331
Scribe: Mkrtich
Text: Euchologion
Footnote: [this book was written in] [1331] by Armenian calendar, when the khan was Abusaid (Abu S'aid), king over Armenians Levon and on Georgians Gorge (George).

My comment: again here we see that only Leo and George are mentioned alongside Abu S'aid.

5)
Place: Surkhat, Crimea
Year: 1336
Scribe: Terter Erevantsi
Text: Preachings of Vardan Aigektsi
Footnote:
... this book was written in [1336] by Armenian calendar, in the capital city of Surkhat, Crimea, in Virgin Mary [church/monastery] built by Shahanshah Paron by unworthy of the name of monk Terter (this was a humble dude I guess :D)...

(humble or not, then he gives us a poetry)

...
Me, Tiratsu, unworthy man,
poor monk,
came from Georgia,
from the neighbor of Khor Virap,
wonderful city of Yerevan.
I crossed this borderless sea,
came to Caffa, city of Franks,
was writing this book to Vardan...

My comment: This is another text from outside of the region and it clearly mentions Yerevan as Georgia, in 1336. Don't be confused with Franks in Caffa, for some reason Georgians and Armenians at that time and during middle ages were calling all Latin Christians Franks.

6)
Place: Sisian, Syunik
Year: 1337
Scribe: unknown
Text: New Testament
Footnote: the book was written in Sisakan, when great commander of Georgians and Armenians, of royal descent, duke Burteli ruled...

My comment: this book was written in Syunik itself and only mentions Burteli, same guy mentioned above and he's called commander first. Although no king is mentioned, I think it means that Syunik was at least a vassal of Georgia, otherwise why would anyone mention an independent Armenian ruler as commander of Georgians and Armenians? Considering that it was a common practice in Georgia to give southern lords bigger commanding positions in the army it's logical to think that Burteli Orbeliani was also one of the generals of Georgian army. By royal descent the scribe must mean connection to Bagrationi family. I'm not sure if Orbeliani and Bagrationi intermarried much after 12th century but there was this one well known case of Orbeli (Orbeliani) upprising in 1170's. Son of the former king David V, Demna, married Orbeli (Orbeliani) princess and was a rightful heir to throne but king Giorgi III (father of Tamar) didn't give up the throne and crushed the rebellion. Orbelis did held territories in Armenian lands and possibly at some point ended up ruling Syunik. Change of the last name should just mean the Armenization of the family who later still went back to Georgia and Georgianized.

My final comment: considering Yerevan mentioned as Georgia in 1336 and Burteli Orbeliani being mentioned as a commander of Georgians and Armenians when there lived no Georgians in Syunik, either both entities on the map (Armenia and Syunik) should be annex by Georgia or Armenia annexed and Syunik vassalized. Keep in mind that only local productions mention local lords while more "international" (meaning from Judea or Crimea) texts mention only Georgia in regards to the lands of modern Georgia and Armenia. Well, I'll still do the changes myself with my personal mod but I just think other players should also play historically accurate game, as accurate as possible. If you want fun mechanic to introduce, let there be some additional challenges for Georgia to keep Armenian territories as core. Maybe an event that gives tones of rebels demanding to free Armenia as a vassal. Anyways, I gave some source material from that time and anyone can deduce their truth from it :)
 
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Can you provide some examples that would point to Armenia and Syunik being under Georgia in 1337, nevermind centrally governed by them? Same for Samtskhe.

So far most of what has been posted on this thread points toward the Armenians still being functionally under the Mongols
I have seen some info and maps about Armenian lands being under Georgia during this time.

1727037493413.png
1727037671087.png

Found this on wiki for Kars.
If we read the last few lines, after Mongols Kars should under Georgian influence and it was reoccupied by the Ilkhanate only during the reign of David IX of Georgia who became a king in 1346.

1727038145869.png

This was written under the wiki for Giorgi V the king of Georgia during 1337.

1727039487802.png

This was written under the wiki for the Zakarid dynasty. How would they have their office in Georgia and the title of atabeg (meaning the raiser of the crown prince) taken away by George V if they weren't under Georgia?
Here are some maps I found:
1727038274398.png
Map–Principality_of_Samtskhe_till_c.1325–ka.svg.png

Found the left map on the wiki. The white color is probably showing the vassalage and the shaded part is probably influence.
The right map shows Samtskhe in the first quarter of XIV century and it shows Kars Being under Samtskhe, Ani being under "ლიხთ-ამერეთის სამეფო" which basically means east Georgia (west and east got united later), with Surmali still being under the Ilkhanate.

Sorry for only using the wiki as my source. The wiki says there are sources for those things i just showed but idk how to open them so if someone else does yay.
I still can't post with links, so no links.
 
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Suggestion about Georgia:

1. At that time the king of Georgia was George V "The Briliant". 1337 was already later years of his rule so he's consolidated all of Georgia under his rule. That's why I think Armenia and Samtskhe should be directly controlled by Georgia. There are many documents of that time from Armenian scholars where they mention they are Armenians from Georgia or Georgia/Georgian king is mentioned in general so I think mentioning Georgia means there was more direct rule from the central government than just a loose vassalage. Also, Syunik was part of / under rule of Georgia.

2. Sukhumi, Lata and Bedia should be part of Samegrelo (Odishi). Duchy of Odishi held territory up to Sokhumi and one of the Dadiani dukes even built a defensive wall, called Kelasuri wall, to stop Adyghean (Later Abkhazians) invasion/migration sometime later in 15-16 century but definitely in 1337 that territory would be part of Odishi (Samegrelo) and population too would be Mingrelian except Lata. Lata should be populated by Svan, even until recently Svans lived there.

Here's a French map from 18th century. It's late for 1337 but North-Caucasian migration eastwards were increasing, not decreasing. I think whoever made that map had older sources but it should be later than 1337 and in that map we see that even Anakopia is inside the borders of Mingrelia (there's also Odichi on the map)

View attachment 1191087
3. Abkhazia should include Costa and Tuapse localities, Georgia did nominally control coastline starting from Tuapse (Nicopsia) and the people of that area were called Jiks and the area Jiketi (probably ancestors of modern day non-Georgian Abkhazians). Dividing Abkhazian culture into Abkhazian and Abazin is wrong, they've diverged later, at that time it should have been one culture.

4. There should be a connection between Vartsikhe and Akhaltsikhe. There's Zekari pass and it was used to move armies between Samtskhe and Imereti, even the road is called to this day "military road" because historically armies used that road to move between the areas but it wasn't really a trade route sure. There should also be a connection between Ts'esi and Kariskari, it's historical pass between Racha and North Caucasus. For example, later in early 18th century, Georgian king Vakhtang VI used that pass to flee to Russia from Persians persecution when he took sizable company of nobles and scholars with him so it wasn't a one man pass, definitely an army could go through there albeit with heavy penalties.

5. Change raw materials in Tsageri and Vartsikhe. Tsageri is a mountainous place and it's logical to have some mining there (it includes modern Tqibuli area that is full of coal) but Vartsikhe must be wine making area. Even today, there are 2 main wine regions in Georgia, Kakheti and Imereti. For Imereti, what is on the map Vartsikhe (eastern Vani municipality, Bagdati municipality and southwestern Zestaponi municipality) is the hotspot where you get best Imeretian wine.

6. It would be better to cut some parts from northeast Poti, eastmost Anaklia and southmost Tsalenjikha and create a new location called either Tchqondidi or Martvili. It was an important place since middle ages. For example, chancellor of Georgia and guy who gave Georgia chadiest of chad kings, David IV, held the title archbishop of Tchqondidi and it was important title for some time and would be in 1337 too.
1. Athabgate was part of Georgia, yes but it had big amounts of autonomy. Think of it as Burgundy and France.

2. U are 100% right

3. No it should not Jiks are not Abkhazs, they were Ubykhs. Completly different group. Jiks didn't recognize any Georgian feudal as their overlord

4. I don't completely know about that pass. main pass is between Achara and Guria. Mesketi range is very difficult to pass and for the game purposes it would be much fun if u couldn't pass through Imereti to Samthskhe.

5. I'm from Tsageri myself. There is no mining going on there. Fishing and hunting was very common for Leckumians, but so was Wine producing. One of the best kinds of Georgian Wine "Usakhelouri" is produced in Lechckumi.

6 U are probably right I'll do my West Georgia review after I've done critiquing East Georgia, currently I'm working on it. U can view my South Georgia Critique on this page though, if u wish.
 
I have seen some info and maps about Armenian lands being under Georgia during this time.

View attachment 1191143 View attachment 1191147
Found this on wiki for Kars.
If we read the last few lines, after Mongols Kars should under Georgian influence and it was reoccupied by the Ilkhanate only during the reign of David IX of Georgia who became a king in 1346.

View attachment 1191156
This was written under the wiki for Giorgi V the king of Georgia during 1337.

View attachment 1191170
This was written under the wiki for the Zakarid dynasty. Why would they have their title of atabeg (meaning the raiser of the crown prince) taken away by George V if they weren't under Georgia.
Here are some maps I found:
View attachment 1191158View attachment 1191165
Found the left map on the wiki. The white color is probably showing the vassalage and the shaded part is probably influence.
The right map shows Samtskhe in the first quarter of XIV century and it shows Kars Being under Samtskhe, Ani being under "ლიხთ-ამერეთის სამეფო" which basically means east Georgia (west and east got united later), with Surmali still being under the Ilkhanate.

Sorry for only using the wiki as my source. The wiki says there are sources for those things i just showed but idk how to open them so if someone else does yay.
I still can't post with links, so no links.
Wiki is a terrible source most of the times. I suggest for u to search for better sources on Forum.ge. some guys there have amicable sources.
 
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Mother of George V was Jaqeli, daughter of Beka I Jaqeli, ruler of Samtskhe. Few years of his childhood he spent in Samtskhe in his grandfather's court. He wasn't the oldest son. At that time it was a huge mess on Georgian throne and Mongols were giving the title of king to different people after various rebellions. One of those cases were for George. He was declared king in young age and certainly his grandfather had some influence over him but because most of the Georgia was controlled by other kings he was called "Tbilisi king". During the first half of 14th century Samtskhe did have some autonomy. George's uncle, Sargis II Jaqeli was also important figure and he fought alongside Georgian army in battles against Turks and Mongols. When Sargis died in 1334, George personally went to Samtskhe and confirmed his son, Qvarqvare as a ruler. This act I think should mean Georgia had as much conrol over Samtskhe as in Imereti or Odishi. I can't give you any document from 1330's or 1340's where it says exactly that Samtskhe is integral part of Georgia. It was still a form of feudal rule at that time so these relationships were fluid, under weak king dukes had more autonomy, under strong kings - less.


As for Armenians, it's important to note that Armenians lived in much bigger area than today and when we talk about Georgian control we only talk about northern tips of Armenian populated territories. There was also Cilician Armenia, which was completely different political entity from Caucasian Armenians. Here are some examples of Armenian documents and footnotes from which we can deduce political situation at that time (I'll be translating the texts so it's not exactly word by word but we can still understand the idea):
1)
Place: Gladzor Monastery
Year: 1321
Scribe: Kyrion
Text: New Testament
Footnote: This book was written in [1321], by our Armenian calendar, in brutal and evil time, when the whole country of Georgians and Armenians was strongly held by relative of archers (Mongols, archers or archer tribe, couldn't translate exactly). When for Georgians Giorgi (George), in great Armenia (probably meaning Cilician Armenia) son of our rightful king, Leon was king and our lord Konstant ruled.

2)
Place: Gladzor Monastery
Year: 1323
Contributor: Esaia Nchentsi
Text: New Testament
Footnote: I've made the book written in [1323] by Japhetian calendar. When khan Abusaid (Abu S'aid) held the country. When on Armenians Levon, seated on Cilician throne ruled, in Georgia and great Armenia Giorgi (George) ruled and in Syunik great duke Burteli ruled. It [this book] was written in Gavar of Syunik, during the rule of aforementioned great lord Burteli.

My comment: there's a mix up between these 2 sources. In source 1 Leon is mentioned as a monarch in great Armenia and George is mentioned separately. In source 2 George is mentioned together as king of Georgia and great Armenia and Cilician throne is mentioned separately with certain Levon being king. I think Leon and Levon are the same person, Leo III Hethumid of Cilicia and terminology of great Armenia is just used by Armenians to glorify a piece of territory they live so it should not be a name of a certain country/territory. Konstant, probably Konstantine should be an Armenian patriarch of the Armenian Apostolic Church. For Syunik, Burteli Orbeliani is mentioned separately as duke. There could be 2 options. Option one is that Burteli Orbeliani was independent so that's why he was mentioned or option two, the source says the book was written in Syunik so I guess they just included local duke but he was still at least vassal of Georgia. So source 2 book was gifted from someone to the monks of Gladzor Monastery but was written in Syunik. Since 1323 is later year and at that time coast should be clearer who rules where and what, I think we should take George to be the king of Georgia and certain Armenia and Burteli a duke of Syunik either independent or vassal of George. It's also important to note that Orbeliani family was a prominent noble family in Georgia unlike Hassan-Jallalyan and must have had at least some connection with Georgia.

3)
Place: Jghona desert? (I have no idea where it is or where it was, probable Judean desert?)
Year: 1330
Scribe: Kirakos Eznkaietsi
Text: New Testament
Footnote: This book was written in [1330] by Armenian calendar. When lord Hakob was "fatherlord" (Idk English equivalent of this title, could be clergy, could be monarch but here I think it's clergy) on Armenians ruled Levon (again, it should be Leo Hethumid) and on Georgians Giorgi (George) and khan was Abusaid (Abu S'aid).

My comment: this source document seems to be outside Caucasus. There were a lot of monasteries in the holy land where Georgian and Armenian monks lived and controlled the monasteries. King George even had an agreement with Mamluks that Georgians were allowed in Jerusalem on horse while westerners could enter only on foot or like women sitting sideways. Here we see that the scribe mentions Armenians only once in context of Cilicia and mentions only George on the other hand so for outside world (and for EU 5 / Project Caesar) there was just one ruler in Caucasus for Armenians and Georgians. Also it's important to note that the year is getting closer to 1337 and mentioning only George might also mean that he did consolidate power over time and resumed strong control over southern lands.

4)
Place: Khumiti monastery? (couldn't find the current locality of this)
Year: 1331
Scribe: Mkrtich
Text: Euchologion
Footnote: [this book was written in] [1331] by Armenian calendar, when the khan was Abusaid (Abu S'aid), king over Armenians Levon and on Georgians Gorge (George).

My comment: again here we see that only Leo and George are mentioned alongside Abu S'aid.

5)
Place: Surkhat, Crimea
Year: 1336
Scribe: Terter Erevantsi
Text: Preachings of Vardan Aigektsi
Footnote:
... this book was written in [1336] by Armenian calendar, in the capital city of Surkhat, Crimea, in Virgin Mary [church/monastery] built by Shahanshah Paron by unworthy of the name of monk Terter (this was a humble dude I guess :D)...

(humble or not, then he gives us a poetry)

...
Me, Tiratsu, unworthy man,
poor monk,
came from Georgia,
from the neighbor of Khor Virap,
wonderful city of Yerevan.
I crossed this borderless sea,
came to Caffa, city of Franks,
was writing this book to Vardan...

My comment: This is another text from outside of the region and it clearly mentions Yerevan as Georgia, in 1336. Don't be confused with Franks in Caffa, for some reason Georgians and Armenians at that time and during middle ages were calling all Latin Christians Franks.

6)
Place: Sisian, Syunik
Year: 1337
Scribe: unknown
Text: New Testament
Footnote: the book was written in Sisakan, when great commander of Georgians and Armenians, of royal descent, duke Burteli ruled...

My comment: this book was written in Syunik itself and only mentions Burteli, same guy mentioned above and he's called commander first. Although no king is mentioned, I think it means that Syunik was at least a vassal of Georgia, otherwise why would anyone mention an independent Armenian ruler as commander of Georgians and Armenians? Considering that it was a common practice in Georgia to give southern lords bigger commanding positions in the army it's logical to think that Burteli Orbeliani was also one of the generals of Georgian army. By royal descent the scribe must mean connection to Bagrationi family. I'm not sure if Orbeliani and Bagrationi intermarried much after 12th century but there was this one well known case of Orbeli (Orbeliani) upprising in 1170's. Son of the former king David V, Demna, married Orbeli (Orbeliani) princess and was a rightful heir to throne but king Giorgi III (father of Tamar) didn't give up the throne and crushed the rebellion. Orbelis did held territories in Armenian lands and possibly at some point ended up ruling Syunik. Change of the last name should just mean the Armenization of the family who later still went back to Georgia and Georgianized.

My final comment: considering Yerevan mentioned as Georgia in 1336 and Burteli Orbeliani being mentioned as a commander of Georgians and Armenians when there lived no Georgians in Syunik, either both entities on the map (Armenia and Syunik) should be annex by Georgia or Armenia annexed and Syunik vassalized. Keep in mind that only local productions mention local lords while more "international" (meaning from Judea or Crimea) texts mention only Georgia in regards to the lands of modern Georgia and Armenia. Well, I'll still do the changes myself with my personal mod but I just think other players should also play historically accurate game, as accurate as possible. If you want fun mechanic to introduce, let there be some additional challenges for Georgia to keep Armenian territories as core. Maybe an event that gives tones of rebels demanding to free Armenia as a vassal. Anyways, I gave some source material from that time and anyone can deduce their truth from it :)
very interesting incite
 
Ok, so before I make east Georgia critique, I made province-locations physical satellite view map for south Georgia. there are three of them Already existing Samthske and Childir (Pleese name it Tao-Klarjeti) and I added brand New Lazona. So here are they
Opera Snapshot_2024-09-23_071342_earth.google.com.png

First map: the province of Samtske. So currently there are 4 locations here: Ardahan (please rename it to Artaani), Akhaltsikhe, Akhalkalaki and Tmogvi. I added two more. Kola in the south and Tori in the north. I explained the reasons for adding this locations in previous post.
P.s. I mistakenly wrote Kola instead of Tori on the map, sorry for that.
Opera Snapshot_2024-09-23_065116_earth.google.com.png

Map 2: Childir (Should be named either Tao-Klarjeti, or just Klarjeti). I added location of Shavsheti here and altered the shapes of Panakserti, Tortomi and Oltisi for the reasons I explained in the previous post.
Opera Snapshot_2024-09-23_073142_earth.google.com.png

Map 3: So I added brand new province with 4 locations for this one. I called it a beautiful name of "Lazona", which means Lazistan in Laz. For this province I've left Khupati alone and chopped Rize down to 3 parts: Rize, Hamamshen and Athina. Athina Should be completely Laz with small Georgian, Armenian and Pontic Greek Populus. Hamamshen should be Plurality Armenian with almost equal number of Laz and small Pontic Greek Populus in it. Rize Should be majority Laz with strong Pontic Greek presence and small Armenian one as well.
 
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Suggestion about Georgia:

1. At that time the king of Georgia was George V "The Briliant". 1337 was already later years of his rule so he's consolidated all of Georgia under his rule. That's why I think Armenia and Samtskhe should be directly controlled by Georgia. There are many documents of that time from Armenian scholars where they mention they are Armenians from Georgia or Georgia/Georgian king is mentioned in general so I think mentioning Georgia means there was more direct rule from the central government than just a loose vassalage. Also, Syunik was part of / under rule of Georgia.

2. Sukhumi, Lata and Bedia should be part of Samegrelo (Odishi). Duchy of Odishi held territory up to Sokhumi and one of the Dadiani dukes even built a defensive wall, called Kelasuri wall, to stop Adyghean (Later Abkhazians) invasion/migration sometime later in 15-16 century but definitely in 1337 that territory would be part of Odishi (Samegrelo) and population too would be Mingrelian except Lata. Lata should be populated by Svan, even until recently Svans lived there.

Here's a French map from 18th century. It's late for 1337 but North-Caucasian migration eastwards were increasing, not decreasing. I think whoever made that map had older sources but it should be later than 1337 and in that map we see that even Anakopia is inside the borders of Mingrelia (there's also Odichi on the map)

View attachment 1191087
3. Abkhazia should include Costa and Tuapse localities, Georgia did nominally control coastline starting from Tuapse (Nicopsia) and the people of that area were called Jiks and the area Jiketi (probably ancestors of modern day non-Georgian Abkhazians). Dividing Abkhazian culture into Abkhazian and Abazin is wrong, they've diverged later, at that time it should have been one culture.

4. There should be a connection between Vartsikhe and Akhaltsikhe. There's Zekari pass and it was used to move armies between Samtskhe and Imereti, even the road is called to this day "military road" because historically armies used that road to move between the areas but it wasn't really a trade route sure. There should also be a connection between Ts'esi and Kariskari, it's historical pass between Racha and North Caucasus. For example, later in early 18th century, Georgian king Vakhtang VI used that pass to flee to Russia from Persians persecution when he took sizable company of nobles and scholars with him so it wasn't a one man pass, definitely an army could go through there albeit with heavy penalties.

5. Change raw materials in Tsageri and Vartsikhe. Tsageri is a mountainous place and it's logical to have some mining there (it includes modern Tqibuli area that is full of coal) but Vartsikhe must be wine making area. Even today, there are 2 main wine regions in Georgia, Kakheti and Imereti. For Imereti, what is on the map Vartsikhe (eastern Vani municipality, Bagdati municipality and southwestern Zestaponi municipality) is the hotspot where you get best Imeretian wine.

6. It would be better to cut some parts from northeast Poti, eastmost Anaklia and southmost Tsalenjikha and create a new location called either Tchqondidi or Martvili. It was an important place since middle ages. For example, chancellor of Georgia and guy who gave Georgia chadiest of chad kings, David IV, held the title archbishop of Tchqondidi and it was important title for some time and would be in 1337 too.
You're kinda off on most of these points, ngl
 
I decided to check some sources and here's summary of what i found about Georgia's ownership of Armenia during this time:
1727198400655.png

Although the rulers of Javakheti, Kvemo Kartli and Lori were called "provincial kings", this was probably because they were of a royal origin, but ofc it could be debated that part of a reason was that they were quite autonomous from Georgia. We have to also take in context the fact that there isn't a ruler specified during 1320-1340 years between Melkisedek and Andronicus and it could be debated that the reason for that was that it was directly controlled by Georgia during that period, although that is just my opinion. Nevertheless it should at least be under vassalage by them.
1727199336064.jpeg

It was probably smaller that this, I just wanted to show which regions Javakheti, Lower Kartli and Lori are.

1727196805320.png

Also according to this David IX (1346-1360) lost Laz, Kars, Nakhichevan (Nakchivan) and Garnisi (Garni, close to Yerevan) territories. This means that Georgia should have had much of the Armenian territories before him, during the reign of George V (the king in 1337). Although I don't know how much direct control they had over them, they should at least be their vassal. It's more likely that Lori was under direct Georgian control then the rest of Armenia.

Screenshot 2024-09-24 204528 (1).png
Location Caucasus (1).png

According to this Ossetia (Alania) should be a Georgian vassal too during this period, I don't have any more information about that though:
1727200608396.png

Countries (1).png


We can also take a look at the Persian inscription on the wall of Menucihr mosque in Ani (dated between May-June 1319 to 30 November 1335):
1727200045727.png

1727200087735.png

1727200112588.png

In German:
1727200212202.png

1727200245427.png

In English (according to google translate):
1727200350193.png

I don't fully understand what they are talking about, but as I poorly understood it's about some taxes being abolished, which devastated the city of Ani and other provinces of Georgia.
Although it is a persian scripture we should remember that Georgia was still under Ilkhanate before 1327 and it is possible that the scripture was written during those times. Also since Ani is mentioned with the other provinces of Georgia I feel like it is a proof that the Georgian influence in the region is far stronger than we thought.
If anyone knows Arabic/German and supports or denies my claim I would be happy.

The confusion that Armenia wasn't a part of Georgia during this period probably came from the fact that Chobanids and Jalairid Mongols were fighting on those very lands (and could have had some Armenians among their ranks):
Screenshot 2024-09-23 021139.png


In my mind it makes sense that most of Armenia should be under Georgia directly/vassal. I hope most of what I said made sense.

Sources:
Rayfield, Donald, 1942 – Edge of empires : a history of Georgia.
Historical dictionary of Georgia / Alexander Mikaberidze (2007).
Die persische Inschrift an der Mauer der Manūčehr- Moschee zu Ani, Von Wilhelm Barthold
 
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You're kinda off on most of these points, ngl
I try to match the current development, of course more accurate and precise changes would be better but I still don't get it what you mean by kinda off, give me the exact thing and your counterargument dude or just don't comment such bullshit.

P.S. Yes, I'm Georgian.
 
1. Athabgate was part of Georgia, yes but it had big amounts of autonomy. Think of it as Burgundy and France.

2. U are 100% right

3. No it should not Jiks are not Abkhazs, they were Ubykhs. Completly different group. Jiks didn't recognize any Georgian feudal as their overlord

4. I don't completely know about that pass. main pass is between Achara and Guria. Mesketi range is very difficult to pass and for the game purposes it would be much fun if u couldn't pass through Imereti to Samthskhe.

5. I'm from Tsageri myself. There is no mining going on there. Fishing and hunting was very common for Leckumians, but so was Wine producing. One of the best kinds of Georgian Wine "Usakhelouri" is produced in Lechckumi.

6 U are probably right I'll do my West Georgia review after I've done critiquing East Georgia, currently I'm working on it. U can view my South Georgia Critique on this page though, if u wish.
1. Athabagate would be like Burgundy in 1400's or late 1200's but in 1337, when the game starts, the king was George the Brilliant and he did consolidate power to a degree that it's more likely Samtskhe was fully integrated, as integrated as Imereti, that has been a separate kingdom when the George became a king.

3. I'm not sure who Jiks were but it's common knowledge to include Jiketi coastline as integral part of Georgia (From Nicopsia to Darubandi). Even on maps, when most of the north caucasian tribes are shown as vassals or tributaries Jiketi is always shown as part of Georgia. I remember this one source material that at some point one of the strong Dadiani rulers try to reestablish Georgian control on Jiketi with help of Gurieli (Odishi and Guria dukes) but failed. Unfortunately I don't remember the source but I do remember that it was about reestablish control, not establish (meaning there was a control at some point prior to the event). I suppose it should be the time when Adygheans started to migrate westwards. In general, Ubykhs, as you mentioned, did held territories between Sochi and Tuapse but it was later centuries. Culturally Ubykhs were somewhere between Abkhazians and Circassians. I suppose this divergence happened somewhere later down the line and in 1337 Abkhaz-Adyghe culture would be more closer than it is now or it was in 19th century.

4. It's no longer a common road but it was a common pass at that time. When Imeretian king Bagrat III controlled Samtskhe before Ottoman intervention he did control through Zekari pass. For comparison there's Goderdzi pass and it's not easier to cross in terms of topography. I have a village on that road, Obcha, that goes all the way to Shorapani (Zestaponi).

5. There's no current mining in Tsageri I guess but probably there are some potential mining areas. Anyways, the locations in the game don't match exactly to the current provinces and I misjudged that what is Tsageri on the map might include Tkibuli that is one of the leading coal-mining area in Georgia today. As for wine, Usakhelouri is a nieche type of wine, you would find some nieche quality wine in all parts of Georgia but in general Imeretian wine (Tsitska-Tsolikauri) is more widespread and well-known, like Kakhetian wine.

P.S. I just tried to make as little changes on the current development as possible to give as accurate depiction of Georgia as possible. You did great job at detailing possible changes but I think, unfortunately, that's not going to happen in the base game while small changes are more probable. I'm down for collaboration to make a mod to detail Georgian area after the game releases, I always make personal changes. I made Bagrationi and Bagratuni dynasties as houses of one dynasty in CK3 years before they finally made it in the base game :D
 
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We interrupt your regularly scheduled Georgian programming to bring you some news from Central Asia

I started doing research on the empty coast of the eastern Caspian and then things quickly snowballed. So here are some proposals covering Central Asia. Two of them are similar to or inspired by @arkh4ngelsk's post, although the end result is fairly different. I'm trying out using thumbnails for most of the pictures here, since there's so many of them and the big ones break up the text so much. Click to embiggen.

The Eastern Caspian Coast

There are three/four drawings here of the same suggestion, based on your choice for the Caspian shoreline. The current shoreline is on the left and the most extreme change is on the right. I prefer one of the middle two. See below for details.

1727427128057.png
1727427146127.png
1727427151937.png
1727427158516.png

Two new locations (and a new wasteland location): Uly Balkan and Ogurja. Both share the following suggested attributes:

AreaClimateVegetationTopographyCultureReligion
KhwarazmCold AridDesertFlatlandTurkmenSunni

For Raw Materials I recommend giving Ogurja wool and Uly Balkan fish. These are the resources associated with the region in the sources, since they were taxed in sheep and were mentioned as fishermen. Both as sheep could also work. If there is any mechanism for oil in the late game then Ogurja should be able to participate in it, as noted in the quotes below.

Population should be pretty low.

For province and area I'm not 100% sure, but I lean more towards Khwarazm as the area and Uzboy as the province, since there is probably more in common historically and culturally with the inhabitants of the existing locations on the Uzboy River and the Khwarazm area generally than with the more Persian regions to the south.

If you must only add one of these then choose Ogurja – in my opinion it’s more clearly indicated in the sources, as it has both the island(s) and the Uzboy riverbed which regularly appear in the references, and it’s more geographically suitable for habitation. Also it was a pirate base in the 1700s and that’s fun. How often do you hear about Turkmen pirates?

I am not totally happy with the “Uly Balkan” name, which is derived from the Uly Balkan (Great Balkan) mountain range – however the highest mountain in that range is actually the wasteland to the south of this location and I’m not sure how far into this location the rest of the range passes, but also don’t have any better ideas. The Russian name mentioned below is from the very tail end of the period and the Persian name is mentioned in a single source and it isn’t totally clear its the same place. I like them as dynamic names for potential conquests but not so much as the name at the start of the game. Suggestions would be great.

The wasteland is Mt Arlan and should have Mountain topography and otherwise the same attributes. I know it’s meaningless in gameplay terms but there seem to be other wastelands that are also there mostly for show so it seemed ok to add.

Dynamic names:
TurkicPersianRussian
Uly BalkanDehestān-e Sor, if you're willing to perhaps reach a littleKrasnovodsk
OgurjaChaharken or ChelekenOgurcha


It’s clear that there was habitation in this area, but the exact nature, names, locations, and borders are vague and likely shifting. So this proposal is built on a lot of partial and unclear references and some assumptions and reaches on my part.

As for the borders, Ogurja follows the bed of the Uzboy river down to the sea, passing between Mt Arlan and the matching peak on the south side of the river valley, and fanning out as it approaches the sea. The island(s) are included with this location. Uly Balkan was harder to find natural borders for, and is basically covers what is now called the Turkmenbashy peninsula, cutting off at Mt Arlan in the south and the Ust-Yurt Plateau in the northeast.

Sources for inhabitation, resources, and naming

Thereupon Saphian Chan [Sufyan Khan, of Khiva] having sent word to the Turkmanns of the Abulchan [Balkan] of the Tribe of Irsari [Ersari]

You must know that the River Amu, after it has pass’d by Urgens [Urgench], takes its Course towards the West and the Mountain of Abulchan [Balkan, specifically probably Mt Arlan]; and from thence wheeling about that Mountain it runs Southward; then returning to the West, it passes thro’ the Country of Ogurza, and falls into the Sea of Masanderan [Caspian]. There were at that time [1500s] Habitations in abundance upon both sides of that River, from the Town of Urgens, as far as the Country of Ogurza; by reason of the Soil being exceedingly fertil, all sorts of Fruits and Roots grew there in Perfection. … The Turkmanns of the Tribe of Adaklichisseri-illi [Adakly-Khyzyr] dwelt on both sides of that River, from the Country of Pishga [Pishgah, some wells near Urgench] as far as that of Karikizit [Qara-kechit, unknown location]; from the Country of Karikizit as far as the Mountain of Abulchan, the Turkmanns of the Tribe of Aly-ili [Ali-eli] inhabit, and the Turkmanns of the Tribe of Ti-u-azi [Teveji] possess the rest of the two sides of the River Amu, from the Mountain of Abulchan, as far as the Sea of Masanderan.​
Abulghazi, 235-6, annotations from Barthold 1902 and Barthold 1962, 135. The mentions of the river Amu here refer to the course of the Uzboy, which at times in this period had water in it and was apparently traversable by boat, as the Amu Darya was flowing largely towards the Caspian rather than the Aral. More on that if I do my Aral Sea post in the Steppe thread :p The same passage from Abulghazi is also covered, in paraphrase rather than full translation but with more modern language, in those Barthold sources.
the Ersari who lived in Balkhan
Barthold 1962, 134.
It was agreed that the Turkmans would give 1000 sheep for every tax-collector killed [fourty]; of the total the Ersari tribe and the Salor of Khorasan had to supply 16,000 each, while the remaining 8,000 were to be delivered by the Teke, the Sariq, and the Tomut who were jointly called “Outer Salor”. The following year the khan sent his tax-collectors and recived the agreed number of sheep in full; later he began to levy the same number every year
Barthold 1962, 137
Ebn Ḥawqal… mentioned another Dehestān situated on a peninsula jutting out from the eastern shore of the Caspian. In Ḥodūd al-ʿālam the latter was called Dehestān-e Sor (Sar?) and described as a resort only of fishermen and hunters of falcons and aquatic birds.
Bosworth, C. E. “DEHESTĀN,” Encyclopædia Iranica.
Yacút [Yaqut al-Hamawi], about A.D. 1225, has the following description of the south-east coast of the Caspian, taken almost word for word from Istakhri:- ‘As you coast along the sea-shore to the right hand from Abuskun [port in Gurgan, sunk below the rising Caspian before the game starts], there is no single town or village, except at a place about 50 farsakhs from Abuskun which is called Dehistán (in Istakhri, Dehistán-Basir, for Dehistán Bazar?), where there is a harbour built(?) in the sea, in which the ships take refuge from the violence of the waves and a considerable number of people are settled here from the neighbouring country occupied in fishing. They have good water.'
Rawlinson 1879, 163. Barthold is somewhat confused by these reports but says that “50 farsakhs from the mouth of the Gurgen could bring us to the Balkhan Bay” Barthold 1902. The situation is ultimately very unclear on whether the Muslim geographers were saying that there is a Dehistan-e-Sor in the north in addition to the main Dehistan further south or if some of them were just very confused about the location of Dehistan.

This next quote is a long one, get ready
We arrived the 8th of September at the south end of Idak [now Ogurja Ada, or Ogurchinskiy], the westermost of the Ogurtjoy islands, and coasted the east side of it… It is a long sandy island, which stretches itself about north and south. Near it is Deverish a barren island, which extends itself to north east and south west. The pilots affirmed this to have been formerly a high land; but now it is low, which we imputed to the rising of the water…. Idak has two wells of fresh water, and is inhabited by eight or ten families, who have a few sheep and goats.

We weighed and came in close under the east side of Naphtonia. The coast is difficult of access, the land being very high; it extends itself six or eight leagues north and south, and contains about 36 families, who have 28 large boats with several wells of Naptha. The harbour is on the east side of the island… there is a large bay to the eastward of them, almost as far as Balkhan hill [Mt Arlan, probably]. Naphtonia has plenty of sheep, wild goats, camels, and asses, with exceeding good water… The soil is fruitful, affording all manner of garden-stuff. There is an old mosque, to which the inhabitants come to worship. These people subsist entirely by piracy, making continual depredations on the neighbouring parts of Persia.

To remedy this evil, nadir shah some years since offered to forgive all that was past, and to receive them into his favour, if they would come and settle about Astrabad bay, where they might have lands and sell their Naptha to the inhabitants of that quarter. This they accepted, and carried on a brisk trade for about two years, selling their Naptha to the Persians, Turkumans, and roving Ousbegs, and purchasing provisions to supply the inhabitants of the islands. But… they grew tired of this way of living, and returned to their trade of piracy; so that Balkhan became a general rendezvous of robbers.
...
we weighed, and ran up the side of the island Dargan, which forms the south part of the bay, and extends near east and west. There is some rising ground on it, but no inhabitants, the land being barren and sandy. We continued sounding, and got up to a small island on the south side of the bay, called Dagadaw

The day after… designing also to go on shore on the main land for fresh water. Our pilot carried use to two springs, where there were many tracks of camels and sheep. The water was brackish; and yet the Turkumans and their cattle drink of it.

Our pilots informed us that… the inhabitants keep 10 fishing boats in a bay about half a day’s journey to the northward [I believe this is Garabogazkol, or near it], which the Persians call Obb Maysey. Here they catch plenty of fish not only for their own use, but likewise for sale to the Turkumans and roving tartars. The Russians pretend there is a whirlpool in this bay, but this is denied by the Turkumans, who affirm they fish all over it.

the deepest [water] is close along the island Dargan, which runs up near the foot of the mountain of Balkhan, between which and the island there is a little channel of five feet water.​
Hanway 1753, 133-6

1727428191993.png
The region on Elton & Woodroofe 1753. North is to the right. This map was made for and appears in the Hanway book alongside the text quoted above. Elton and Woodroofe sailed on and charted the Caspian.

In the 12th/18th century the activity of such pirates reached a peak. Their principal haunts were located on the rocky coasts surrounding the bay of Balḵān (Krasnovodsk), on cape Čeleken, and in the neighboring islands (Dargān island, the Ogūrtjoy/Ogurchinskiĭ islands). Between raids the pirates lived from fishing.
de Planhol, Xavier. “CASPIAN SEA i. GEOGRAPHY,” Encyclopædia Iranica.

Some 18th century European maps follow – of course many of these maps are derived from the sources I just quoted, or are copying each other, or are plain inaccurate, but it’s a little extra visualization.
1727428438192.png
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1727428447987.png
d’Anville 1737de Vaugondy 1753d’Anville 1754Santini & Remondini 1779

A discussion on the Caspian Shoreline
You might be wondering why there are four versions of the Caspian locations I proposed, and why the Elton and Woodroofe map looks nothing like the modern region. That’s because the Caspian has had a quite unstable water level. At the time of the start of the game, and also in the mid 1700s when Hanway was writing, the water level was quite high (Leroy et al 2022) and would have covered some of the low points in what is now the Cheleken peninsula. Cheleken peninsula in fact seems to have not been a peninsula until the 20th century, rather being an island (and, judging by some of the things I saw while searching for sources here, might be on its way back towards an island).

1727428501553.png
Chart from Leroy et al 2022, showing Caspian water level estimates over time.

Hanway, Elton, and Woodroofe weren’t inventing things on their map – we can see similar things, though less extreme, on a map in Rawlinson 1879.
1727428550103.png
And we can even see the previous islands on a modern elevation map; the following are the same elevation map colored at three scales; one highly compressed to amplify small changes at low elevations (left), one at a normal scale (right), and one in between (center). All have been rotated so that north is to the right, as on the Elton and Woodroofe map, and you can see the higher elevations that map out the same pattern of islands as Elton and Woodroofe drew.
1727428191993.png
1727428636626.png
1727428650830.png
1727428657811.png

So as for the four proposals at the top: the leftmost is just the current shoreline from the Tinto Map, which is the modern shoreline. Then we have a small change, patterned after the Rawlinson map, with Cheleken (Naphtonia, in Hanway) as an island but Dargan only a peninsula. Then one with both Cheleken and Dargan as islands but the coastline south of Dargan hewing closer to Rawlinson and the modern day. The rightmost is the most extreme change, modeled entirely on Hanway. My preference is for one of the middle two, as they strike a balance for a shoreline that saw a lot of variance over the course of the game.

Merv
1727428694021.png

One new location: Khurmuzfarra. Suggested attributes as follows

ProvinceAreaClimateVegetationTopographyCultureReligionRaw material
MervEastern
Horasan
Cold AridSparseFlatlandTajikSunniUnsure, perhaps wheat as it’s on an oasis which is farmed

This is modified from arch4ngelsk’s suggestion. I have deleted Geok-Gumbuz, as the location of its namesake is highly unclear and almost the entirety of the drawn area in their suggestion is desert and occupied only by caravansarais. Also, seemingly the main role of Geok-Gumbuz in their proposal is to fill the narrow arm connecting Merv and Amol, but that area consisted of a road through the desert connected by caravansarais and probably shouldn’t be represented by its own location or by wide borders.

I have retained the Khurmuzfarra location, as the namesake can be placed precisely well within the shape and it is labeled as “major city” in one source (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan 2023, 633). I have significantly redrawn the shape compared to arch4ngelsk’s suggestion: the northern border has been moved southward to align better with the border between the oasis and the desert, and the eastern arm which connects to Amol has been given to this location. The borders of that eastern arm have also been pushed to the north so that they properly enclose the medieval road from Merv to Amol, which can be well placed based on the ruins of caravanserais along that road (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan 2023). The existing arm mostly follows the current paved road, which is further south than the medieval road (William & Wordsworth 2008).

The borders of Merv would remain as they are, except for where the new Khurmuzfarra location supersedes them.

However, considering the extent to which Merv was the center of gravity of the area, I don't think it's egregious if you stick to one location. It might mainly be a decision of how big you want the location(s) in this oasis to be. If you decide to leave this region as one location only, I would still suggest pushing the borders of the eastern arm to the north as described above, to properly cover the location of the medieval road.

Khwarazm-Jand Corridor
1727428857061.png

A corridor should exist connecting Jand to the core of Khwarazm oasis. I consider this probably the most important change in this comment, considering the historical importance of the connection and the massive impact it will have on gameplay connections in the region. This road is regularly mentioned in the sources as a route for armies, and there were even periods where Jand was subject to Khwarazm.

As the sources I have seen do not really discuss the precise route of the road, or where it terminates in Khwarazm, I have drawn the eastern part starting at Jand as curving along the Janadarya River (since that seems reasonable), and once that ends I simply drew the shortest route across the desert. There is also mention in the sources of a road between Jankent/Yanikant (which is along the Syr Darya further north than this map covers, and seemingly ceased to exist prior to the start of the game) and Khwarazm, but since Jand and Jankent were close to each other and likely part of the same network I’m treating them as one here in terms of quoting sources.

Note many of these quotes are about times shortly before the Mongol Invasion, and therefore outside the time frame of the game, but that’s because that is a period where there are comparatively plenty of written records and the locations in question were regional power centers. I see no indication that the corridor would have become impassible by the time of the game.

From Yanikant to Khorezmia was reckoned ten days’ journey​
Barthold 1968, 178
the march from Jand to Khorezmia was considered possible only in winter
Barthold 1968, 298 – but note further down a successful traversal in summer.
an expedition from Khorzemia into Jand and Sawran was undertaken
Barthold 1968, 314
… he [Atsiz, Khwarazmshah] was at last able to leave Khorezmia with his army. The steppe lying between Khorezmia and Jand was traversed in a single week...

[in a footnote:] It is remarkable that, contrary to custom, the expedition from Khorezmia to Jand was undertaken during the hot season.​
Barthold 1968, 328-9
the Khwarazm-shah made an expedition to Sighnaq against Qayir-Tuqu-khan, who, on learning of the arrival of a Khorzemian army in Jand, took to flight… The Khwarazm-shah returned to Khorezmia in eighteen days
Barthold 1968, 342-3
in consequence of this Muhammad [Muhammad II, Khwarazmshah] did not stay long on Khorezmia, and set out with an army for Jand.
Barthold 1968, 356
From the south-east Jaghatay’s and Uguday’s corps, with the thousands of the right wing, advanced on Khwarazm through Bukhara, while Juchi’s corps advanced from Jand in the north-east.
Barthold 1968, 433
During these apocalyptical events Jochi, the eldest son of Chingiz Khan, temporarily used Jand as a base for his campaign against Khwarazm itself.
Golev 2021, 47
Direct southern contacts [from Jankent] to the civilization of Khwarazm on the river Amu-Darya are evident in pottery and architecture.
Harke & Azhantseva 2021, 55

1727429140277.png
Map of tenth century towns and travel routes, from Harke & Azhantseva 2021, 57

Nurota-Zemukh Corridor
1727429195870.png

This is a much more tenuous suggestion that can easily be rejected, but it’s kind of fun so I thought I’d include it. It’s based on a road from a place near Otrar to Nurata, whose brief moment in the spotlight was a use by the Mongols, and then being traveled by a writer, both prior to the game’s time frame. It then may have been in continued use after, but it’s not really clear.

In Zarnuq [somewhere in the vicinity of Otrar] there were some Turkmens who led the Mongols to Nūr[ata] by a hitherto unknown road, which from this date received the name of ‘the Khan’s road.’ Juwaynī travelled along it in 1251. It has been held by persons acquainted with these regions that the campaigns… compel the assumption that the nature of the country has changed considerably since their time, as ‘at the present day there is no road whatsoever between Nur-ata and the estuaries of the river Arys [by Otrar], not even a caravan route; between these two points stretches the waterless Kyzylkum desert.’ This opinion has subsequently been rebutted, as caravan routes exist even at the present day between Utrār [Otrar] and Nūr[ata].
Barthold 1968, 408

Samangan-Kahmard Border Connection
1727429285835.png

These two provinces should have their borders connect. A road between Balkh and Bamyan used in the era passed through here. The orange box is drawn at roughly the point where the actual road lies, but of course you could draw the connection over a larger border area as well. I have left the town of Madar marked on the map as it’s mentioned in the quotes below and is the primary evidence for drawing this connection.
At the present time the usual way from Balkh to Bāmyān is through Khulm; the Arabic geographers had evidently another road in view, namely, that ascending the river of Balkh, and thence west to the junction with the road from Khulm. On this road the only town mentioned is Madar, six days’ journey from Balkh, and four from Bāmyān. A village of that name still exists to-day on the road from Khulm, seventy miles from Bāmyān; somewhat to the north of the present village, on the left of the road (if it is approached from the north) the ruins of the ancient town of Madar are visible.
Barthold 1968, 68
There was yet another road to Bāmiyān—through the valley of the Khulm river, which becomes narrower again above Haybak, and through several mountain passes, of which the southernmost one, Aq Rabat, is still considered to be the border between Kabulistan and Afghan Turkestan. The tenth-century geographers only briefly mention this road from Balkh to Bāmiyān, and reckon six days of travel from Balkh to the town of Mādar, and from there four more days to Bāmiyān. The settlement of Mādar still exists, and in its vicinity one can see the ruins of the old town. The mention of Mādar shows that the road in question is the one that leads from the valley of the Balkh Ab into that of the Khulm river, and not the still more arduous road upstream along the Balkh Ab to its source
Barthold 1984, 23-24

If you go to Madar, Afghanistan in Google Maps and go to satellite view you can follow the road heading north through the passes towards the Khulm River.

Renames
Kunya-UrgenchUrgench: I already posted this one. Kunya here means “old,” and “new” Urgench wasn’t founded until the 19th century. The city is called just plain “Urgench” (with various spellings) in all sources relating to the period of the game, even maps from the 18th century. Also the Persian dynamic name should be Gurgānj; it appears all over the place in the sources.

Kerki → Zamm: Zamm was the medieval name of this location. I am unable to find exactly when the name changed, but it is still called Zamm on maps from the 18th century and even one outlier from the 19th century, so I suspect it was Zamm for much of the game period. The complicating factor here is that one period source called it “Karkūh,” so it’s also possible that both names co-existed during this period. Nevertheless, the modern sources all call it Zamm in that era and most period sources seem to as well.
On the Amu-Darya below Kālif were the towns of Zamm and Akhsīsak, the first on the left, the second on the right bank of the river, five days’ journey from Tirmidh and four from Āmul (Charjuy), i.e. evidently on the site of the present fortress of Kerki…. In enumerating the crossings of the Amu-Darya Maqdisī mentions neither Zamm nor Akhsīsak; the Kerki crossing is called by him Karkūh, and opposite Karkūh, on the right bank of the river, was the Bānkar (or Bāykar) crossing.
Barthold 1968, 80
the town of Zamm, now Kerki
Barthold 1984, 19
the town of Zamm, the modern Kerki
Bosworth, C. E. “ĀMOL (ĀMŪYA),” in Encyclopædia Iranica

Zamm on maps
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de l’Isle & Bauche 1745de Vaugondy 1753Reichard 1817

Sources
Texts

If there's a link it's to an open access article.

Abu al-Ghazi Bahadur. A General History of the Turks, Moguls and Tatars, Vulgarly Called Tartars: Together with a Description of the Countries They Inhabit. Vol. 1. London: J.and J. Knapton, 1729. http://archive.org/details/39020025955496-ageneralhistory. This is an 18th century translation into English from the French translation from the original Chagatai. I’m sure it’s not an ideal version but there doesn’t seem to have been any later translations and I don’t speak Chagatai.

Barthold, V. V. “Information about the Aral Sea and the Lower Reaches of the Amudarya from Ancient Times to the XVII Century.” 1902. Published in Russian as “Сведения об Аральском море и низовьях Амударьи с древнейших времен до XVII века”; I put the original through Google Translate for my quotes.

Barthold, V. V. Four Studies on the History of Central Asia. Translated by V. Minorsky and T. Minorsky. Vol. 3. Leiden: Brill, 1962. https://archive.org/details/dli.pahar.3200.

Barthold, V. V. Turkestan Down to the Mongol Invasion. Edited by Clifford Edmund Bosworth. 3rd ed. New Delhi, India: Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 1968. The 2nd edition, which I think is largely the same, is available at https://archive.org/details/Barthold1928Turkestan.

Barthold, V. V. An Historical Geography of Iran. Translated by Svat Soucek. Princeton University Press, 1984.

Golev, Konstantin. “The Cities along the Syr Darya in 11th–13th Cc.: Jand and Sïghnaq between the Cuman-Qïpchaqs and the Khwārazmshāhs Anushteginids.” Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae 74, no. 1 (2021): 11–52.

Hanway, Jonas. An Historical Account of the British Trade Over the Caspian Sea: With a Journal of Travels from London through Russia into Persia; and Back Again through Russia, Germany and Holland. Vol. 1. London: Dodsley, etc., 1753. http://archive.org/details/b30414702_0001.

Härke, Heinrich, and Irina Arzhantseva. “Interfaces and Crossroads, Contexts and Communications: Early Medieval Towns in the Syr-Darya Delta (Kazakhstan).” Journal of Urban Archaeology 3 (2021): 51–63. https://doi.org/10.1484/J.JUA.5.123675.

Leroy, S.A.G., P.J. Reimer, H.K. Lahijani, A. Naderi Beni, E. Sauer, F. Chalié, K. Arpe, et al. “Caspian Sea Levels over the Last 2200 Years, with New Data from the S-E Corner.” Geomorphology 403 (2022): 108136. https://amu.hal.science/hal-03580639.

Encyclopædia Iranica https://iranicaonline.org

Rawlinson, H. C. “The Road to Merv.” Proceedings of the Royal Geographical Society and Monthly Record of Geography 1, no. 3 (1879): 161–91. https://doi.org/10.2307/1800653.

Williams, Tim, and Paul Wordsworth. “Merv to the Oxus: a desert survey of routes and surviving archaeology.” Archaeology International 12, no. 1 (2008). https://journals.uclpress.co.uk/ai/article/id/1198/.

Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan. “Silk Roads: Zarafshan-Karakum Corridor: Serial Transnational World Heritage Nomination.” UNESCO, 2023. https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1675/documents/. This is the "Nomination Text" document on that site.

Maps
all links go to high-res interactive viewers

Reichard, C.G. Persien. In: Gaspari, A.C. Allgemeiner Hand-Atlas der Ganzen Erde. 1817. https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~276116~90049324:XLIII--Persia

d’Anville, Jean-Baptiste Bourguignon. Carte La Plus Generale et qui comprend La Chine, La Tartarie Chinoise, et le Thibet, Dressee sur les Carte Particulierees des RR PP Jesuites. 1737. https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/61775op/carte-la-plus-generale-et-qui-comprend-la-chine-la-tartarie-danville

de Vaugondy, Robert. Etats du Grand-Seigneur en Asie, Empire de Perse, Pays des Usbecs, Arabie et Egypte. 1753. https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/se...80~490059:Etats-du-Grand-Seigneur-en-Asie,-Em

de l’Isle, Guillaume, and Philippe Bauche. Carte de la Turquie de l’Arabie et de la Perse. 1745. https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/de...bie-et-de-la-perse-dressee-sur-delisle-buache

Elton, John, and Thomas Woodroofe. A Plain Chart of the Caspian-Sea, According to the Observations of Capt. John Elton, Author of Elton's Quadrant, and Thomas Woodroofe, Master of the British Ship Empress of Russia, Who navigated this Sea three years; Presented to Mr. Jonas Hanway of St. Petersburgh in 1745 by his most Obedient Servant Thomas Woodroofe. 1753. https://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/caspian-gibson-1753

Santini, Paolo, and Giovanni Antonio Remondini. Carte de L’Empire de Perse. 1779. https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/de...te-de-lempire-de-perse-1779-santini-remondini



Now I just have to compile the dynamic naming list that I accidentally created by reading so many sources :)



We now return to your regularly scheduled Georgian programming
 
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