Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[giorgi1999]

I mean the fact that they were important after the dissolution of Georgia, and already existed at the start date, really makes me feel like the simplest way to represent them is to have them exist at the start date.

There's a parallel to be drawn with France, which I'm pretty sure has different "levels" of vassals from more autonomous to less autonomous. People would complain a lot if all of the vassals weren't in the game even though most of them were really not very autonomous and they occupy a lot of France's territory. This case feels similar.

I mean at that point Ican easily justify further divisions of Georgia.

 

[Ispil]

I mean at that point Ican easily justify further divisions of Georgia.

Honestly I'd love to hear a full detailed breakdown of the various duchies and semi-autonomous divisions of the Kingdom of Georgia. Frankly I can't find squat, at least with my (admittedly limited) search efforts.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Honestly I'd love to hear a full detailed breakdown of the various duchies and semi-autonomous divisions of the Kingdom of Georgia.

There's this amazing map I found that shows the very entrenched nature of feudalism at the height of Georgia's empire:

Though this is a good ~130 years before the start date.

 

[Ispil]

Makes me wonder how much of that evolved after the Mongol invasions, aside from just territorial losses.

 

[giorgi1999]

There's this amazing map I found that shows the very entrenched nature of feudalism at the height of Georgia's empire:

View attachment 1189355

Though this is a good ~130 years before the start date.

Yeah the situation was different back then.

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

View attachment 1189324

Hemşin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hemşin (Armenian: Համշէն Hamshen or Համամաշէն Hamamashen, literally "Hamam's Hamlet";

https://mapcarta.com/13827560

Looking at how the rize location is set up it would be a one province minor most likely paradox will have to split rize in two to make this (they should)

 

[racnes]

I kept it as Ani, as Aramenian gave the official names of the other titles. It would be strange to change Ani to Zakarids now that I changed the rest the other way around.

I'm not expert but I didn't see that country/state/structure named as Ani (if so, I'm not objecting), the Ani was the name of the capital city and maybe the name of the region for a time. Zakarids were ruling dynasty, just like many other countries named after dynasties, the Ani too in my opinion.

 

[racnes]

Looking at how the rize location is set up it would be a one province minor most likely paradox will have to split rize in two to make this (they should)

Yeah I also said Rize should splitted into two locations one name Rize and the other Atina

 

[giorgi1999]

Honestly I'd love to hear a full detailed breakdown of the various duchies and semi-autonomous divisions of the Kingdom of Georgia. Frankly I can't find squat, at least with my (admittedly limited) search efforts.

I'm on my phone now, maybe I'll write more in detail later today or tomorrow.

But my main point is that the king at this point in time centralized the kingdom and solidified his rule a lot .
It can be easily argued that this was the most unified Georgia was since the arrival of the mongols until its final dissolution.
Even if it didn't last too long after his death.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

I'm on my phone now, maybe I'll write more in detail later today or tomorrow.

But my main point is that the king at this point in time centralized the kingdom and solidified his rule a lot .
It can be easily argued that this was the most unified Georgia was since the arrival of the mongols until its final dissolution.
Even if it didn't last too long after his death.

If EU5 Project Caesar will have disasters, then the arrival of Tamerlane will certainly be one...

 

[racnes]

Personally I'm in the camp to just give that territory to Georgia proper rather than having another Georgian subject, and eventually Georgia will just wind up ceding that territory over.

I don't know how many other duchies existed in the Kingdom of Georgia at this time and how much autonomy each of them had, but my inclination after a quick perusal of the history is that if you're gonna bother with one duchy, you might as well balkanize the whole kingdom, in which case you might as well balkanize every feudal kingdom in the world. Probably better to just represent them with the noble estate, and some characters representing the various Georgian dynasties.

Samsthke was different and more independent than other duchies afaik. And I really think it should be a vassal then annexed by Georgia. I mean than we can say the same thing for Sutayids and Jalayirids vassals which Samsthke was even more independent compared to them.

 

[SuperLexxe]

I'm not expert but I didn't see that country/state/structure named as Ani (if so, I'm not objecting), the Ani was the name of the capital city and maybe the name of the region for a time. Zakarids were ruling dynasty, just like many other countries named after dynasties, the Ani too in my opinion.

Going by what Aramenian said and further reference from the Wiki:

I would assume the Zakarids would only further lean towards the "Kingdom of Ani" thing after becoming subject to the Mongols, who mostly left the Armenian lords to their own devices. Certainly to elevate themselves above their vassals, the Proshyans, Vachutians and the Amatuni

 

[Ispil]

Samsthke was different and more independent than other duchies afaik. And really think it should be a vassal then annexed by Georgia. I mean then we can say the same thing for Sutayids and Jalayirids vassals which Samsthke was even more independent compared to them.

I meant the Duchy of Tao, not Samsthke. Samsthke should absolutely be a vassal.

 

[racnes]

I meant the Duchy of Tao, not Samsthke. Samsthke should absolutely be a vassal.

Oh sorry. Yeah Tao can be given to Georgia, though I don't know how central the governance was there. Was it like other duchies in Georgia or some different

 

[Ispil]

Oh sorry. Yeah Tao can be given to Georgia, though I don't know how central the governance was there. Was it like other duchies in Georgia or some different

Yeah, details like that are where it all just turns into a bunch of question marks for me.

 

[Aramenian]

The name of the Kariyan dynasty that rules Larestan should be changed to Miladian or Lar.

Miladian dynasty - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Probably Bilad Khundj(Khonj)-u-Bal (or Fal) is a country ruled by the Banu Abbasi (Abbasid) dynasty

Abbasid Successor State of Khonj/Bastak

I understand that Cradle of Civilization has come and passed, but I came upon some interesting information about a certain state that existed during EU4's timeframe, an Abbasid successor state located first in Khonj, then Bastak, Persia. Before...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

It also seems that they first ruled the city of Khonj but lost their power over this city and founded the city of Bastak, their later capital.

Spoiler: Bastak

With regards to the Bastak khanate, Shaikh Mohamed Khan Bastaki was the first Abbasid ruler of Bastak to hold the title of "Khan" after the local people accepted him as a ruler, meaning "ruler" or "king", a title which was reportedly bestowed upon him by Karim Khan Zand.[171] The title then became that of all the subsequent Abbasid rulers of Bastak and Jahangiriyeh, and also collectively refers in plural form, i.e., "Khans", to the descendants of Shaikh Mohamed Khan Bastaki. The last Abbasid ruler of Bastak and Jahangiriyeh was Mohamed A'zam Khan Baniabbassian son of Mohamed Reza Khan "Satvat al-Mamalek" Baniabbasi. He authored the book Tarikh-e Jahangiriyeh va Baniabbassian-e Bastak (1960),[172] in which is recounted the history of the region and the Abbasid family that ruled it. Mohamed A'zam Khan Baniabbassian died in 1967, regarded as the end of the Abbasid reign in Bastak.

Abbasid Caliphate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Spoiler

The Sheikhs of Bani Abbasid and their children, who were in charge of the people's affairs, even though they were originally Arabs , but after entering Iran, they considered themselves Iranians and in all periods of history and life, they followed the ideals of martyrdom and patriotism, and were obedient to the central government, even for the victory of Iran in the wars in the Caucasus. They have sent and killed. They have fought against the aggressor Arabs in the southern ports.

محمدرضاخان بستکی - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد

fa.wikipedia.org

آل الخنجي - ويكيبيديا

ar.wikipedia.org

Spoiler

The important event of this period is the appearance of Sheikh Daniyal in this city. [ 17 ] Sheikh Daniyal has a great influence on the fate of Larestan and the ports and islands of the Persian Gulf by establishing the dynasty of Sheikh Daniyal in Khanj . [ 18 ] The Khanqah of Sheikh Daniyal was so famous in the seventh century that it was considered one of the four pillars of dervishes in southern Iran; [ 19 ] In such a way that his disciples enjoyed high respect in the court of Hormuz . In addition to these cases, the sovereignty of the Kish islands is also in the hands of the Khanjis and disciples of Sheikh Daniyal. [ 20 ]

On the other hand, in the 8th century of Hijri and the establishment of the Shamsiyya Tariqat under the leadership of Sheikh Muhammad Abunjam Khanji, Khanj enjoyed such great fame that it attracted the scholars and politicians of its era, including Emir of Isfahan Shah, Seyyed Sharif Jurjani and Sepahsalar Shah. And other scholars pointed out. [ 21 ]

The fame and popularity of the elders and scholars of this city in the court of Iran during the 8th and 9th centuries was so great that the rulers of Agh Qoyunlu and Timurid had exempted the lands belonging to the Khanj kings and especially Sheikh Muhammad Abunjam from taxes. And in this regard, Professor Oben cites a document that belongs to the Timurid court between the years 835 and 847, and the content of this document is that he handed over the monastery of Shams al-Din Muhammad Abunjam's uncle to Sheikh Muhammad Sikh al-Islam, and from the Timurid court, this something happens Also, the Sultan of Agh Qoyunlu Yaqoob Bey confirms that Ozon Hassan had given privileges to this city, and on the other hand, Sheikh Rozbahan Khanji, one of the prominent Iranian theorists and scientists and court minister who lived in the court of Agh Qoyunlu, confirmed that he was installed by his father to Khanj and from his mother. It belongs to the dynasty of Agh Qoyunlu, and its uncle was the minister of the king of Fars in Shiraz, and from this point of view, the place of birth of the sheikh is also mentioned in Shiraz. [ 22 ]

خنج - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد

fa.wikipedia.org

I'm not sure it would have been an independent country in 1337, it would have to be investigated further.

Bilad Khundj(Khonj)-u-Bal (or Fal) is mentioned here.

Spoiler: Lar

Its history before the 13th century is unknown. There are archaeological indications of the Sassanids . J. Aubin [1] gives a list of local princes of the family of Gurgin Milad who according to tradition would have received the territory of the mythical Kayànid sovereign Kay Khusraw when he retired from the world and distributed the Iranian countries among his dignitaries; until 1198 the data does not become precise. Between the 13th and 16th centuries, fifteen emirs succeeded each other from father to son. Ibn Battutapresents a divergent testimony, since according to him a Turkman sultan reigned in Lar and not a Miladid (descendant of Gurgin Milad), and this circumstance has some support in other sources. In the 16th century the last five reigns are of imprecise chronology.

According to Aubin the development of the island of Kays displaced trade eastward from the routes and ports of the Persian Gulf and this led to the emergence of new metropolises in the Garmsirat of Fars, first Fal or Bal, where probably they retreated the inhabitants of the ruined Siraf, threatened by pirates on the coast and by tribal nomads in the interior; then Khundj emerged at a junction of routes on the Kays-Xiraz axis with transversal to Lar and Hormuz. The Kurdish Fadlawàyhids who dominated eastern Fars dominated Lar in the 13th century and spread towards Kirman ; this episode Aubin attributes to the fight between the Shabankara and the Salghúridswhen Abu Bakr ibn Sad, the Salghurida, tried to dominate the gulf and collided with other local powers such as Muzaffar al-Din Shabankarai, or the island of Kays. It was probably in 1230/1231 when Muzaffar al-Din took over Lar and the territory up to the coast of the gulf as far as Kawristan, bordering the kingdom of Hormuz (to the east). It is not known how long his rule lasted. Around 1300 the dervishes of Khundj obtained from the traders of Tibi (the Tibis) the cession of the island of Djarun to Hormuz and they were ever grateful for the favor. Around 1330 Kays was occupied by Hormuz and the Gulf trade moved to this city; the Kays-Xiraz route was abandoned.

Ibn Battuta , who visited Lar in 1347 , describes it as a prosperous town, but it seems that it did not play an important political role. Mustawfi confirms Ibn Battuta's appreciation. All life in the city was organized based on trade. The hereditary sheikhs of the zawiya of Lar were originally from Khundj where in the 13th century a khanakak had been established whose murshid was Shaykh Danyal affiliated with the Murshidiyya (or Ishakiyya) tarika ; he was succeeded by Abu Dulaf Muhammad. When he visited the city Ibn Battuta mentions an undetermined Shafi'ite zawiya . The zawiyaof Danyal fell into decline in the fifteenth century but that of Abu Nadjmi flourished (perhaps the one seen by Ibn Battuta, but Muwahhid says that he visited the zawiya of the Banu Abbasi led by Hadjdj Shaykh Abd al-Salam Khundji Kutb al- Awliya (+ 1345 / 1346 ).

During the 14th century the garmsirats of Fars were divided into two political formations: the Bilad Lar and the Bilad Khundj-u-Bal (or Fal). The latter had friendly relations with the kingdom of Hormuz , while the other was his enemy and even tried to conquer Hormuz. Bilad Khundj-u-Bal had as its most notable family the Fali rais , later viziers in Hormuz (end of the 15th century when Khund had entered into decline) and they remained so until the end of Portuguese rule. Bilad Lar lacked military and intellectuals due to emigration to India , but a family of maliks ensured internal political cohesion. In the second half of the 15th centurya class of cultured notables was formed there. In the 15th century , Muzaffarid and Timurid coins are found in Lar .

Due to earthquakes (especially the one of 1440 combined with floods), the changes of alliances, the ruin of Karzin (on the route Khundj-Xiraz). the development of Djahrum as a religious center before 1500, and the founding of a dervish community at Ikhwanabad (later Kutabad) at a crossroads of the Shiraz-Fasa-Lar routes, led by Kutb al-Din Muhammad ibn Muhyi al -Din Kushknari known as Kutb-i Muhyi, they favored the axis Ormuz-Lar-Djahrum-Xiraz. In the garmsirats of Fars only the raisFali de Fal retained influence in the gulf where they had Shilaw. The princes of Lar took advantage of their position as a stage on the trade route to extend their authority to the coast and the intermediate valleys. Lar and Hormuz lived on trade with India and complemented each other but conflict was inevitable and broke out in 1498/1499 when the prince of Lar tried to encourage a Bedouin revolt in Djulfar against Hormuz. Abu Bakr Lari made an expedition against Djarun Island but was repulsed by Khʷadja Ata, a ghulam of Salghur Shah of Hormuz. Some time later, when Salghur Shah died ( 1505) the Larians again intervened in the affairs of Hormuz by attacking the island of Djarun again. But the new ruler of Hormuz, Khʷadja Ata, put an end to it by suppressing the infant king born to Salghur Shah and a princess from Lar. But the princes of Lar continued to spread along the coast; his vassals, the emirs of Ilud, exerted pressure on the Lashtan, the hinterland of the island of Kishm in Naband.; an emir seized Lahstan in 1546 . Despite the establishment of Safavid power throughout the 16th century , Lar and Hormuz remained concurrent.

In the 16th century , with the arrival of the Portuguese (after 1507 ), Lari merchants and mercenaries migrated en masse to the Décan . At that time the local silver currency, the lari or larin , ran throughout the Indian Ocean . The bows made in Lar were famous everywhere and were exported to India and Iraq. After Fal (with the laqab Dar-al-Fassa, "Home of Purity") and Khundj (with the laqab Dar -al-Awliyà, "Home of the Saints") it was the turn of Lar which received the laqab of Dar -al-Madalat ("Home of Equity").

In 1508 representatives of Lar and Hormuz went to pay homage to the Safavid shah Ismail I. The princes of Lar became tributaries of the Safavids with the title of Amir-i Diwan . In 1523 / 1524 a Portuguese embassy to Persia passed through Lar. A detailed account is given by António Tenreiro. The Venetian Michele Membré went from Shiraz to Hormuz via Lar and gave a description and says that the king, a vassal of the Safavids, was called Soprassi (sic) and that he wore the hood of the Duodecimans . The local king Anushirvwan ibn Abi Said ibn Ala al-Mulk, known by Shah Adil, was killed (June 24, 1541). He was succeeded by Ibrahim Khan who did not go to pay homage to the Safavid shahAbbas the Great when he went to Shiraz, and the relations were degraded, since they added other things like the mistreatment of Persian tax collectors, extraordinary collections from merchants and travelers, and others. In 1601 and 1602 the shah sent two expeditions to Lar led by Allah Wirdi Khan, beglerbegi of Fars. In the second expedition Lar was occupied and Ibrahim was taken to Shiraz and his goods confiscated including the supposed crown of Kay Khusraw. Allah Wirdi Khan sent the prisoners and the treasures to the shah, who at that time was on campaign in Badghis , near Herat . Ibrahim Khan died during the journey to Balkh from an epidemic that affected the troops.

Kadi Abu l-Kasim Lari, a Shia, was appointed governor of Lar. The tribute that Hormuz paid to Lar was claimed by Persia . To impose the payment Kanbar Ali Beg occupied the island of Kishm . In December 1614 the Beglerbegi of Fars, Imam Kuli Khan, seized the port of Gombron or Gombroon (Portuguese Comorão) and in the spring of 1622 Kuli Khan himself occupied the Kingdom of Hormuz with the help of the English fleet. the presence of a Castilian ambassador (Figueroa) at the Persian court (and the existence of a Persian ambassador at the Castilian court since 1617 ) did not prevent the Portuguese crown from losing Hormuz. Shortly after Gombroon was renamedBandar Abbas In 1630 the Portuguese obtained commercial facilities at Bandar Khung (8 km east of Bandar Linga ) which was populated by Arabs, Banyans , Portuguese and Persians and became an important port before 1640 .

Throughout the 17th century there are several descriptions of Lar from European travelers. By 1700 the government of Laristan had become a family business: the shahbandar of Bandar Khung was the brother of the shahbandar of Bandar Abbas and the latter of the khan of Lar who, according to Pereira Fidalgo, had under his jurisdiction Bandar Abbas, Bandar Khung and Bandar Rig (opposite of the island of Kharg). Laristan resisted the Afghan attacks. While the commercial route Shiraz-Lar-Bandar Abbas had become Shiite the rest of Laristan except in part the city of Lar remained Sunni Shafiite. Sunni sheikhs in Evas and Bastak, dominated the main fortresses. The Afghans failed to gain effective control of Laristan, which passed into the hands of a Baluchi chief, then a local notable, then a Safavid general, and then the Sardar of Fars, Muhammad Khan Baluç. This revolted against Nadir Khan, then Nadir Shah , who had the support of the Sunnis of Laristan. Nadir exercised ruthless repression and Muhammad Khan Baluç and Sheikh Ahmad Madani were executed, and thousands suffered fines and deportations.

Taking advantage of the anarchy, the bandit chief Nasir Khan Lari took power in the region of Buluk-i Saba (between Laristan and Kirman ) together initially with his brother Hadjdji Khan, and from this base he conquered Lar around 1747 . In 1750 he made an expedition to Shiraz (Hadjdji Khan died on the way), which failed, but he extended his rule to the coastal area by subjugating the Arab sheikhs and entered into relations with the British Company of East Indies established in Bandar Abbas. He came into conflict with Karim Khan Zand and between 1754 and 1766 he had to contend at the same time against the governor of Kirman in the northeast and against the Zandin the west He made an alliance with the Qajar chief Muhammad Hasan Khan (in 1756 and 1758 ) to attack Karim Khan in Shiraz. Finally SAadik Khan Zand conquered Lar and then the fortress of Nasir Khan ( 1766 ).

Laristan - Viquipèdia, l'enciclopèdia lliure

ca.wikipedia.org

Lar (Fars) - Viquipèdia, l'enciclopèdia lliure

ca.wikipedia.org

حکام لار - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد

fa.wikipedia.org

دلیل عدم حمله به لارستان در سالهای قدیم از نگاه ژئوپلیتیکی چیست؟/علت مهاجرت لارستانی‌ها به کشورهای عربی

mldl.ir

 

[Katana500]

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For the division of Gilan, by @ZigTheNorweigan. The land was very fragmented and it could hardly be called unified. More a defensive pact:

• Lahijan, ruled by the Naservand/Nasirwand clan, holds overlordship of Fuman has dynastic ties to Ranekouh. This makes Lahijan likely the most powerful of the Gilani lords
  • Fuman is said to have been subject to the lord of Lahijan
    
• Ranekouh, is said to share the same clan as Lahijan, but not explicitly stated to be under the same rule
  
  
• Tulam: When the Ilkhanate invaded Gilan under Öljeitu in 1306-7, it is said the ruler of Tulam was the one to surround and destroy the invading force, killing their commander Qutlugh Shah. Tulam was not the richest of the Gilani lords, but he had a force of 1000 mounted troops, which gave him considerable influence over the neighbouring lords
  
  
• Rasht is regarded as one of the other significant powers of Gilan

View attachment 1189281

"Rulers of Gilan" (1920)

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Maybe Gilan should be a defensive pact IO of these small states!

 

[Linbot#6018]

Maybe Gilan should be a defensive pact IO of these small states!

I feel like this should happen if you have a group of small states of the same culture. Albania is another example.

 

[Katana500]

I feel like this should happen if you have a group of small states of the same culture. Albania is another example.

Circassia is another one where an IO of small states might work better than a unified tag. Im not certain it was unified confederation yet at start date.

 

[Ispil]

Circassia is another one where an IO of small states might work better than a unified tag. Im not certain it was unified confederation yet at start date.

You're giving me war flashbacks right now, back on the M&T team trying to figure out what the hell to put in the Caucasus for 1356. 1337 isn't any better.

I don't envy the people responsible for figuring out what the hell is there in 1337, because when I tried, I gave up.